Larry Brown - claims SC vetting Franklin

AMLTrojan

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Absolutely. Both kids and their parents know and care about it.

Penn State is a program with a rich history, but it's not top 5 all-time certainly and arguably not even top 10. So expecting them to bring in a top recruiting class every year, on top of the pedo scandal, is asking a lot.
And so how did Baylor manage to win the NCAA tournament given their equally awful scandals from the same era?

Penn State recruiting under Franklin has consistently been the #2 Big Ten program in recruiting rankings behind Ohio State and ahead of Michigan, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. Ironically that is about where Penn State was on average in the last few years of JoePa before the wheels came off. Then there was an extended run of mediocrity after JoePa until Franklin arrived. So bottom line, their current recruiting is consistent with where they've been historically. Which tells me the pedo scandal is now having virtually no impact on recruiting.

As far as Penn State's place all time, I'm not one for Top Ten lists -- to me, USC is #1 and everyone else can argue where they fall after that. But I will say, having lived on the East Coast for 13 years now, that Penn State is the preeminent football school north of Knoxville and east of Columbus. Nobody has a bigger draw in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast ... and that is a MASSIVE recruiting footprint and fanbase that frankly dwarfs our own. Far more people east of the Mississippi think about Penn State as a potential college destination (for academics or sports) than USC.

To summarize my position: Penn State is a rock-solid football powerhouse with the right coach. That said, I'm not convinced Franklin will take them to the promised land, and he's not my first choice for USC.
 

AMLTrojan

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They will never end up number 1 they don’t have the base to do that so your whole point is dumb to begin with. Penn State is recruiting at the highest level it ever has period. The points some of you try to make against the man are literally dumb as hell. Penn state has never had a top 5 class before Franklin ever. He had Vandy ranked in the 20s...
JoePa had a #1 class two decades ago. Do you research.
 

qqqqqqqman

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Currently listed at # 1, but only because Penn St got most of their slots filled early. When the rest of the teams fill out their slots, Penn St will likely slide down to the # 10 Class Nationally.

And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a #10 class.

With MAYBE a nod to the #1 and #2 classes, there is very likely no on-field difference between a Top5, Top8, or Top10 class without the coaching to accompany it. They are basically all the same-type players walking onto campus.

.
 
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TrojanFireHorse12

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And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a #10 class.

With MAYBE a nod to the #1 and #2 classes, there is very likely no on-field difference between a Top5, Top8, or Top10 class without the coaching to accompany it. They are basically all the same-type players walking onto campus.

.
Agreed a lot of the numbers and grades are pretty arbitrary, a lot of the players are pretty comparable in terms of raw talent or lack there of. There's a prototype and most of the top classes fit or hit those criteria depending on the direction of the program in question.
 

HOFFA

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And so how did Baylor manage to win the NCAA tournament given their equally awful scandals from the same era?

Penn State recruiting under Franklin has consistently been the #2 Big Ten program in recruiting rankings behind Ohio State and ahead of Michigan, Nebraska, Wisconsin, etc. Ironically that is about where Penn State was on average in the last few years of JoePa before the wheels came off. Then there was an extended run of mediocrity after JoePa until Franklin arrived. So bottom line, their current recruiting is consistent with where they've been historically. Which tells me the pedo scandal is now having virtually no impact on recruiting.

As far as Penn State's place all time, I'm not one for Top Ten lists -- to me, USC is #1 and everyone else can argue where they fall after that. But I will say, having lived on the East Coast for 13 years now, that Penn State is the preeminent football school north of Knoxville and east of Columbus. Nobody has a bigger draw in the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast ... and that is a MASSIVE recruiting footprint and fanbase that frankly dwarfs our own. Far more people east of the Mississippi think about Penn State as a potential college destination (for academics or sports) than USC.

To summarize my position: Penn State is a rock-solid football powerhouse with the right coach. That said, I'm not convinced Franklin will take them to the promised land, and he's not my first choice for USC.

Baylor is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. Baylor didn't win because they were bringing in top 10 recruiting classes every year (they weren't). And anyway, I never said a program with a checkered past is incapable of ever winning a championship. We're simply talking about Franklin's recruiting prowess here.

Re: the bolded -- so then you agree with me, Franklin is a good recruiter?

I don't think the name Penn State means much of anything to 18-year-olds today, and most of their parents were in grade school the last time Penn State was a perennially relevant title contender. The most enduring memory for most of these people is going to be the pedo scandal. As I look at the yearly recruiting rankings I can't really spot many programs I would expect Penn State should be finishing ahead of with any regularity.
 
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AMLTrojan

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Baylor is wholly irrelevant to this discussion. Baylor didn't win because they were bringing in top 10 recruiting classes every year (they weren't). And anyway, I never said a program with a checkered past is incapable of ever winning a championship. We're simply talking about Franklin's recruiting prowess here.

Re: the bolded -- so then you agree with me, Franklin is a good recruiter?

I don't think the name Penn State means much of anything to 18-year-olds today, and most of their parents were in grade school the last time Penn State was a perennially relevant title contender. The most enduring memory for most of these people is going to be the pedo scandal. As I look at the yearly recruiting rankings I can't really spot many programs I would expect Penn State should be finishing ahead of with any regularity.
Baylor is relevant IRT any discussion of the pedo scandal being a legit issue for contemporary recruits because it's the closest thing we have to a like-for-like situation with another school.

Franklin has brought Penn State back to where Penn State was in recruiting from before the pedo scandal. Does that make him a great recruiter? Maybe. He's certainly par for what a Penn State coach ought to be able to do recruiting-wise. I think recruiting is definitely one of Franklin's strengths, but it takes more than recruiting to win a natty.

As far your perspective on what Penn State's history and stature means to recruits, your position doesn't align with the recruiting data we've been talking about, but in any case I congratulate you on your exceptional mind-reading capabilities.
 

CP619

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On November 21, 2020 after losing to Iowa, Penn State's record dropped to 0–5, the worst start in the program's history, dating to 1887.

Hire him!
 

HOFFA

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Baylor is relevant IRT any discussion of the pedo scandal being a legit issue for contemporary recruits because it's the closest thing we have to a like-for-like situation with another school.

Franklin has brought Penn State back to where Penn State was in recruiting from before the pedo scandal. Does that make him a great recruiter? Maybe. He's certainly par for what a Penn State coach ought to be able to do recruiting-wise. I think recruiting is definitely one of Franklin's strengths, but it takes more than recruiting to win a natty.

As far your perspective on what Penn State's history and stature means to recruits, your position doesn't align with the recruiting data we've been talking about, but in any case I congratulate you on your exceptional mind-reading capabilities.


Once again, Baylor didn't win the title because they were bringing in top-ranked recruiting classes. They have not been bringing in top-ranked recruiting classes. I'm sure they won for a myriad of reasons, but recruiting blue-chip high school talent was not one of them. So how do they have any relevance toward Penn State's recruiting?

Not only are my mind-reading capabilities strong, but my actual reading capabilities are too. So to be clear, I didn't say Franklin is a great recruiter. Maybe he is. But I said a good recruiter. What you think about Franklin as a recruiter depends on what you think the Penn State name is worth as a program in 2021. Their recruiting finishes have, in my mind, been strong in comparison to where I feel the stature of their program is today. There's always going to be outlier seasons, but by-and-large I don't see any schools finishing ahead of them perennially in recruiting where I sit back and go "wow, how did THEY get a better class than Penn State?"
 

uscfd

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Bohn listed "character" and "integrity" as his first two qualifications.
Remember when ucla hired Steve Alford as their BB coach? His handling of a rape case from two jobs earlier was in the media for weeks.
Just do a search for "James Franklin football scandals" and take a look. Besides the Vanderbilt rapes, there are other issues more recent - like 2019.
Not hard to find.
Same for Bieniemy - and Meyer.

Keep looking.
 

AMLTrojan

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Once again, Baylor didn't win the title because they were bringing in top-ranked recruiting classes. They have not been bringing in top-ranked recruiting classes. I'm sure they won for a myriad of reasons, but recruiting blue-chip high school talent was not one of them. So how do they have any relevance toward Penn State's recruiting?
Baylor's 2021 class (with commitments dated from Summer 2020) was 15th nationally, 2nd in Big 12. That's pretty good for basketball, where you're competing with hundreds more schools for top talent than in football.

Scott Drew has been steadily bringing in stronger classes. Clearly the past program notoriety was not a deterrent to his success in recruiting and playing winning basketball.

The kids these days are affected by these early 2000s scandals about as much as they're affected by memories of 9/11.
 

HOFFA

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Baylor's 2021 class (with commitments dated from Summer 2020) was 15th nationally, 2nd in Big 12. That's pretty good for basketball, where you're competing with hundreds more schools for top talent than in football.

Scott Drew has been steadily bringing in stronger classes. Clearly the past program notoriety was not a deterrent to his success in recruiting and playing winning basketball.

The kids these days are affected by these early 2000s scandals about as much as they're affected by memories of 9/11.

Yes, so the 2021 class is for incoming freshman this season. Meaning it did not contribute at all to the national title team you keep referencing.
 

AMLTrojan

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Yes, so the 2021 class is for incoming freshman this season. Meaning it did not contribute at all to the national title team you keep referencing.
Again though, the topic was relevance of old scandals on the ability of these programs/coaches to recruit. Drew pulled in that class before the title run. In fact he'd pulled in similarly high-ranked classes within just a few years of the scandal. So even stronger evidence that recruits have short memories.
 

HOFFA

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Again though, the topic was relevance of old scandals on the ability of these programs/coaches to recruit. Drew pulled in that class before the title run. In fact he'd pulled in similarly high-ranked classes within just a few years of the scandal. So even stronger evidence that recruits have short memories.

Sure, they're able to sometimes pull in a good class. I never said it's impossible to recruit at Penn State. Just that there can be an added level of difficulty because of the stain which I believe still exists on the program. I don't think what occurred at Baylor rises to the level of the Penn State coverup, not by any stretch. So while it's a comparison in the sense that both have major scandals in their rearview mirror, it's not apples to apples.

Regardless, even if you take the scandal out of the equation completely and assume no kids or parents care about it in 2021, I think you can look at Penn State's recruiting finishes and say Franklin is doing a good job there. Probably as good a job as anyone not named Saban would be. They're finishing right about where they should most years, and that's not taking into account how much you do or do not want to weigh the pedo scandal against their reputation.
 

Redondo Beach SC

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Well, yeah, I can only go by where they are now. You don’t get even an interim #1 class of 24 recruits without being a solid recruiter.

After PERHAPS the Top2 classes, there’s little on-the-field difference between having a Top5 vs. Top10 recruiting class anyway. ”Star systems” only go so far in final product….that’s where coaching comes in.

.
If they announced Franklin before ESD I think we might have the number one class in the country. If he could cherry pick from his Penn State class and combine it with the best of what we have, add a few of the local players here who wouldn't commit to coach Bozo but would be definitely interested under Franklin... It really could be an epic first signing day.
 

LDIABootney

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Fickell DOES have championship experience though, under Meyer.

He's got one of them rangs.
You know that's some bullsh*t right?
So now what you did as an assistant counts?
GTFOH.
So anyone who won a title as an assistant should be a candidate? How does that sound? Cause I got a lot of candidates who won titles as an assistant.
 
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LDIABootney

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Who beat Urban Meyer?
James Franklin has. Since who a coach lost to counts. Why not who they've defeated.
Meyer lost 9 times as HC at Ohio State.
The coaches who defeated him are....

Dabo Swinney
Mark Dantonio
James Franklin
Kirk Ferentz
Lincoln Riley
Jeff Brohm

That's it.
 

TrojanFireHorse12

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James Franklin has. Since who a coach lost to counts. Why not who they've defeated.
Meyer lost 9 times as HC at Ohio State.
The coaches who defeated him are....

Dabo Swinney
Mark Dantonio
James Franklin
Kirk Ferentz
Lincoln Riley
Jeff Brohm

That's it.
But was it consistent? though I'd say penn state had a stretch were they played them super close. Though he's still 1-6.

Maybe he makes it 2-6? or 1-7. We'll see.
 

EugeneTrojan

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Franklin has out recruited Brian Kelly, slightly, during his tenure at psu. If you omit his first year and include what will probably happen in 2022, it’s not very close.
 
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EugeneTrojan

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Maybe but he has to beat out other coaching candidates. He can't be the final option regardless of how this team does in this season, long term is what we should be thinking. Not in the moment. Players will scream for him but they also screamed for Hugs to be Head Coach and we know how that turned out. Of course they are different ppl and Donte seems to be have a lot of connections. But we may want avoid repeating 2015.
Imagine a franklin/donte recruiting duo. Talk about taking back the west. There would be a lot of eskimos buying ice, a lot of lumber mills buying sawdust, and a lot of catsup popsicles being eaten by women in white gloves.
 
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TrojanFireHorse12

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Imagine a franklin/donta recruiting duo. Talk about taking back the west. There would be a lot of eskimos buying ice, a lot of lumber mills buying sawdust, and a lot of catsup popsicles being eaten by women in white gloves.
Almost anyone with a pulse that knows how to recruit would kill it with Donte. No one would stop them and if they add on more elite recruiting staff members and developers? it may not take one year to go 11-1 or 10-2 and then on to a big season. For the foreseeable future.
 
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LDIABootney

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Franklin reminds me of another rah rah frat guy like Sark and Kiff. I just dont want another puffy chested coach here. I want a program builder and player developer.
What was Pete Carroll?
Was he not a rah rah guy?
Had he built a program?
I know Franklin won at Vanderbilt.
How many HC'S do you think could win there?
Was that program built already?
 

qqqqqqqman

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Franklin reminds me of another rah rah frat guy like Sark and Kiff. I just dont want another puffy chested coach here. I want a program builder and player developer.

I gotta agree with ‘Boot….from times I’ve seen Franklin, he’s intense and demanding, but a more grown up teacher than Kiff/Sark ever showed.

.
 
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AMLTrojan

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Almost anyone with a pulse that knows how to recruit would kill it with Donte. No one would stop them and if they add on more elite recruiting staff members and developers? it may not take one year to go 11-1 or 10-2 and then on to a big season. For the foreseeable future.
Clay inherited classes like that from Sarkiffin and drove us straight into the ditch. There's more to it than Top 5 classes. Necessary but not sufficient.
 

AMLTrojan

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Franklin has out recruited Brian Kelly, slightly, during his tenure at psu. If you omit his first year and include what will probably happen in 2022, it’s not very close.
This just goes to my point about the prominence of PSU that SoCal folks don't appreciate. If you drive southwest from the tip of Maine, PSU is the first football program of true significance you hit -- and you've just covered a population base that exceeds California (whose numbers are inflated by Asians and Hispanics who, let's face it, don't suit up for big-time football in numbers proportional to their share of the population).

After you go past Happy Valley, you're still in Nittany Lion territory until you cross the border into Ohio, and PSU naturally draws from well into MD, DC, WV, and VA as well. Not only should Franklin naturally have a top five class there every year, it's a true sleeping giant from the perspective of competing for national championships.
 
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Peete2Affholter

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This just goes to my point about the prominence of PSU that SoCal folks don't appreciate. If you drive southwest from the tip of Maine, PSU is the first football program of true significance you hit -- and you've just covered a population base that exceeds California (whose numbers are inflated by Asians and Hispanics who, let's face it, don't suit up for big-time football in numbers proportional to their share of the population).

After you go past Happy Valley, you're still in Nittany Lion territory until you cross the border into Ohio, and PSU naturally draws from well into MD, DC, WV, and VA as well. Not only should Franklin naturally have a top five class there every year, it's a true sleeping giant from the perspective of competing for national championships.

Curious though - for those folks who live in the Boston and NYC metro areas, is Penn State the college football program most of them think about if their sons are good enough to play college ball?

I know it is the closest, and Boston College, Rutgers, Syracuse and such are not in the same tier, historically speaking, but I thought those two metro areas would tend to pull for Notre Dame and other traditional Big Ten powers.

West of the Rockies, USC is the big player in the room, with really no other major program of prominence except sort of UCLA and whatever Pac12 school is the flavor of the year (Oregon of late).
 
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trojan raul

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SC should hire a coach and staff who aims to bring in the #1 class EVERY year. Why not? That should be the goal. Have elite/strong prospects and some more behind them for depth. Develop and coach them up.
Great coach and staff plus great players equals playing for nattys. Bama does it. We did with with CPC.
Success in recruiting leads to success on the field.
We should hire THAT guy. Whoever it is.
 

TrojanFireHorse12

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SC should hire a coach and staff who aims to bring in the #1 class EVERY year. Why not? That should be the goal. Have elite/strong prospects and some more behind them for depth. Develop and coach them up.
Great coach and staff plus great players equals playing for nattys. Bama does it. We did with with CPC.
Success in recruiting leads to success on the field.
We should hire THAT guy. Whoever it is.
Our next Coach must have a rolodex, be a disciplinary, a great recruiter, motivator, developer and have a great football mind in terms of the larger picture and the finer details. Anything less or lacking will hurt USC.
 

AMLTrojan

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Curious though - for those folks who live in the Boston and NYC metro areas, is Penn State the college football program most of them think about if their sons are good enough to play college ball?

I know it is the closest, and Boston College, Rutgers, Syracuse and such are not in the same tier, historically speaking, but I thought those two metro areas would tend to pull for Notre Dame and other traditional Big Ten powers.

West of the Rockies, USC is the big player in the room, with really no other major program of prominence except sort of UCLA and whatever Pac12 school is the flavor of the year (Oregon of late).
Yes, Notre Dame and Michigan draw very well up there, too.
 

AnArchitect

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This just goes to my point about the prominence of PSU that SoCal folks don't appreciate. If you drive southwest from the tip of Maine, PSU is the first football program of true significance you hit -- and you've just covered a population base that exceeds California (whose numbers are inflated by Asians and Hispanics who, let's face it, don't suit up for big-time football in numbers proportional to their share of the population).

After you go past Happy Valley, you're still in Nittany Lion territory until you cross the border into Ohio, and PSU naturally draws from well into MD, DC, WV, and VA as well. Not only should Franklin naturally have a top five class there every year, it's a true sleeping giant from the perspective of competing for national championships.
And they can come in to Ohio, Indiana, and even Michigan and steal some, so it doesn't just stop at the Ohio border.
 

kasrkin

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I think Franklin would probably make USC a consistent top 10 team. I don't know if he could make USC a consistent top 5 or top 3 team like PC, but outside of Urban, I don't think there's any candidates who we could say would do that with confidence.

Edit for reference: PSU's end of season rankings last 5 years:

2020: Unranked
2019: #9
2018: #17
2017: #8
2016: #7

Easier conference schedule and better recruiting out west, shouldn't be hard to make some educated guesses.