OT: Civil War Buffs

zappaa

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Jul 27, 2001
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I'm a huge war buff of all wars. To this day I still cannot fathom the bravery it must have taken to stand in a line in the wide open and hope you did not get hit by a round. I know if either guy to the right or left got popped in the head I would have had a tough time loading powder and round. Actually found a musketball in my back yard digging out cement
Different mindset that we cannot contemplate or understand and never will.
In our generation, first wave beach landings are the only comparable act we have.
They were incredibly courageous, but nothing like what these men did or the tactics they employed
 

Yeah Baby

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Aug 14, 2001
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Grant really was the person who took the fight to the rebs. After the Battle of the Wilderness in 1864 it is said as the federal troops left the woods they noticed they were not retreating for once and a cheer went up. Grant , when given command of all the Federal armies , decided to stay with the Army Of The Potomac , at the time under Gen. Meade , because he knew Lee had to beat to win the war. Sherman , I think would have also done well against Lee and also beat him in the long run . The north had much more in the way of everything supplies , men etc. Without Grant it was only a matter of time before the south lost IF the war continued. But it also may depend on Lincoln's situation.
The Grant biography is very long but very good. Unfortunately he/ we had to sacrifice a lot of men to gain every inch of ground we took but it finally paid off at Appomattox:
 

hoquat63

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Mar 17, 2005
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History tells us that slavery was protected by the rich and not the hard working or poor people. We cannot say all southerners were racist even back then but that is how we painted the picture with one broad stroke. Lather rinse repeat since then.
Pretty much everyone both north and south, held what we would consider to be racist views. That would include Lincoln. All you have to do is read anything written by people who lived in that period. Sherman, for example, believed slavery was a good thing.
 

srru86

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Jul 25, 2001
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You could buy you way out of the draft in the North.
And in the South the Twenty Negro Act you could get an exemption from the draft if you were a slave owner or overseer - because somebody had to keep the slaves in line.
The South also had a purchased substitution for a time.
The South started conscription in 1862 ,the North 1863.
There was plenty of ‘rich man’s war, poor man’s fight’ on both sides. That didn't change the overall moral distinctions between the sides.
Beware of "Lost Cause" nonsense on the topic from people who only read Daughters of the Confederacy approved school books or ought to know better.
 
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ashokan

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May 3, 2011
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The Grant biography is very long but very good. Unfortunately he/ we had to sacrifice a lot of men to gain every inch of ground we took but it finally paid off at Appomattox:

I was reading bio last month. It was interesting that Grant thought the Mexican War (and the grasp for more pro slavery states/votes) was a major cause of Civil War. He also said he didn't regard Lee with awe. He said he knew him at West Point so for him Lee was just a dude.
 

e5fdny

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Nov 11, 2002
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I also find the camaraderie between the Union and Confederate soldiers who happened upon each other during breaks from battles and skirmishes fascinating
During the first Christmas of WW1 there was a cease fire and they ended up playing soccer at one point in no man’s land.

Sang carols together and no one really wanted it, the cease fire, to end.
 

WhiteBus

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Oct 4, 2011
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I could see if you were uneducated being afraid of losing your job to the newly freed slaves, kind of like today and some people's feeling about immigration.
Slaves and immigrants do jobs people don't want to do. The argument that immigrants steal jobs is laughable. The jobs they take are available because no one wants to do them.
 

DJ Spanky

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Jul 25, 2001
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Grant really was the person who took the fight to the rebs. After the Battle of the Wilderness in 1864 it is said as the federal troops left the woods they noticed they were not retreating for once and a cheer went up. Grant , when given command of all the Federal armies , decided to stay with the Army Of The Potomac , at the time under Gen. Meade , because he knew Lee had to beat to win the war. Sherman , I think would have also done well against Lee and also beat him in the long run . The north had much more in the way of everything supplies , men etc. Without Grant it was only a matter of time before the south lost IF the war continued. But it also may depend on Lincoln's situation.
Interesting discussions of his tactics, probably the most effective of them being attacking in multiple places so that Lee couldn't move his army around from engagement to engagement.

I always found found Britain's involvement with the South interesting.
 

zappaa

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Jul 27, 2001
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I promised my big bro Larry I’d tell you all to plan a trip to Dragonman’s Military Museum in Colorado.
Big Larry says it’s a must see destination for all of you
 

gef21

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Jan 25, 2005
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History tells us that slavery was protected by the rich and not the hard working or poor people. We cannot say all southerners were racist even back then but that is how we painted the picture with one broad stroke. Lather rinse repeat since then.

Yes, BUT every letter of secession specifically lists slavery as an issue. So while every soldier may not have been a racist, or fighting for slavery, the war was fought over slavery.
 

RUSK97

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Dec 28, 2007
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Pretty much everyone both north and south, held what we would consider to be racist views. That would include Lincoln. All you have to do is read anything written by people who lived in that period. Sherman, for example, believed slavery was a good thing.
Thankfully, no one circa 2021 has racist views anymore.
 
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hoquat63

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Yes, BUT every letter of secession specifically lists slavery as an issue. So while every soldier may not have been a racist, or fighting for slavery, the war was fought over slavery.
Interesting book if you are a Civil War nerd “Apostles of Disunion” by Charles Dew deals with commissioners Deep South states sent to other southern states to convince them to join secession
 
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RUSK97

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And no one I know minds loosing their job to a legal immigrant who’s respected our laws and entered this country properly
That may be your experience, but I see this all the time. I am an investor in a family real estate development company. We hire a number of legal immigrants and American-born workers from latin-American backgrounds and Puerto Ricans (who are American) to work in skilled and unskilled manual labor. I constantly hear derisive comments that the jobs should go to 'Americans'. And guess who're the harder workers?
 
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RUSK97

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Absolutely correct, we live in the best possible time in the best possible world.
Of course my comment was sarcastic, but in spite of all our problems, I still do believe we live in the best possible time in the history of the world. The world has always been a messed up place and always will be.
 

greenknight

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Sep 1, 2001
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I promised my big bro Larry I’d tell you all to plan a trip to Dragonman’s Military Museum in Colorado.
Big Larry says it’s a must see destination for all of you
Checked the sight pretty cool. A few that I would suggest 1 right in our back yard the USS New Jersey was awesome, the WW2 museum in New Orleans was real good only got to spend about an hour in there. I could have gotten lost in there for the whole da.

A few cool things I have my grandfather was iin WW1 and have a bunch of silk handkerchiefs, silk pillow shams, and sewn I think they are placemats that are from 1918. Checked ebay and cannot believe how little something from 1918 is worth. I have his release papers from the army and am working on getting any metals he had earned
 
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Yeah Baby

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Yes, BUT every letter of secession specifically lists slavery as an issue. So while every soldier may not have been a racist, or fighting for slavery, the war was fought over slavery.
No doubt. Slavery was a major sticking point after the Revolutionary war too. Many wanted it ended then but they went ahead and kept it to stay unified or else Great Britain would have come right back at us. Again, the wealthy and those in power wanted slavery to get richer and have more power. Not every person in the USA wanted it.

Slavery was about power and money and still is. There were white slaves in Europe. There were blacks who helped the slavery cause for money and power in Africa. Now we have sex slaves who are of every race and skin color controlled by people from every race and skin color. All for power and money. All slavery sucks and it’s not just the white man attacking the black man. It’s filthy greedy people oppressing those who cannot defend themselves and it sucks. It sucked 1000 years ago, 250 years ago and it sucks today.

I forgot to mention all the blonde hair blue eyed poor kids in the south who were kidnapped from their parents in the early 1900’s and sold to rich people who could not have their own children. Horrible things happen in this world. Some just get ignored. The fact that we fought a war to end slavery tells me it was important to many people in this country to put it to an end. It was a terrible and brutal war where too many lost their lives for a worthy cause. Let’s never forget those who were sacrificed for the end of slavery on both sides.
 
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greenknight

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Sep 1, 2001
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I have my dad's Army Air Force uniform from WWII: I need to figure out how to display that.
So much cool history. Some thing you dont hear about on old wars were training injuries/deaths I'm sure there were a ton. My uncle was one of them. Training in England for D-day LST door opened and Compound fractured his leg. Turned out very lucky injury that haunted him for the rest of his life, everyone in his platoon either died in their LST or never made it onto or off the beach. My mom told me that story. Dr's must have been pretty bad back then or the technology was god awful just remember being about 10 or so and he had a real bad limp still from his leg. Then we went to one of my wife's besties parents house for dinner they were German. I went into a room and her parents dad was in German military and just saw like 50 mounted pictures of him in uniform., medals etc I was amazed could have spent all day going thru scrap books on the German end of things. They showed me some but we had to go. Totally humanized the German end of things for me.
 
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mdk02

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Aug 18, 2011
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During the first Christmas of WW1 there was a cease fire and they ended up playing soccer at one point in no man’s land.

Sang carols together and no one really wanted it, the cease fire, to end.

Both sides ended up having to transfer some of those troops to other sectors.
 

mdk02

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Aug 18, 2011
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The Grant biography is very long but very good. Unfortunately he/ we had to sacrifice a lot of men to gain every inch of ground we took but it finally paid off at Appomattox:

I'd classify it as must read. That goes for the post-war period as well.
 

hoquat63

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Mar 17, 2005
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Most interesting to me are the letters and diaries of the participants. Was fortunate enough to pick up a copy of George Templeron Strong’s civil war diaries at a reasonable price. If you did watch the Ken Burns series his name might be familiar. He was an NY lawyer who headed the Sanitary Commission
 
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e5fdny

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Nov 11, 2002
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Also - Gangs of New York covers the draft riots.
Also covers corruption, drafts being picked up by poor Irishmen from rich men, fixed elections and how the powerful oppress those less powerful. Right out in the open back then. Great flick.
They briefly touch on the fire dept stuff too.

Crazy, crazy times. So glad 1. my grandparents immigrated when they did (post WWI) and 2. Was born when I was, 60s

Don’t mind visiting the ole sod and reading about our own history but very happy I am here and living this time in history.
 

rutger80

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So much cool history. Some thing you dont hear about on old wars were training injuries/deaths I'm sure there were a ton. My uncle was one of them. Training in England for D-day LST door opened and Compound fractured his leg. Turned out very lucky injury that haunted him for the rest of his life, everyone in his platoon either died in their LST or never made it onto or off the beach. My mom told me that story. Dr's must have been pretty bad back then or the technology was god awful just remember being about 10 or so and he had a real bad limp still from his leg. Then we went to one of my wife's besties parents house for dinner they were German. I went into a room and her parents dad was in German military and just saw like 50 mounted pictures of him in uniform., medals etc I was amazed could have spent all day going thru scrap books on the German end of things. They showed me some but we had to go. Totally humanized the German end of things for me.


My grandfather got an Iron Cross from Germany for his service in WWI. In doing some family research, came across a tidbit that one of his brothers was a POW, in England. Had no idea.
 

Source

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Aug 1, 2001
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No Civil War can be complete without mention of Colonel (later brevetted Major General) George H. Sharpe, Rutgers Class of 1847. Sharpe was the guy who figured out the logistics of enemy troop strengths, food, water, ammunition, etc. At the time, it was not one of the "things" an army thought to do. Later he headed up the Bureau of Military Intelligence - the forerunner of departments like the CIA. He was also sent overseas to France to hunt down the son of one of the conspirators in the Lincoln assassination.

And one of the lesser known things.... he was an organizer of Rutgers first Alumni gathering held at Delmonico's Steak House in New York City in 1875. Sharpe brought his NYC work buddy - Chester A. Arthur - a half dozen years before he became 21st President of the United States of America.

 

Yeah Baby

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Aug 14, 2001
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Pretty much everyone both north and south, held what we would consider to be racist views. That would include Lincoln. All you have to do is read anything written by people who lived in that period. Sherman, for example, believed slavery was a good thing.
What we consider to be racist views today would be laughed at by those who gave their lives in this war. However, I do agree blacks, Chinese, Irish (lesser extent but abused in that day) and other minorities were treated very poorly during these times. Later it was the Italians. Then the Puerto Rican’s and so on. NJ is pretty much a melting pot today. People with money may feel superior and poor people may feel inferior but I view neither that way. You’re either a good dude or you’re not in my rating scale. Many levels in between but that’s how I view people.
 

BigRnj

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Nov 20, 2012
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That may be your experience, but I see this all the time. I am an investor in a family real estate development company. We hire a number of legal immigrants and American-born workers from latin-American backgrounds and Puerto Ricans (who are American) to work in skilled and unskilled manual labor. I constantly hear derisive comments that the jobs should go to 'Americans'. And guess who're the harder workers?

Them, not you 😉
 

mdk02

Heisman
Aug 18, 2011
26,145
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What we consider to be racist views today would be laughed at by those who gave their lives in this war. However, I do agree blacks, Chinese, Irish (lesser extent but abused in that day) and other minorities were treated very poorly during these times. Later it was the Italians. Then the Puerto Rican’s and so on. NJ is pretty much a melting pot today. People with money may feel superior and poor people may feel inferior but I view neither that way. You’re either a good dude or you’re not in my rating scale. Many levels in between but that’s how I view people.

And the Germans in 1840-70 and then again in WWI (Liberty Cabbage?). Name me an immigrant group that hasn't suffered from discrimination. And I dare say that is no different than any country in the world. The one experience that's unique is African-Americans and slavery. As bad as it was for everyone else, that's a different order of magnitude worse.
 

hoquat63

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Mar 17, 2005
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What we consider to be racist views today would be laughed at by those who gave their lives in this war. However, I do agree blacks, Chinese, Irish (lesser extent but abused in that day) and other minorities were treated very poorly during these times. Later it was the Italians. Then the Puerto Rican’s and so on. NJ is pretty much a melting pot today. People with money may feel superior and poor people may feel inferior but I view neither that way. You’re either a good dude or you’re not in my rating scale. Many levels in between but that’s how I view people.
The period right before the war gave rise to the American Party aka the No Nothings. They hated all immigrants, Catholics, Masons, etc.
If you want to look up some of Thomas Nast’s cartoons, you will see some very racist depictions of the Irish.
 

BigWill

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Jul 25, 2001
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Much of the South felt the War Between The States was not about slavery, but about States rights.

As did many in the North. It wasn't till at least half way along that Lincoln started to focus on the elimination of slavery as the main reason for winning the war.

Slavery as the main focus of the war is just in the past 100 years or so...
 

hoquat63

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Much of the South felt the War Between The States was not about slavery, but about States rights.

As did many in the North. It wasn't till at least half way along that Lincoln started to focus on the elimination of slavery as the main reason for winning the war.

Slavery as the main focus of the war is just in the past 100 years or so...
Myth of the “Lost Cause” pushed by the South to rewrite history.
Prewar: Alexander Stephens (soon to be VP of the CSA): Slavery is the cornerstone of the Confederacy
Post war diary - states rights.
Many similar Southern comments.
For north, it is true slavery was not an issue (as said in previous post, Sherman, for example believed slavery a good system) but preservation of the Union was. Lincoln said his main goal was preserving the Union. If he could save the Union by freeing no slaves, he would do it. Or by freeing some of the slaves or all of the slaves same thing. Preservation of the Union was paramount.
 

BigWill

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Jul 25, 2001
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States rights is preservation of the Union.

The Majority of Southerners Had NO slaves. It was uneconomic as a practice.
 
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gef21

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Jan 25, 2005
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Interesting book if you are a Civil War nerd “Apostles of Disunion” by Charles Dew deals with commissioners Deep South states sent to other southern states to convince them to join secession
Thanks. Ill check it out.
 

Yeah Baby

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Aug 14, 2001
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The period right before the war gave rise to the American Party aka the No Nothings. They hated all immigrants, Catholics, Masons, etc.
If you want to look up some of Thomas Nast’s cartoons, you will see some very racist depictions of the Irish.
Thanks I’ll do that now. The Irish and Scottish were also abused by the Brits. Slavery and all.
 

goru1869

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Nov 16, 2005
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The Grant biography is very long but very good. Unfortunately he/ we had to sacrifice a lot of men to gain every inch of ground we took but it finally paid off at Appomattox:
Losing 6,000 men in 20 minutes at Cold Harbor in 1864 was very hard on Grant. Took that to his grave.