Neither McKay nor Robinson had head coaching experience

IETrojanFan

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My opinion is that our last 3 hires (since CPC) were bad hires not so much because of lack of experience as because they were "insider" hires, hires who had previous connections to USC. First we had hires from the CPC tree (Kiffin then Sark) and then that turned into the Kiffin tree (Helton, which was also just a lazy, lazy hire).

I'm not against hiring Williams because of lack of experience so much as I am because I think it's HIGH time to hire completely fresh blood. Someone who will come and bring in an entirely new staff, someone with NO previous USC ties.

I'm not in the camp that we need to hire a coach with such a track record as Dabo, Saban, Urban, etc. because that level of coach is absolutely not available right now, there are just too few of them. But that's not really needed. As others have pointed out, many past coaches have had great success who never had head coaching experience before (but honestly people, do we really want to risk the next 3-5 or more years on that kind of risky hire just because it has worked sometimes in the past???). No, I'd much rather hire a coach who has at least some HC experience, along with at least a few of the following qualifications: shown that he can take a program and turn it around OR taken a program that's had some success and turned it into real success, won't put up with undisciplined ****, runs tough practices and a tight program, and preferably is defensive minded. We've had enough soft-azz offensive coaches in the recent past.

I'm sure there are a few more things I'm missing from my list that I'd like, but I really don't think it's a NC proven coach or bust, nor do I think the answer is simply hiring what we already have. There's GOT to be a happy medium, a successful coach who could do wonders with what USC brings to the table as far as talent and recruiting opportunities.
 

Peete2Affholter

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One game. Against Wazzu. Give me a break.

A WSU that was kicking our butts for the 1st half. It looked a lot like a continuation of the Stanford debacle.

Donte Williams will eventually be a head coach somewhere. If his ego can handle it, I believe the best-case scenario is that USC goes and hires a proven coach, a coach that gets us back in the national conversation again and routinely finishes in the Top 10, if not Top 5 and landing in the CFP. This coach retains Williams on staff, grooming him to eventually take over, and Williams takes the baton and runs with it, with little discernible drop-off from his predecessor.
 
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TrojanFireHorse12

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A WSU that was kicking our butts for the 1st half. It looked a lot like a continuation of the Stanford debacle.

Donte Williams will eventually be a head coach somewhere. If his ego can handle it, I believe the best-case scenario is that USC goes and hires a proven coach, a coach that gets us back in the national conversation again and routinely finishes in the Top 10, if not Top 5 and landing in the CFP. This coach retains Williams on staff, grooming him to eventually take over, and Williams takes the baton and runs with it, with little discernible drop-off from his predecessor.
A great scenario.
 

qqqqqqqman

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A WSU that was kicking our butts for the 1st half. It looked a lot like a continuation of the Stanford debacle.

Donte Williams will eventually be a head coach somewhere. If his ego can handle it, I believe the best-case scenario is that USC goes and hires a proven coach, a coach that gets us back in the national conversation again and routinely finishes in the Top 10, if not Top 5 and landing in the CFP. This coach retains Williams on staff, grooming him to eventually take over, and Williams takes the baton and runs with it, with little discernible drop-off from his predecessor.


If Donte can’t run the table, he MUST stay on staff.
Losing Donte as a DB coach and master recruiter will cost as much, or more, than any goodwill brought by the new HC.

Players….current and future….love this dude.

.
 
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Willlson!

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In 2013 I was on this board, Twitter, and other sites obsessively hunting for rumors about who would be replacing Kiff. If you'll remember Haden did all the talk about a "national search" and finding a "championship coach." The media wags were saying how smart Heritage Hall was to be first in the country to hunt for a new coach.

Gruden, Stoops, Saban, Franklin, Petersen-- a lot of the same names we're hearing now we heard then. Someone mentioned "Sark" in a post and the guy was dunked on heavily. Sark? Who just lost three games in a row? Who was rumored to be fired? No way was Haden that dumb!

The poster to his credit basically said, Guys, it's going to be Sark. SC does not take big steps in coaches. Couldn't believe it when it was announced, but that's history. This time I'm expecting one of three guys taking job: Donte, Del Rio, Justin Wilcox. Ugh to all.
 

559er

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Gotta do a lot more than 2 quarters of football. I don't know why so enamored. The initial game plan was bad. They won on talent and not by plan. Take that game plan against BYU, Oregon, or maybe even Fresno or SDSU and you'll lose. Enjoy the win, but you should be asking for more from a national search.
 
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HectorSpectre

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Hector — what’s the deal?

You have it out for August. His take was 100% football related. Didn’t attack anyone. Claudough? Is this the hill you wanna die on? Defending a below average football coach who was handsomely paid to be inept for over 5 years?

BS. His opening comment was "Ridiculous argument."

You may disagree with OP's point, but calling it "ridiculous" is, well, ridiculous. And it's absolutely no way to open a reply to anyone, if mutual respect and open discussion is what you seek.

The problem with your little insider group is that collectively and individually you treat people poorly as a matter of course; as though you people have the only true vision & anyone who sees differently is a valid target and needs to be silenced.

Second, you all show your own gross inability to treat people respectfully; like name-calling Helton like petulant 5 year olds, insulting posters without even realizing it (or just not caring) and threatening them. For instance, like you warning me about "dying" for my calling you on your own bad behavior. I guess by dying you mean you'll attack me to the point of driving me from the board in submission. Good luck wid dat.

Third, you constantly lie, distort and plant false flags on others, in this case by claiming I am "defending a below average football coach," when I'm doing no such thing. Helton should have been canned post 2018 and I have been consistent in stating that belief. So, don't go to misstating my words or my position.

All I'm doing is calling for a little decorum in a more collegial, respectful, less aggressive and less insulting environment. You see that as a challenge. So be it. But if you think you'll change my mind by coming after me, you don't know me very well.

Last, I ain't dying on any hill of your creation; you or your posse. So, you can take your threat and stick it were the sun doesn't shine. I'm not intimidated by any of you, separately or together. IMO, you're just run-of-the-mill bullies who haven't had your leash checked in a long while.

The fact is your little "insider" gang is so in the bad habit of ganging-up and insulting everyone & everything not in line with your own positions and throwing your imagined weight around, that you've forgotten how to behave properly to promote a positive board experience for all.

Since I've been here I've witnessed no less than a dozen instances of all, most, or some of your posse starting trouble and pursuing it to the point of the mods having to have close and delete some of those threads. No one else, bru, just you guys. I've only been here a little over a week and I can already see clearly your little posse:

  • Categorically cross-supporting one another by constantly coming to each other's defense, no matter the poster, the subject or the position taken,
  • Continuing to attack Helton in a hateful and strictly ad hominem manner that's not even remotely connected by example to his coaching decisions, even after he's fired, long-gone and of no further consequence, and
  • Stalking those who disagrees with any one of you, on any subject. Blem is a perfect example. Also, obliquely Scott Schrader. Don't deny it. It's a clear as crystal in your Off-topic board thread shredding Blem and "an unnamed mod", who properly disappeared a most-offensive thread authored by one of your mob. An unnamed mod, but "known" (i.e. assumed) by you all to be "covering Blem" from your outrageous personal attacks on Blem, even calling him a "racist" because his views on racial justice are different from your own, etc., etc., etc.

Tip: you and your friends don't own this site and you have no preeminent position over any other poster here. So why don't you just stop tearing scabs off of years-old wounds and stop acting like entitled bullies? The sooner you do, the sooner everyone benefits.
 

HectorSpectre

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Lincoln Riley no experience, Ryan Day no experience, Cristobal no experience really, Dabo no experience. It’s about recruiting, not experience. Hire good coaches is main thing but the HC needs to be a recruiter!!!

Your examples of "no experience" hires who wildly succeeded is accurate.

I can only guess why anyone would claim to see your list as an insult those USC greats who so succeeded.

My guess is they want to quell any discussion of possible hires not already headed of the College Football HOF.

Carry on. Good post.
 

HectorSpectre

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Folks,

I was just reflecting on these two. Should we put all of our eggs in the head coaching experience basket? I'm not sure what we should do, but this is a fact worth considering.

Jaxtrojan (Bruce Bagni)


Strong post!

No, we absolutely shouldn't put all our eggs into any one basket, but except for that one encompassing a full, broad, deep and open-minded search that neither excludes, nor includes, anyone for assumptive reasoning. Assumptions usually lead to the death of all reason.

Conscientious due diligence, thorough vetting and a deep purse will ultimately bring us the best available candidate.
 

zitorocks

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My opinion is that our last 3 hires (since CPC) were bad hires not so much because of lack of experience as because they were "insider" hires, hires who had previous connections to USC. First we had hires from the CPC tree (Kiffin then Sark) and then that turned into the Kiffin tree (Helton, which was also just a lazy, lazy hire).

I'm not against hiring Williams because of lack of experience so much as I am because I think it's HIGH time to hire completely fresh blood. Someone who will come and bring in an entirely new staff, someone with NO previous USC ties.

I'm not in the camp that we need to hire a coach with such a track record as Dabo, Saban, Urban, etc. because that level of coach is absolutely not available right now, there are just too few of them. But that's not really needed. As others have pointed out, many past coaches have had great success who never had head coaching experience before (but honestly people, do we really want to risk the next 3-5 or more years on that kind of risky hire just because it has worked sometimes in the past???). No, I'd much rather hire a coach who has at least some HC experience, along with at least a few of the following qualifications: shown that he can take a program and turn it around OR taken a program that's had some success and turned it into real success, won't put up with undisciplined ****, runs tough practices and a tight program, and preferably is defensive minded. We've had enough soft-azz offensive coaches in the recent past.

I'm sure there are a few more things I'm missing from my list that I'd like, but I really don't think it's a NC proven coach or bust, nor do I think the answer is simply hiring what we already have. There's GOT to be a happy medium, a successful coach who could do wonders with what USC brings to the table as far as talent and recruiting opportunities.
Just like the draft is the most important part of success in the NFL, recruiting is the numero uno qualification. We are a recruiting hotbed and while I agree that we don't need USC retreads on the staff, you absolutely MUST have guys who know LA, the HS coaches, and that have known these kids and their families for years developing relationships. Donte has that probably more than anyone in the country. If he's the HC, you know damn good and well that he will be out in the community hanging out in the HSs and with the HS coaches...and like Pete Carroll will have California locked down. You need the coordinators and other staff to be beyond experts in the Xs and Os of the game. You need other staff at the skill positions who are qualified to teach the proper techniques and instincts that will create execution of the Xs and Os. Just because Donte has been here for two years does not make him a USC insider or even anything like Kiff, Sark, Helton, JRob, or anyone else. Let's evaluate him and others on the most important qualities that we need to build a winner.
 

IETrojanFan

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Just like the draft is the most important part of success in the NFL, recruiting is the numero uno qualification. We are a recruiting hotbed and while I agree that we don't need USC retreads on the staff, you absolutely MUST have guys who know LA, the HS coaches, and that have known these kids and their families for years developing relationships. Donte has that probably more than anyone in the country. If he's the HC, you know damn good and well that he will be out in the community hanging out in the HSs and with the HS coaches...and like Pete Carroll will have California locked down. You need the coordinators and other staff to be beyond experts in the Xs and Os of the game. You need other staff at the skill positions who are qualified to teach the proper techniques and instincts that will create execution of the Xs and Os. Just because Donte has been here for two years does not make him a USC insider or even anything like Kiff, Sark, Helton, JRob, or anyone else. Let's evaluate him and others on the most important qualities that we need to build a winner.
Fine, then try to incentivize him to stay on staff. However, I want a coach with experience. A good recruiter is well and good, but he's also gotta be able to do everything else a coach needs to do. In fact, sometimes the HC doesn't even need to be the best recruiter. That's what you got staff for.
 
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zitorocks

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Believe it or not recruiting is not as important as infrastructure. Kiff and Sark recruited very well, but nothing was in place for development and discipline. The HC needs to be a competent recruiter, but must be a master administrator. It's why I like Fickell. He's not the only one I like but he's the most plausible. I would prefer not to have another rah rah guy at the helm. Slow and steady will win this race.
Kiff and Sark's issues were that they didn't have the right staff around them. Remember, Kiff had poppa as the DC and had to fire him. Helton was on those staff too. They just didn't have competent staff. I think if we had given them an experienced but younger DC and OC, they would have been far more successful. Additionally, Kiff and Sark were both proficient play callers...Xs and Os guys if you will. They were not prepared to be head coaches. I guarantee they were meddling with the details when they should have been leading.

I've seen these situations in the military a lot. Commanders who were micromanagers or "in the weeds" all of the time were not successful leaders. The ones who are successful understand the capabilities and competencies of their support staff and help them to elevate their individual performances. They empower their subordinates and allow them to make mistakes as long as they learn and adjust from those. They set the vision for what they want to happen and consistently reinforce that vision in everything they do.
 

zitorocks

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I don’t recall the proficient playcalling.

I do recall the same plays, with the same personnel for those plays being run.

1st down- Bubble screen, gain of two
2nd down- Run off tackle right, gain of one
3rd down- Fade down the right sideline, incomplete.
4th down- Punt

That’s what I remember.
Touche, but I think it was more like bubble screen, gain five on a run, 40 yard pass incomplete....or another bubble screen for a gain of one. Remember, Kessler had freakishly great completion and efficiency numbers. I don't think Kiff and Sark really had the QB talent we have now.
 

CoronaTrojanFan

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There are enough good candidates out there that this time around USC needs to get a guy that recruits will see as a great winner and player developer. SoCal players are migrating to the SEC or Big 10 because they see even 2nd-string guys from Bama or Georgia or LSU or Ohio State or Clemson getting to the NFL.

USC still has enough cache that a name coach will be willing to take on the job if the money is right.
 

HRPickenstuff

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McKay was 400 years ago. We can't afford to make the same mistake we did with dough.
Right! I laugh when people bring up McKay and that 3 yards and a cloud of dust football to make a point about today’s game. Nobody is winning using student body right and student body left these days. If it worked people would use it. Georgia tried and got smoked by teams with more advanced offenses.

Why not dust off the Memory of Babe Ruth and insert him into the conversation of today’s game.

Today’s athletes are bigger, faster and the offenses have evolved. There are 3rd down specialists now the DE’s are smaller and faster. Can you imagine one of those giant shoulder pad wearing 260 lbs run stooping LB trying to cover a WR like DaVonta Smith on a slant?
 

HRPickenstuff

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Ridiculous argument.

For every McKay, there’s 50 Claydough’s.

It’s actually insulting to McKay and RoBo to assume just anyone, any old new coach can come in and do what they did.

It cheapens their accomplishments.

They are considered great because what they did rarely happens. And there’s reasons for that.
John Robinson had a circle of friends that included, Dick Vermeil, Chuck Knox and John McKay by the time he got the Job he was as seasoned as they come with all these elite resources around him. Comparing a John Robinson hire to our current situation is insane. John Robinson just didn’t show up one day and get the job google his coaching experience before they hired him.
 
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TrojanFireHorse12

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Gotta do a lot more than 2 quarters of football. I don't know why so enamored. The initial game plan was bad. They won on talent and not by plan. Take that game plan against BYU, Oregon, or maybe even Fresno or SDSU and you'll lose. Enjoy the win, but you should be asking for more from a national search.
Their initial game plan was screwed by the players pressing too hard. Scoring 28 to 45 unanswered points isn't normal for any USC team over the past 7 years.
 

denali15

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Believe it or not recruiting is not as important as infrastructure. Kiff and Sark recruited very well, but nothing was in place for development and discipline. The HC needs to be a competent recruiter, but must be a master administrator. It's why I like Fickell. He's not the only one I like but he's the most plausible. I would prefer not to have another rah rah guy at the helm. Slow and steady will win this race.

Every USC coach is a good recruiter. Even he-who-shall-not-be-named. The next USC coach will recruit well. The one after that, and the one after than...
 

Tod78

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Every USC coach is a good recruiter. Even he-who-shall-not-be-named. The next USC coach will recruit well. The one after that, and the one after than...

That's true about 95% of the time not just for our coaches but for everybody's coaches. There are rare exceptions but recruiting is an essential job skill for any college coach.

Still, there is a difference between a "good" recruiter and an "exceptional" recruiter.
 

zitorocks

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Pete used to say that you could get 10 new first-round picks every year in college if you are good at talent evaluation and recruiting. It was far easier to manage a quality personnel roster in college than in the pros. Let's not sell those skills short. Each position coach must be a lights-out talent scout.
 

denali15

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Pete used to say that you could get 10 new first-round picks every year in college if you are good at talent evaluation and recruiting. It was far easier to manage a quality personnel roster in college than in the pros. Let's not sell those skills short. Each position coach must be a lights-out talent scout.

And John McKay said: "Recruiting is like shaving. If you don't do it every day, pretty soon you become a bum."
 

BDRFTFO

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Ridiculous, pompous and arrogant response.

And the man’s name is Clay Helton.

Stop being so insulting and dismissive of others.

Do you know how to frame an argument without being insulting, marginalizing or ridiculing?
No because their site brought all their balding and overweight men who don't have an ounce of respect or integrity during the merger lmao
 
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Socrates

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This is why I like Fickell.
He is a former DL.
He played against B1G level OL.
He coached DL.
He knows what to look for in recruiting DL and OL.
USC's biggest weakness is DL and OL.
His strength is USC's biggest need.

USC's returned to greatness under PC started with the recruitment of Cody and Patterson with CEO already on the trail of each.
 

BOULDER TO BIRMINGHAM

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Folks,

I was just reflecting on these two. Should we put all of our eggs in the head coaching experience basket? I'm not sure what we should do, but this is a fact worth considering.

Jaxtrojan (Bruce Bagni)
Yes. Unless Donte does something really special, we need to go after a head coach with a winning resume.