Penn State enrollment numbers mirror national trends

Nitt1300

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Deb Erdley, Tribune-Review, Greensburg, Pa.
Sun, November 21, 2021, 9:16 AM


Nov. 21—We are?
If the answer to the popular college cheer is "Penn State," there are fewer voices chiming in these days.
Although Penn State's University Park campus, which turns away hundreds of well-qualified students every year, bounced back to better than 2019 enrollment numbers, increasing from 46,313 students last year to 47,560 students this fall, all of the 19 regional campuses posted losses that contributed to a slight decline in overall enrollment from fall 2020.
Penn State's numbers come on the heels a new survey by the National Student Clearinghouse that found college enrollment down 5.8% across the nation since fall 2019. That's the largest two year decline in half a century, but it's not quite as bad as a preliminary survey released last month that projected a 6.5% decline over two years.

Although researchers found across the board enrollment declines, with only the nation's most competitive universities escaping the trend, experts say it it troubling.
Some fear it could be a precursor to a shortage of teachers, nurses, accountants and others in positions that require a college degree in a state already faced with a graying demographic and shortages in the labor market.
In Pennsylvania, where the impact of the pandemic has exacerbated declines attributed to a shrinking pool of new high school graduates, few colleges have escaped declines in enrollment.
New Penn State numbers show that with the exception of campuses in Harrisburg and the Lehigh Valley, all of its regional campuses appear to be on a downward spiral that began about 20 years ago.
Four regional campuses in Southwestern Pennsylvania all have taken significant hits in enrollment over the last two decades, leaving them about the size of a small high school. At Penn State New Kensington, enrollment declined from 1.080 to 492; Penn State Fayette from 1,139 to 525; Penn State Beaver 791 to 555 and Penn State Greater Allegheny from 934 to 396.
In total, regional campuses scattered across the state experienced a 26% decline in enrollment over the last two decades.
Those declines mirror similar enrollment drops over the same period at the 14 universities in the Pennsylvania State System of Higher Education. Officials overseeing the State System have embarked on a plan to merge six campuses into three mega universities, in an effort to stem their losses.
Although Penn State officials briefly broached the possibility of closing branch campuses 10 years ago when faced with a dramatic reduction in state subsidies, they have since doubled down on their continued operations and launched a variety of initiatives including tuition freezes, scholarships and community partnerships to cement their standing.
Penn State officials pointed to a 2.6% increase in the number of first time undergraduate students at the regional campuses this fall as cause for optimism.
"Our Commonwealth campus locations are integral to fulfilling the university's land-grant mission to provide access to education and public service to citizens of Pennsylvania and beyond, and we are actively analyzing any change in enrollment while continuing to engage with our communities." Yvonne Gaudelius, Penn State vice president and dean for undergraduate education, said in a statement.
Deb Erdley is a Tribune-Review staff writer. You can contact Deb at 724-850-1209, [email protected] or via Twitter .

Penn State enrollment numbers mirror national trends (yahoo.com)
 

EddyS

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And when will the academic profile and standing improve.
Yesterday, two friends said their kids went to Pitt because they liked it over psu.
That never would have happenedc20 years ago.
What is the academic profile of the student body? Is it any good?
 
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GrimReaper

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And when will the academic profile and standing improve.
Yesterday, two friends said their kids went to Pitt because they liked it over psu.
That never would have happenedc20 years ago.
What is the academic profile of the student body? Is it any good?

Problem is we don't know. PSU is "test optional" until 2023. Believe I read that 60% of the class that entered this year chose that route.
 

PSUFTG

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And when will the academic profile and standing improve.
Yesterday, two friends said their kids went to Pitt because they liked it over psu.
That never would have happenedc20 years ago.
What is the academic profile of the student body? Is it any good?
When you need 10,000 paying customers, and you rank 14th out of 14 in the Big Ten, you take whomever will write you a check. Barry wrote an article on Penn State's current year admissions a month or two ago. I'll see what some of the particulars were.
 

EddyS

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The rise in out of state students is a disgrace. Believe I heard pushing 50%.
The mission of a Land Grant university is to educate the non- elites within its state.
PSU is doing less and less of that.
Shame on the school’s so called leaders. Shame.
 

BobPSU92

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Stupid question: Why is PSU currently test-optional? Are many other colleges doing this?
 

OaktonDave

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Stupid question: Why is PSU currently test-optional? Are many other colleges doing this?
I don't know about Penn State's rationale, but many schools are now test optional. It is something I am finding with even better schools as my son is in the college selection process for the fall of '23.

What we are hearing is that in an era of increased automation and data analysis, schools are looking at applicant's high school and putting their GPA in that context. They are also able to take a closer look at what courses the applicants took and what other activities they pursued. The applications themselves are more complex than anything I recall completing in the summer of 1980. Apparently, AI tools allow a college admissions departments to read more from an applicant than they could when the only option was human beings doing the same. The argument appears to be that schools are now able to do a deeper dive on the individual applicant than they could in the past when GPA and SAT/ACT scores were all they had the resources to evaluate to any meaningful extent. I'm in no position to argue that what they do now is better or worse than the GPA + SAT/ACT scores method, but it's fair to say that the issue is more complex than simply saying that schools that don't require tests are automatically not being thorough or fair in the admissions process.

This link I just found may shed some light for those interested: Test-Optional Colleges: Complete List of 900+ Schools (prepscholar.com)
 
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PSUFTG

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I don't know about Penn State's rationale, but many schools are now test optional. It is something I am finding with even better schools as my son is in the college selection process for the fall of '23.
Small, extremely competitive schools have really never needed the standardized test scores. They know they only get the cream of the crop, and they can go through each candidate with a very stringent analysis to select the best, with or without standardized test scores. An Ivy type school, probably gets 20,000 applications - tosses 15,000 right in the trash after a quick glance - and then can pour over the rest to come up with the 1-2 thousand they offer.

A middle of the road public school - that is going to get 80,000 applications, and offer admission to 50,000 of them (I don't know if that is exactly Penn State's numbers, but Penn State and similar schools are probably in that general range. Maybe a bit higher since they stopped requiring test scores, which leads to receiving a lot more applications.) - is not in the same position. How do they determine which of the applicants to not accept? There simply are not enough hours in the day to individually analyze each candidate on things other than standardized metrics, at least as a screening tool to narrow things down.

As far as Penn State's rationale for implementing no-test admissions, I think the article posted above did a pretty good job of explaining it. Penn State wouldn't be the first school to do it, for the same reasons.
 

OaktonDave

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As far as Penn State's rationale for implementing no-test admissions, I think the article posted above did a pretty good job of explaining it. Penn State wouldn't be the first school to do it, for the same reasons.
Sorry, but the article didn't explain anything; it's Barry's hypothesis on the situation based on his understanding of how college admissions work.

I edited my post to add what my wife, son, and I have learned as we embark on the application process, and I added a link that provides additional information on schools that don't require standard tests. None of the people we have spoken with nor any of the information sources we have reviewed have a dog in the fight of how PSU is run; they're just providing information the college admission process works in 2021 with some explanations of how students are evaluated. Again, it's a different world and process than I encountered in 1980, and questions that you raise in your second paragraph, some of the same questions I had a few months ago, can be answered by use of advanced technology that helps greatly with the applicant screening process. I'm not endorsing or criticizing the process, just passing on information on what is.
 
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Bertrand

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And what would you have Penn State do? A state with a rapidly declining college age population and an economic backwater outside of Philly and Pittsburgh. No signs of improved investment from the state government. You attract students from outside the commonwealth. Lots of bright kids from Jersey and New York. All good!
 
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Nitwit

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And what would you have Penn State do? A state with a rapidly declining college age population and an economic backwater outside of Philly and Pittsburgh. No signs of improved investment from the state government. You attract students from outside the commonwealth. Lots of bright kids from Jersey and New York. All good!
What they also have done is become a leader in the world campus. This is a great alternative to the declining commonwealth campuses by offering convenience to students all over the world. I know there is a lot of controversy about accepting international students, which all good universities do. I have no problem with it. It’s a world economy and let them compete with PA students for admission along with students from out of state. I think a lot of the objection frankly is racially motivated.
 
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PSUFTG

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And what would you have Penn State do? A state with a rapidly declining college age population and an economic backwater outside of Philly and Pittsburgh. No signs of improved investment from the state government. You attract students from outside the commonwealth. Lots of bright kids from Jersey and New York. All good!
Well, if that were true, would PSU be ranked dead last in the Big Ten in the latest ratings? In 2014, Penn State was 3rd in the Big Ten. Northwestern was #1 (and 12th in the nation), Michigan was 2nd (28th in the nation), and Penn State was 3rd (37th in the nation). You can see the year to year ratings here: U.S. News National University Rankings, 2008-2015 | Public University Honors
Now, Penn State is dead last. During that exact same time period, since 2014, Penn State was moving more and more towards higher out of state, and less in state, students.

How, do you suppose, did that happen - from going out and getting the cream of the crop elite students from out of state? Getting the best and the brightest from out of state to choose Penn State, and to pay Penn State's out of state tuition - which is essentially Ivy league pricing? Or did they get as many students as possible who were willing to pay more than twice as much in tuition? One doesn't need to be Phi Beta Kappa to know that just doesn't add up, and that it simply cannot be true, no matter how badly, or why, someone may want to believe it.

And, yes, of course there are many very bright kids in New York, or New Jersey, or Kansas, or California, or Alaska. But common sense says you are more likely to successfully attract higher proportions of the best applicants when you are charging them $20,000 per year (roughly, in state tuition) vs $40,000 per year (roughly out of state tuition). And that is exactly what the data over the last decade has borne out.
And, for what it is worth, Pitt faces the exact same in state demographics, and has been rising - at a fairly decent clip - while Penn State has been falling.
In 2014, when Penn State was ranked 37th, Pitt was ranked 62nd. Today, it is flip-flopped.
 
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PSUFTG

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What they also have done is become a leader in the world campus. This is a great alternative to the declining commonwealth campuses by offering convenience to students all over the world. I know there is a lot of controversy about accepting international students, which all good universities do. I have no problem with it. It’s a world economy and let them compete with PA students for admission along with students from out of state. I think a lot of the objection frankly is racially motivated.
That sounds nice on a postcard. And, yes, Penn State was ranked 15th among on-line universities last year - by the folks who rank such things.
15th in the nation sounds impressive, until you realize who the competition was. It was not Princeton and Stanford. Top academic institutions generally do not have on-line campuses.
At 15th in the nation, Penn State ranked just below #14 Liberty University, and just ahead of #16 Northern Arizona. Nothing against Liberty or Northern Arizona, I am sure they are fine schools with fine graduates. But if Penn State is going to get their brag points by being equals of Liberty and Northern Arizona, things are worse than anyone might have ever imagined.
 
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PSUFTG

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I don't know about Penn State's rationale, but many schools are now test optional. It is something I am finding with even better schools as my son is in the college selection process for the fall of '23.

What we are hearing is that in an era of increased automation and data analysis, schools are looking at applicant's high school and putting their GPA in that context. They are also able to take a closer look at what courses the applicants took and what other activities they pursued. The applications themselves are more complex than anything I recall completing in the summer of 1980. Apparently, AI tools allow a college admissions departments to read more from an applicant than they could when the only option was human beings doing the same. The argument appears to be that schools are now able to do a deeper dive on the individual applicant than they could in the past when GPA and SAT/ACT scores were all they had the resources to evaluate to any meaningful extent. I'm in no position to argue that what they do now is better or worse than the GPA + SAT/ACT scores method, but it's fair to say that the issue is more complex than simply saying that schools that don't require tests are automatically not being thorough or fair in the admissions process.

This link I just found may shed some light for those interested: Test-Optional Colleges: Complete List of 900+ Schools (prepscholar.com)
I see you added a lot more substance to your original post. Since I commented on your earlier one, I thought it was worth mentioning my agreement to a couple of points you added. You added: "I'm in no position to argue that what they do now is better or worse than the GPA + SAT/ACT scores method, but it's fair to say that the issue is more complex than simply saying that schools that don't require tests are automatically not being thorough or fair in the admissions process." I think that is very true, and for universities that are situated in such a way to do that - like the Ivies and other elites - they have never needed standardized tests scores in the process (I may have mentioned that in an earlier post). But the Penn States, Ohio States, and others just aren't in that same universe. The sheer logistics make it such that an applicant's high school courses and grades (and in some cases the high school they attended) and the standardized test scores are all they can work with for the vast majority of applicants. Performance and Art majors, and some other anomalies, are a slightly different animal, of course.
For what it is worth, Eric Barron had been walking back the whole "test score optional" thing, and was going to bring testing requirements back for 2022 - because it was a mess, and they never anticipated what a high percentage of applicants would go that route, I think it was over 60% - but I haven't heard any follow up to that, my guess is since he is now a short-timer he may just let the next person deal with it.
 
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Nitwit

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That sounds nice on a postcard. And, yes, Penn State was ranked 15th among on-line universities last year - by the folks who rank such things.
15th in the nation sounds impressive, until you realize who the competition was. It was not Princeton and Stanford. Top academic institutions generally do not have on-line campuses.
At 15th in the nation, Penn State ranked just below #14 Liberty University, and just ahead of #16 Northern Arizona. Nothing against Liberty or Northern Arizona, I am sure they are fine schools with fine graduates. But if Penn State is going to get their brag points by being equals of Liberty and Northern Arizona, things are worse than anyone might have ever imagined.
UNIVERSITY PARK, Pa. — For the fifth straight year, Penn State World Campus is the most recognized institution in U.S. News & World Report’s annual rankings of the best online degree programs in the country.

The U.S. News & World Report’s 2021 Best Online Programs rankings placed Penn State World Campus in the top 10 of five graduate degree disciplines and the overall bachelor’s degree programs category.

The six top-10 rankings were the most of any college or university nationwide.

Best online degree programs rankings​

Here are Penn State World Campus’ rankings:

  • No. 4, online graduate engineering
  • No. 7 (tie), online graduate education
  • No. 7 (tie), online MBA
  • No. 8 (tie), online graduate computer IT
  • No. 10 (tie), online bachelor’s programs
  • No. 10, online graduate business (non-MBA)
Penn State World Campus has had the most top-10 placements in U.S. News’ best online programs rankings since 2017.

Renata Engel, vice provost for online education at Penn State, said the rankings are another indicator of the University’s commitment to providing a top-notch learning experience to its online learners.

“We are honored to be recognized in U.S. News & World Report’s rankings for offering some of the most high-quality online degree programs in the country,” said Engel, who oversees Penn State World Campus. “The combination of Penn State faculty who are scholars or experts in their fields, contemporary curriculum that is engaging, and staff that are committed to comprehensive support services create learning environments across the broad range of disciplines that support students to pursue and realize their educational goals.”

The Best Online Programs rankings include additional lists, such as the best programs for veteran studentsand the best specialty programs within certain academic areas.

Here are some highlights of Penn State World Campus’ rankings:

Penn State World Campus is No. 1 for its bachelor’s degree program in psychology, which includes a Bachelor of Arts and a Bachelor of Science. This was the first year U.S. News included a psychology program ranking.

In the graduate program rankings, Penn State World Campus was No. 3 for graduate engineering management and No. 9 for business analytics among online MBA programs.

Each year, U.S. News develops the rankings based on statistical surveys submitted by colleges and universities as well as data collected in a separate peer-reputation survey.

Surveys for the bachelor’s programs ranked more than 350 institutions on the categories of engagement, services and technology, faculty credentials and training, and expert opinion.

The surveys for graduate degree programs measured those four categories as well as student excellence.

Best online degree programs for veterans​

U.S. News also ranked Penn State World Campus in the top 10 of six categories of its Best Online Programs for Veterans lists.

Those rankings are based on the same factors as its Best Online Programs rankings in addition to an institution’s ability to make college more affordable and accessible through the GI Bill® or other grant-in-aid programs designed for military students. The rankings also factor in whether the programs enroll at least 25 military students at the undergraduate level and 10 at the graduate level.

Here are the rankings for Penn State World Campus in Best Online Programs for Veterans:

  • No. 1, online graduate engineering
  • No. 3, online graduate business (non-MBA)
  • No. 3, online graduate education
  • No. 5, online MBA
  • No. 5, online computer IT
  • No. 7 (tie), online bachelor’s
Penn State was one of the pioneers in online higher education when it launched Penn State World Campus in 1998.

Now, more than 20 years later, Penn State World Campus offers more than 150 degree and certificate programs online. It counts more than 14,000 students around the globe and more than 25,000 graduates.

Learn more about the bachelor's and graduate degree programs offered online through Penn State World Campus.

GI Bill® is a registered trademark of the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA). More information about education benefits offered by VA is available at the official U.S. government website at https://www.benefits.va.gov/gibill.
 
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PSUFTG

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Yep. As I said, it makes for a nice PR postcard - until you look at the actual competition.

Here is the complete US News rankings list for this year, for on-line campuses. PSU tied with Colorado State, just behind the University of Buffalo, and just ahead of Illinois State: Best Online Bachelor Degree Programs of 2021 - US News
If that is your Brag Wall champion, you're in trouble. Sure, if you are going to do it - have an on-line University - better to be higher than lower, but do you think that coming in tied with Colorado State, in anything, is something Penn State should aspire to?

Meanwhile, when compared with the big boys, PSU comes in at #174, and last in the Big Ten 2022 Best Value Colleges - National Universities | US News Rankings
 

OaktonDave

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I see you added a lot more substance to your original post. Since I commented on your earlier one, I thought it was worth mentioning my agreement to a couple of points you added. You added: "I'm in no position to argue that what they do now is better or worse than the GPA + SAT/ACT scores method, but it's fair to say that the issue is more complex than simply saying that schools that don't require tests are automatically not being thorough or fair in the admissions process." I think that is very true, and for universities that are situated in such a way to do that - like the Ivies and other elites - they have never needed standardized tests scores in the process (I may have mentioned that in an earlier post). But the Penn States, Ohio States, and others just aren't in that same universe. The sheer logistics make it such that an applicant's high school courses and grades (and in some cases the high school they attended) and the standardized test scores are all they can work with for the vast majority of applicants. Performance and Art majors, and some other anomalies, are a slightly different animal, of course.
For what it is worth, Eric Barron had been walking back the whole "test score optional" thing, and was going to bring testing requirements back for 2022 - because it was a mess, and they never anticipated what a high percentage of applicants would go that route, I think it was over 60% - but I haven't heard any follow up to that, my guess is since he is now a short-timer he may just let the next person deal with it.
Given the fact that virtually every school now uses an on-line application, the statement highlight is true only if the school hasn't bothered to invest in the analytic tools that can more than handle the logistics. The data on most high schools is readily available and the classes a student took are going to be on the transcript. Why couldn't an automated system look at a student's GPA (weighted as appropriate for the high school), the courses they took, plus standardized test scores (or not) and weigh them against the program they wish to pursue? The answer is that the tools exist and do just that. The same system can also ingest information on extracurricular activities, leadership positions, non-academic awards, community activities, even part-time employment when in high school and credit the applicant based on what the school values in a prospective member of the student body. If the application requires a writing sample, that can be assessed for spelling, grammar, vocabulary, structural complexity and checked to ensure it isn't plagiarized, then scored and added to the other evaluations. At that point, the system can rack and stack the applicants based on all of those data points - all before the first human being is needed in the process. You can certainly limit your analysis to GPA and standard test scores, apply them to a predictive college GPA matrix similar to the one PSU used when I applied, then rack and stack based on those criteria alone. The primary difference is not the work involved, but the amount of information you've subjected to some review before someone starts making the yes/no decisions.

To the point I was at least trying to make is that I'm not sure if omitting standard tests is an inherently good or bad thing. If a school isn't going much beyond GPA and standard tests, then going to just GPA is a bad thing. If they're going beyond just the GPA numbers and looking at the student's courses of study to get a sense of their readiness for college and their preferred field of study, then the test scores probably won't tell you anything don't already know. I would still take the test and submit the scores if I was applying. In general, if a school isn't taking advantage of the resources available to do a thorough assessment of applicants one has reason to question just how good a school it is.

I do not know what tools PSU currently uses to evaluate applicants or what factors are considered. My son and wife have played with some tools that schools make available to help students in their planning and application process. The tools are based on what the schools use for evaluating applicants and give information on the percentage of applicants with similar credentials are accepted by the school.
 
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PSUFTG

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Given the fact that virtually every school now uses an on-line application, the statement highlight is true only if the school hasn't bothered to invest in the analytic tools that can more than handle the logistics. The data on most high schools is readily available and the classes a student took are going to be on the transcript. Why couldn't an automated system look at a student's GPA (weighted as appropriate on his school), the courses they took, plus standardized test scores (or not) and weigh them against the program they wish to pursue? The answer is that the tools exist and do just that. The same system can also ingest information on extracurricular activities, leadership positions, non-academic awards, community activities, even part-time employment when in high school and credit the applicant based on what the school values in a prospective member of the student body. If the application requires a writing sample, that can be assessed for spelling, grammar, vocabulary, structural complexity and checked to ensure it isn't plagiarized, then score added to the other evaluations. At that point, the system can rack and stack the applicants based on all of those data points - all before the first human being is needed in the process. You can certainly limit your analysis to GPA and standard test scores, apply them to a predictive college GPA matrix similar to the one PSU used when I applied, then rack and stack based on those criteria alone. The primary difference is not the work involved, but the amount of information you've subjected to some review before someone starts making the yes/no decisions.

I do not know what tools PSU currently uses to evaluate applicants or what factors are considered. My son and wife have played with some tools that schools make available to help students in their planning and application process. The tools are based on what the schools use for evaluating applicants and give information on the percentage of applicants with similar credentials are accepted by the school. Depending on the student and the school, the feedback can be very encouraging or very discouraging.
Agreed. The more the merrier/better. In that, I think we would be in complete agreement. Using as many helpful tools as possible just makes sense - so long as you can do it properly. And the more efficiently you can do things, the more robust you can get.

Does having a standardized test score preclude any of those things? That is a rhetorical question, of course.
Does a standardized test score, and particularly relative test scores, have meaningful value, for the vast majority of potential applicants - talking about broad demographics, not talking about choices between 1,000 kids who all score between 1580-1600 on the SAT? That, again, was a rhetorical question. Of course it does.
That is why they have been used for decades - and have been, along with high school GPAs - extremely correlative to likelihood to graduate and succeed, all other things being equal. The be all and end all for measuring likelihood of academic success? Of course not, that has never been the case, and the more other things - if they are correlative - that can be intelligently thrown into the mix, the better. Maybe there is some correlation of academic success that is higher for kids who grow up in households with cats, as opposed to dogs - I have no idea - but if so, and it can be measured, one can use that too (not trying to be flippant, just illustrating that adding in any measure, if there is some relationship, can't hurt). But that doesn't mean you throw out the single most predictive measures - like GPA and Test Scores - or any predictive measures, even if they are not perfect, just because you now also have "other stuff". Not if you want to have the most meaningful and useful process. That's all.
When you see large public universities, institutions who DO deal with large numbers of widely disparate demographics and various fields of study, throwing out (not supplementing, which makes sense, but actually eliminating - even, in some cases, condemning) things like test scores (and GPAs, believe it or not, are next on the block), it is most certainly for reasons other than "trying to find the candidates who are most likely to succeed and achieve".

It does all make for interesting conversation in the field of Higher Education. Of course, when all is said and done, it doesn't really matter if we do have all the answers - or not - because Higher Education is probably going to move in whatever direction it wants to move.
 
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OaktonDave

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Agreed. The more the merrier/better. In that, I think we would be in complete agreement. Using as many helpful tools as possible just makes sense - so long as you can do it properly. And the more efficiently you can do things, the more robust you can get.

Does having a standardized test score preclude any of those things? That is a rhetorical question, of course.
Does a standardized test score, and particularly relative test scores, have meaningful value, for the vast majority of potential applicants - talking about broad demographics, not talking about choices between 1,000 kids who all score between 1580-1600 on the SAT? That, again, was a rhetorical question. Of course it does.
That is why they have been used for decades - and have been, along with high school GPAs - extremely correlative to likelihood to graduate and succeed, all other things being equal. The be all and end all for measuring likelihood of academic success? Of course not, that has never been the case, and the more other things - if they are correlative - that can be intelligently thrown into the mix, the better. Maybe there is some correlation of academic success that is higher for kids who grow up in households with cats, as opposed to dogs - I have no idea - but if so, and it can be measured, one can use that too (not trying to be flippant, just illustrating that adding in any measure, if there is some relationship, can't hurt). But that doesn't mean you throw out the single most predictive measures - like GPA and Test Scores - or any predictive measures, even if they are not perfect, just because you now also have "other stuff". Not if you want to have the most meaningful and useful process. That's all.
When you see large public universities, institutions who DO deal with large numbers of widely disparate demographics and various fields of study, throwing out (not supplementing, which makes sense, but actually eliminating - even, in some cases, condemning) things like test scores (and GPAs, believe it or not, are next on the block), it is most certainly for reasons other than "trying to find the candidates who are most likely to succeed and achieve".
Agreed. FWIW, I have many concerns about PSU. The expense is beyond absurd, and it isn't coming with an education that matches the price tag or even seems to be moving toward matching the price tag. As much as I'd love to share the experience of being a Penn Stater with my son, I just don't see it happening. The bang just isn't worth the buck.
 

PSUFTG

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Agreed. FWIW, I have many concerns about PSU. The expense is beyond absurd, and it isn't coming with an education that matches the price tag or even seems to be moving toward matching the price tag. As much as I'd love to share the experience of being a Penn Stater with my son, I just don't see it happening. The bang just isn't worth the buck.
Sad. Stories like that have become far too common. Penn State should not be missing out on qualified students with strong family ties to the institution, but it is becoming all too common.
 
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kgilbert78

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And when will the academic profile and standing improve.
Yesterday, two friends said their kids went to Pitt because they liked it over psu.
That never would have happenedc20 years ago.
What is the academic profile of the student body? Is it any good?
Well, some would choose Pitt over PSU due to one being a city school--so there are many reasons for a school choice.
 

TiogaLion

Well-known member
Oct 31, 2021
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A lot of bashing going on, and I love a good bash but let me throw some of my own experience on the debate of whether or not it's a good value. I've have two recent graduates plus one in school right now. If your children are inquisitive and will ask questions and visit their professors to challenge them on the finer points of lecture than they will be afforded opportunities beyond imagination. If your children are the type to just go with the flow and do the minimum to get a grade than their experience will not be as enriching.

It you have the first type of child than Penn State is worth all the cost and more. If not, you'll have to decide if the beautiful campus and town that are as safe as any place in the US (ever feel scared walking around campus or town...no!), fun parties, football, concerts, plays, etc are worth it or not.

In my opinion, there is no better environment to pass from high school to adulthood.

@BobPSU92 sorry if this upsets you.
 

BobPSU92

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
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A lot of bashing going on, and I love a good bash but let me throw some of my own experience on the debate of whether or not it's a good value. I've have two recent graduates plus one in school right now. If your children are inquisitive and will ask questions and visit their professors to challenge them on the finer points of lecture than they will be afforded opportunities beyond imagination. If your children are the type to just go with the flow and do the minimum to get a grade than their experience will not be as enriching.

It you have the first type of child than Penn State is worth all the cost and more. If not, you'll have to decide if the beautiful campus and town that are as safe as any place in the US (ever feel scared walking around campus or town...no!), fun parties, football, concerts, plays, etc are worth it or not.

In my opinion, there is no better environment to pass from high school to adulthood.

@BobPSU92 sorry if this upsets you.

Yes, this upsets me. I don’t appreciate a positive view of Penn State. We cannot have nice things. Now,

* Strong academics. Rankings, schmankings. Still, some rankings have Penn State high.

* Excellent research. Huge research enterprise. Broader research portfolio than most schools.

* Beautiful campus.

* Largest alumni network.

* Strong brand.

Still, f*ck us. We suck. 😞
 

OaktonDave

Active member
Oct 12, 2021
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A lot of bashing going on, and I love a good bash but let me throw some of my own experience on the debate of whether or not it's a good value. I've have two recent graduates plus one in school right now. If your children are inquisitive and will ask questions and visit their professors to challenge them on the finer points of lecture than they will be afforded opportunities beyond imagination. If your children are the type to just go with the flow and do the minimum to get a grade than their experience will not be as enriching.

It you have the first type of child than Penn State is worth all the cost and more. If not, you'll have to decide if the beautiful campus and town that are as safe as any place in the US (ever feel scared walking around campus or town...no!), fun parties, football, concerts, plays, etc are worth it or not.

In my opinion, there is no better environment to pass from high school to adulthood.

@BobPSU92 sorry if this upsets you.
I'm writing from the perspective of someone who is looking at paying out-of-state tuition - $36K per year for the first two years jumping to $40K per year for the last two. A friend of mine is third generation PSU and a season ticket holder. He loves PSU as much as anybody, but that expense and the lack of financial assistance offered by the school is sending his son to other schools. The kid is an excellent student at one of Virginia's better high schools and very active at the school. The top of their list is a large public university with a nice campus, very good programs in his field of interest, and a robust athletic department. The tuition is lower, and the school is offering him more assistance based on his planned participation in marching band than PSU is offering in total. Is the school PSU? Not quite. Is the difference between the schools worth the $10K/year in additional expense at PSU? My heart and the heart of the kid's dad says "yes," but my head says "no."
 

GrimReaper

Well-known member
Oct 12, 2021
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A lot of bashing going on, and I love a good bash but let me throw some of my own experience on the debate of whether or not it's a good value. I've have two recent graduates plus one in school right now. If your children are inquisitive and will ask questions and visit their professors to challenge them on the finer points of lecture than they will be afforded opportunities beyond imagination. If your children are the type to just go with the flow and do the minimum to get a grade than their experience will not be as enriching.

It you have the first type of child than Penn State is worth all the cost and more. If not, you'll have to decide if the beautiful campus and town that are as safe as any place in the US (ever feel scared walking around campus or town...no!), fun parties, football, concerts, plays, etc are worth it or not.

In my opinion, there is no better environment to pass from high school to adulthood.

@BobPSU92 sorry if this upsets you.

The same can be said of many other schools where the cost of attendance is considerably less.
 
Oct 12, 2021
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The same can be said of many other schools where the cost of attendance is considerably less.
On the surface, the cost of a PSU education is a brutal fact that the PSU brain trust cannot just explain away. As long as students keep coming to PSU from outside of the Keystone State, the brain trust's implicit message is that no explanation is necessary.
 
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Bertrand

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Nov 2, 2021
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And how much more expensive is it than Pitt? Could it be that Pa refuses to invest in anything that would actually grow the economy? Check out the level of state support in Virginia vs Pa. Virginia and North Carolina actually care about their state affiliated universities. Penn State generates more industry sponsored research than all Pa universities combined. A ton of good things here. Just stuck in a backward and declining economic backwater.
 

PSUFTG

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2021
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And how much more expensive is it than Pitt? Could it be that Pa refuses to invest in anything that would actually grow the economy? Check out the level of state support in Virginia vs Pa. Virginia and North Carolina actually care about their state affiliated universities. Penn State generates more industry sponsored research than all Pa universities combined. A ton of good things here. Just stuck in a backward and declining economic backwater.
How much financial support does the Commonwealth provide to Penn State?
Between the General Appropriation - about $350 million per year - and the Capital Appropriation - about $500 million per year. (If you wanted to add in PHEAA grants and other miscellaneous items, you are probably at right about one billion). That is more than any other school in the Big Ten, IIRC. Should it be more than that, or less than that? That is an issue that could be debated, but the figures are what they are.
How that compares to all the universities in Virginia and North Carolina, I don't know (though I think UNC Chapell Hill receives about $300 million in recent years, in General Appropriations. Not sure what, if any, they typically receive in Capital Appropriations). Do you have those figures? Could you share them?
 

Nitwit

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Oct 12, 2021
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And what would you have Penn State do? A state with a rapidly declining college age population and an economic backwater outside of Philly and Pittsburgh. No signs of improved investment from the state government. You attract students from outside the commonwealth. Lots of bright kids from Jersey and New York. All good!
Penn State does not compete with other Big 10 schools for students except maybe Rutgers and Maryland. Who decides do I want to go to PSU or Indiana? They compete with Pitt, Temple, smaller state schools like West Chester, and other public or private schools like Lehigh, Bucknell, Susquehanna, Delaware, Widener, Gettysburg, CMU, etc. and some out of state like Towson, Rider, West Virginia, College of NJ, Syracuse, and SUNY. Obviously there is a wide range of costs and academic ratings among them for all levels of high school applicants.
 
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EddyS

Member
Oct 25, 2021
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Eliminating standardized aptitude tests is ridiculous.
Do you think a 3.5 gpa at the best high school in the commonwealth is comparable to a 3.5 gpa at an inner city high school. I dont think they are remotely equivalent. This discriminates against the quality middle class kid and supports the obsessive desire for “ diversity.”
I would have no problem eliminating aptitude tests for achievement tests( I.e. what have you done versus what could you do).
This school wouldn’t begin to share the migration of academic achievement of enrollees over the last decade or two. Enough of this silliness of publishing the student profile by acceptances since something like 1/3 of accepted students actually enroll.
 

EddyS

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Oct 25, 2021
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And what would you have Penn State do? A state with a rapidly declining college age population and an economic backwater outside of Philly and Pittsburgh. No signs of improved investment from the state government. You attract students from outside the commonwealth. Lots of bright kids from Jersey and New York. All good!
The school’s mission is to educate average Commonwealth students NOT to educate people from outside the Commonwealth. This out of state trend is a betrayal of the school’s mission.
 
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PSUFTG

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The school’s mission is to educate average Commonwealth students NOT to educate people from outside the Commonwealth. This out of state trend is a betrayal of the school’s mission.
Personally, I don't have any issue with enrolling high-quality Out of State and International students - but one has to recognize that as Penn State reduces the number of In State students so dramatically, it becomes very hypocritical to complain that the Commonwealth is not increasing appropriations enough.
 

OaktonDave

Active member
Oct 12, 2021
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How much financial support does the Commonwealth provide to Penn State?
Between the General Appropriation - about $350 million per year - and the Capital Appropriation - about $500 million per year. (If you wanted to add in PHEAA grants and other miscellaneous items, you are probably at right about one billion). That is more than any other school in the Big Ten, IIRC. Should it be more than that, or less than that? That is an issue that could be debated, but the figures are what they are.
How that compares to all the universities in Virginia and North Carolina, I don't know (though I think UNC Chapell Hill receives about $300 million in recent years, in General Appropriations. Not sure what, if any, they typically receive in Capital Appropriations). Do you have those figures? Could you share them?
There are always interesting numbers games when comparing state support to public universities. I have seen reports that make the state look generous to PSU and seen analysis that indicates that PSU receives much less per in-state student than the national average. I takes me back to when I to Accounting 101 as an elective and was shocked to find that it was legal to keep multiple sets of books that, while equally accurate, presented a different picture of an individual or organization's financial status.

To use the North Carolina vs PA example, if we are comparing state support to PSU and UNC are we comparing the funding given to the entire UNC system and all PSU campuses or just Chapel Hill and UP? UNC -Chapel Hill has roughly half the students as PSU-UP, so how is that disparity accounted for? Beyond that, if we want an accurate picture, shouldn't we also compare the state support to all state schools? Does one account for population size and demographic differences? If those challenges aren't enough, the structure of state higher education programs vary greatly from state to state making a legitimate apples-to-apples comparison even more difficult.