Firing of Frank Martin: how it all went down

[18IsTheMan]

Predictably, some of the players were bummed. The article focuses mainly on Reese, who won't be here next year. Of course, you feel a little bad for the players, but you do have to look at the big picture. It was Year 10. If it was Year 4, 5 or 6, that's a different story. But by Year 10, Players are obviously just looking at how this single year went and not the cumulative body of work.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259438934.html

 

[be cocky]

Predictably, some of the players were bummed. The article focuses mainly on Reese, who won't be here next year. Of course, you feel a little bad for the players, but you do have to look at the big picture. It was Year 10. If it was Year 4, 5 or 6, that's a different story. But by Year 10, Players are obviously just looking at how this single year went and not the cumulative body of work.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259438934.html

tough read. hopefully we can get someone soon and give these guys something to think about. we need to keep the core guys at the very least. hate this for all involved but that’s life.

 

[18IsTheMan]

tough read. hopefully we can get someone soon and give these guys something to think about. we need to keep the core guys at the very least. hate this for all involved but that’s life.

Yeah, I definitely feel for the players in that I understand how life is at that age. You're much more shortsighted at that age, which isn't a criticism. They just aren't looking at the 10 year big picture, which is fine, b/c that's not their job.

I like Frank and hope wherever he coaches next he takes that team to the NCAAT next season. He deserves it. It just wasn't working here any longer.

 

[Fried Chicken]

While I feel for the players, it’s evident the standard was too low. Reese sees Frank as a success because he left it all out on the court. That sounds good in little league and maybe even in life, but in this sport you have to achieve something. I know they are biased and that’s part of the reason they are shocked…but is it REALLY that shocking for their coach to get fired in year 10 after no postseason? I’m afraid Martin maybe didn’t make the goals clear enough for this team. Regardless of how many wins, this season was a failure. Doesn’t mean the players didn’t learn tough lessons and will grow up to be better men. But from a purely basketball standpoint, it was a failure. They shouldn’t have been surprised, and the fact they kept looking out the window to see his car shows they really knew it was a possibility.

 

[princebombs]

If we lose Devin Carter, we are screwed in the short term. I'm afraid the big reset is coming unless we land someone of significance. This isn't a program built to just immediately rise up although Horn was pretty successful with Odom's players the first 2 years if I recall.

 

[KingWard]

You can't pay a guy $3 million a year, not to mention what his multitudinous staff is paid, merely to compete. Some people need to get this in perspective. This is a business; you have to keep that in focus.

 

[18IsTheMan]

If we lose Devin Carter, we are screwed in the short term. I'm afraid the big reset is coming unless we land someone of significance. This isn't a program built to just immediately rise up although Horn was pretty successful with Odom's players the first 2 years if I recall.

There is one guy out there who has shown he can consistently win with lesser talent.

 

[18IsTheMan]

You can't pay a guy $3 million a year, not to mention what his multitudinous staff is paid, merely to compete. Some people need to get this in perspective. This is a business; you have to keep that in focus.

All business is results-based. In this case, the primary metric is how often you make the NCAAT (and for some people, the NIT). In this respect, Frank lagged behind his predecessors, Odom and Fogler. Fogler took the team to the post-season 4 times in 8 seasons, with two NCAAT appearances (albeit forgettable ones). Odom took the team to the postseason 4 out of 7 seasons with one NCAAT appearance. Frank managed 2 postseason in 9 seasons (throwing out the Covid year), with 1 NCAAT appearance (albeit an extremely memorable one).

So, some have argued that Frank has performed at about our historical norm, but he was slightly worse in terms of the primary metric compared to both Fogler and Odom.

 

[KingWard]

All business is results-based. In this case, the primary metric is how often you make the NCAAT (and for some people, the NIT). In this respect, Frank lagged behind his predecessors, Odom and Fogler. Fogler took the team to the post-season 4 times in 8 seasons, with two NCAAT appearances (albeit forgettable ones). Odom took the team to the postseason 4 out of 7 seasons with one NCAAT appearance. Frank managed 2 postseason in 9 seasons (throwing out the Covid year), with 1 NCAAT appearance (albeit an extremely memorable one).

So, some have argued that Frank has performed at about our historical norm, but he was slightly worse in terms of the primary metric compared to both Fogler and Odom.

The return was not worth the investment, irrespective of the previous performance of others. I must say that trotting out what others haven't or have done to judge the sustainability of a current person is one the most empty-headed approaches imaginable.

 

[18IsTheMan]

The return was not worth the investment, irrespective of the previous performance of others. I must say that trotting out what others haven't or have done to judge the sustainability of a current person is one the most empty-headed approaches imaginable.

Not at all in this case. I would say it's rather empty-headed to disregard comparisons of the programs current state to prior years. Especially when you have fans who stuck their heads in the sand and argued that Frank was doing as well as we could reasonably expect a coach to do here. That argument does not hold up when you look at two fairly recent previous 2 head coaches. Now, was Frank fired because he performed slightly worse than Odom or Fogler? Obviously not. But it's fairly easy to look and see that previous coaches had slightly better success here.

Coaches are always going to be judged to some degree against their predecessors. Always. And it's fair. Is it the only analysis that one should use? Certainly not. However, in many cases, success is judged based on your program's historical norm. The standard for what's successful in basketball here is going to be much different than the standard for what's successful at UNC or Duke or UK or KU, etc.

 

[KingWard]

Not at all in this case. I would say it's rather empty-headed to disregard comparisons of the programs current state to prior years. Especially when you have fans who stuck their heads in the sand and argued that Frank was doing as well as we could reasonably expect a coach to do here. That argument does not hold up when you look at two fairly recent previous 2 head coaches. Now, was Frank fired because he performed slightly worse than Odom or Fogler? Obviously not. But it's fairly easy to look and see that previous coaches had slightly better success here.

Coaches are always going to be judged to some degree against their predecessors. Always. And it's fair. Is it the only analysis that one should use? Certainly not. However, in many cases, success is judged based on your program's historical norm. The standard for what's successful in basketball here is going to be much different than the standard for what's successful at UNC or Duke or UK or KU, etc.

Those applying that retro-comparison logic in our situation have been generally angling for the retention of the current coach. You know it and I know it. And it has been fallacious to the point of empty-headedness. To say that it's natural for people to think this way doesn't validate it.

 

[18IsTheMan]

Those applying that retro-comparison logic in our situation have been generally angling for the retention of the current coach. You know it and I know it. And it has been fallacious to the point of empty-headedness. To say that it's natural for people to think this way doesn't validate it.

But we all do it, whether we want to or not. We're incapable of analyzing our present without, in some way, thinking of our past. Whether consciously or not. We can't forcibly forget the past.

Your point is certainly true. Objectively, Frank's tenure was not living up to the investment we were making. That is the reason he was fired. However, a bit more subjectively, we can also see he was not doing as well as some previous head coaches. And, again, the main reason I point it out is that one of the primary arguments for retaining Frank was that he was doing as well as could be expected here.

 

[Fried Chicken]

If we lose Devin Carter, we are screwed in the short term. I'm afraid the big reset is coming unless we land someone of significance. This isn't a program built to just immediately rise up although Horn was pretty successful with Odom's players the first 2 years if I recall.

This is going to be the norm with the transfer portal. I hope we can keep Carter, but we’ll pull in some guys that can play from the portal.

 

[Fowlmoodin99]

Frank has become, at USC, at least, a guy who the hard, hard core fans (like sports board members) and the very casual liked (big personality) a great deal. Unfortunately, that's about 25% percent of the people you really need, and a large group of people who don't actively support he program. In the middle are the 75% whose seats and suites are empty.

As Ward says, a very bad investment.

 

[Atlanta Cock]

Predictably, some of the players were bummed. The article focuses mainly on Reese, who won't be here next year. Of course, you feel a little bad for the players, but you do have to look at the big picture. It was Year 10. If it was Year 4, 5 or 6, that's a different story. But by Year 10, Players are obviously just looking at how this single year went and not the cumulative body of work.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259438934.html

I find it interesting the players were so surprised. Not a knock, but do they live in an entitled bubble? We call them kids, but they are young men who certainly understand that P-5 MBB is competitive. Not everyone gets a trophy. Coaches paid millions per year to coach a game are held to a standard of competitiveness and success.

 

[KingWard]

...do they live in an entitled bubble?..

Can't speak from personal knowledge, but it isn't unlikely. Their incredulity almost requires that.

 

[SC95]

How many USC basketball players expect to compete for championships, and want to be a part of an NCAA tournament team? I like Coach Martin and wanted him to succeed at South Carolina, but I was bothered by the number of transfers, SEC win/loss record, and lack of NCAA tournament appearances. Martin signs a lot of 3-start recruits and prides himself on player development. It is difficult to build and maintain a winning program when players transfer regularly. Many of the current and former players admire and appreciate Martin, but it does not appear that top recruits feel the same way about Martin. I am thankful for the Final Four appearance and wish Coach Martin well.

 

[18IsTheMan]

I find it interesting the players were so surprised. Not a knock, but do they live in an entitled bubble? We call them kids, but they are young men who certainly understand that P-5 MBB is competitive. Not everyone gets a trophy. Coaches paid millions per year to coach a game are held to a standard of competitiveness and success.

Good question. I don't know if it's so much an entitlement mindset as it is just having a narrow view. The article is based pretty much entirely on James Reese's reaction. He was a part of the program for 1 year, which was Frank's 10th year. So, from his perspective, looking only at this year, I can see where he might feel the dismissal was surprising. Looking at just how this year went, he thought we were heading in the right direction and could take another step forward next year. But for him, it was Year 1. He was not looking at it as Year 10 and evaluating the cumulative body of work.

There was probably some hyperbole as well. Nobody could really think his firing was shocking. Maybe they thought it was unjustified, but not shocking.

 

[Sharris]

While I feel for the players, it’s evident the standard was too low. Reese sees Frank as a success because he left it all out on the court. That sounds good in little league and maybe even in life, but in this sport you have to achieve something. I know they are biased and that’s part of the reason they are shocked…but is it REALLY that shocking for their coach to get fired in year 10 after no postseason? I’m afraid Martin maybe didn’t make the goals clear enough for this team. Regardless of how many wins, this season was a failure. Doesn’t mean the players didn’t learn tough lessons and will grow up to be better men. But from a purely basketball standpoint, it was a failure. They shouldn’t have been surprised, and the fact they kept looking out the window to see his car shows they really knew it was a possibility.

I would be careful offering any criticisms for the players feelings regarding Frank. Yes at as a school we can want and demand more because that is fair. But for these athletes, the came to use their four years of eligibility to play for him. Many of them turned down multiple schools to play for him and closed off certain bridges in making their decisions. They have the most to lose, especially if they do not fit into the next coach's plans or have to go to a school that is not as appealing because spots are thin or non-existent at their desired schools. They are not being kids or immature, they are simply expressing the feelings of an athlete who's life has been thrown in great transition, just as we would feel as adults if a CEO or Director were removed from our place of employment and brand new leadership was being brought in. I think we would all be just as opinionated as these players. Cut them some slack

 

[18IsTheMan]

I would be careful offering any criticisms for the players feelings regarding Frank. Yes at as a school we can want and demand more because that is fair. But for these athletes, the came to use their four years of eligibility to play for him. Many of them turned down multiple schools to play for him and closed off certain bridges in making their decisions. They have the most to lose, especially if they do not fit into the next coach's plans or have to go to a school that is not as appealing because spots are thin or non-existent at their desired schools. They are not being kids or immature, they are simply expressing the feelings of an athlete who's life has been thrown in great transition, just as we would feel as adults if a CEO or Director were removed from our place of employment and brand new leadership was being brought in. I think we would all be just as opinionated as these players. Cut them some slack

To be fair, the article pretty much centers on Reese, who only spent one year in the program here. He wasn't all that invested in Frank.

 

[be cocky]

Can't speak from personal knowledge, but it isn't unlikely. Their incredulity almost requires that.

i am unable to believe that is a real word.

 

[KingWard]

i am unable to believe that is a real word.

It was when I got it.

 

[okccock]

Predictably, some of the players were bummed. The article focuses mainly on Reese, who won't be here next year. Of course, you feel a little bad for the players, but you do have to look at the big picture. It was Year 10. If it was Year 4, 5 or 6, that's a different story. But by Year 10, Players are obviously just looking at how this single year went and not the cumulative body of work.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259438934.html

It could have been year 10 if we waited to see what recruits ended up doing and made a decision to let him stay a little longer if things went well, or cut the loses if they didn't. The timing is asinine.

 

[okccock]

i am unable to believe that is a real word.

its epoch

 

[Spinal Tap]

Anyone closely associated with GC basketball staffing, coaching staff, and players are processing this news in their own way.

I don't think all were floored by this. Now, they start absorbing it and begin forming their thoughts on the future.

Whatever they decide and act on has my gratitude for their time here till now. Whatever their futures become I have to wish them well.

 

[Fried Chicken]

I would be careful offering any criticisms for the players feelings regarding Frank. Yes at as a school we can want and demand more because that is fair. But for these athletes, the came to use their four years of eligibility to play for him. Many of them turned down multiple schools to play for him and closed off certain bridges in making their decisions. They have the most to lose, especially if they do not fit into the next coach's plans or have to go to a school that is not as appealing because spots are thin or non-existent at their desired schools. They are not being kids or immature, they are simply expressing the feelings of an athlete who's life has been thrown in great transition, just as we would feel as adults if a CEO or Director were removed from our place of employment and brand new leadership was being brought in. I think we would all be just as opinionated as these players. Cut them some slack

The person I am critical of in the post isn’t the players. It’s Frank. He set the standard too low apparently if they truly believed he did his job good enough. I knew someone would read it and jump to defend them, even if the criticism wasn’t of them.

 

[KingWard]

Anyone closely associated with GC basketball staffing, coaching staff, and players are processing this news in their own way.

I don't think all were floored by this. Now, they start absorbing it and begin forming their thoughts on the future.

Whatever they decide and act on has my gratitude for their time here till now. Whatever their futures become I have to wish them well.

They're guilt-ridden over losing him his job but are projecting that guilt onto others. It's a syndrome.

 

[Cocky99]

Frank checked out long ago. Everyone but the players and Ray obviously knew it. It’s odd how before the firing that the players were peeking through their blinds to see if Frank’s car would be in the parking lot or not…… then it was such a shock when it wasn’t! they KNEW.

 

[Game...Cocks]

Predictably, some of the players were bummed. The article focuses mainly on Reese, who won't be here next year. Of course, you feel a little bad for the players, but you do have to look at the big picture. It was Year 10. If it was Year 4, 5 or 6, that's a different story. But by Year 10, Players are obviously just looking at how this single year went and not the cumulative body of work.

https://www.thestate.com/sports/college/university-of-south-carolina/usc-mens-basketball/article259438934.html

‘The news shocked everybody.’ and​

"Inconceivable" False, the team had talked about it and were just pretending he would not be fired. Were looking at his car like Cocky99 mentioned.
" 'Some corners' of the fan base wanted Martin gone". False, the majority did.
" 'surprisingly' denied an NIT bid". False, we were never going.

 

[funktavious]

I'm all for a change if there is an upgrade in mind. If we're going to bring in some unproven coach on a hope and prayer that he some how magically makes us better we're making a bad move. I was all against firing him until I heard that Sean Miller might be the guy hired. If Tanner pulls that off, it'll be the biggest hire of his career. If we bring in a Southern Conference or OVC coach then I've lost all faith in him ever making a competent hire, other than Shane Beamer, which I think most people weren't really sure about but feeling much better presently.

 

[CWW]

Do these players realize they are PART of the situation? If we were going to the NCAA or NIT…we may not have a vacancy! USC pays their tuition...not Martin. He is well compensated for coaching and recruiting. He will be fine financially for the rest of his life due to his 10 years at Carolina. I wish he and his family only the best.

 

[KingWard]

Do these players realize they are PART of the situation? If we were going to the NCAA or NIT…we may not have a vacancy! USC pays their tuition...not Martin. He is well compensated for coaching and recruiting. He will be fine financially for the rest of his life due to his 10 years at Carolina. I wish he and his family only the best.

Exactly. Maybe if they had played as hard and as smart as he coached them to play, he'd still have a job here. In fact, I'd say it's definite.

 

[1Mcreekcock]

KW, I wouldn't say it's definite. Like in all aspects of life there are different levels of skills and talents. It is the responsibility of the coach to put all of the necessary pieces together to make a team complete. I do not question the effort of the this team but unfortunately all the necessary pieces were not in place to be a tournament team.

I like many on this forum wish FM had been more successful in getting us to tournaments but in evaluating the 10 year overall performance it just wasn't enough.

The blame should not fall solely on this years team.

 

[KingWard]

KW, I wouldn't say it's definite. Like in all aspects of life there are different levels of skills and talents. It is the responsibility of the coach to put all of the necessary pieces together to make a team complete. I do not question the effort of the this team but unfortunately all the necessary pieces were not in place to be a tournament team.

I like many on this forum wish FM had been more successful in getting us to tournaments but in evaluating the 10 year overall performance it just wasn't enough.

The blame should not fall solely on this years team.

Well, I guess in that case, if this year's players can identify which players should have been there displacing some of them, then those who don't feel they would have been displaced should blame those who weren't there to help, or alternatively, the coach that had to settle for some of them who were there. They should not be blaming the administration for doing what needed to be done or any segment of the fanbase who advocated it.

 

[1Mcreekcock]

Bottom line, to run a solid program the talent level needs to match or exceed that of your competitors. The coach has to bring in a CONSISTENT amount of talent to transition from year to year.

During FM's 10 years at Carolina he brought in some talented players, just not enough. There was also a problem with retention...players were constantly leaving the program early which meant that there was always a shortage of experienced players.