3 pointers
- Thread starter haywood jahblowme
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Shooting from pretty much everywhere on the floor has to improve absolutely everywhere next year. That should be priority numero uno this summer.
Ok.. I just have to point out that on the one day that we get a victory and everyone around here is in a fairly good mood for a change, it's haywood that goes negative. What???!!!??
Amazing the UNL shot a high percentage from 3 (38%) than from the FT line (28%). Maybe they should have stepped back and shot their 'throws from behind the 3 point line......
Buie's floater is one heck of a weapon. At the same time, his 3 pt shot completely disappeared. Buie and Kopp were the only ones who demonstrated they can shoot throughout the season.
Big hopes that Beran becomes a legitimate consistent threat from beyond the arc.
Big hopes that Beran becomes a legitimate consistent threat from beyond the arc.
It's not great to get thumped at the three-point line, but when a team throws up 32 three-pointers it's usually because a) they have a lot of great shooters, or b) it's a bad team.
100% agree that the 3 point shooting has to get better from pretty much everyone except Kopp. Kopp would be such a weapon on a team with an elite PG who can drive and kick. He's a dead eye.
Wanted to point out something with Nance and 3 pointers specifically. He had three different 3 pointers that were nearly down and spun out. A big part of this is due to his shot being flat- it leaves less room for error and makes it more likely that a ball will spin out exactly like we saw on three different occasions yesterday. Would like to see him add a little more arc on his shot so he doesn't have this issue.
Love the way he's been playing these last several games though. You can see the confidence growing. Would like to see him get more chances with his back to the basket within 10-15 feet. He typically has a smaller player guarding him, and he's improving on that little jump hook over the defender.
Wanted to point out something with Nance and 3 pointers specifically. He had three different 3 pointers that were nearly down and spun out. A big part of this is due to his shot being flat- it leaves less room for error and makes it more likely that a ball will spin out exactly like we saw on three different occasions yesterday. Would like to see him add a little more arc on his shot so he doesn't have this issue.
Love the way he's been playing these last several games though. You can see the confidence growing. Would like to see him get more chances with his back to the basket within 10-15 feet. He typically has a smaller player guarding him, and he's improving on that little jump hook over the defender.
There are a couple of guys on this seasons team that should not shoot3's. Obviously Young and Nance as well. Next season add Gaines.
While your assessment is right, regarding his shot not having enough arc and, therefore, making it less likely it will go in, it is nearly impossible to change a shot at the age of 20. In the overwhelming majority of cases, best you can do is practice, over and over again, to make said shot more accurate.
Not impossible, but really really hard.
I have seen way to many NU games live this year and I have spent way too much of my brain power trying to figure out what is wrong with this team. Here is what I have concluded and its dovetails with your comment on Kopp:
(1) Biggest problem with the team is the lack of a point guard. NU needs pg who is pass first and can defend. Neither Buie or Spencer are especially good passers or defenders. Both are score first players. Unless this is addressed through a grad transfer, this issue will persist into next year.
(2)The next problem for NU is that they have no one who can defend the oppositions shooting guard. I am more optimistic about this situation being solved with the current roster as NU can expect to have Gaines and Audige on the floor next year.
3) Defending the 3 is also an issue. While Kopp is the teams best scorer, he is probably an averageathlete at the 3. Because Turner has to defend and play the 2, Kopp has often had to play extended minutes at the 3. This problem will only be solved by NU going undersized at the 3 next year as there is no other SF on the roster right now projected to come back for next year.
(4) Overall the roster construction of this team could be a problem.
Next years roster by position with eligibility for next year:
Centers (3) - Young (so.), Jones (so.), Matt Nicholson (1st yr.)
PF (2) Nance (jr.), Beran (so)
SF Kopp (jr)
SG Gaines (Sr. / RS Jr.) , Audige (rs so)
Combo Guards: Buie (so.), Berry (1st yr.), Greer (jr.)
Have to be honest on this, I don't know what Collins is going to do about this roster over the next few years. BC Collins is fixated on the '21 year class, he is not likely to take another player this spring meaning he will focus on transfers. Right now, if Gaines were to stay and petition for an extra year (don't know if he is eligible for this or not), NU would only have 2 spaces left for '21 as these 11 all have 2 years of eligibility left.
In a perfect world, Collins will get a 6'6 SF and PG as grad transfers for next season. This would fill the roster and give him flexibility he needs to get the bigs the ball and give Kopp a few minutes of rest a half. This year has required Buie, Spencer and Kopp to play too many minutes and I believe it has contributed to bad second halves.
This just isn't true. Not close to the truth.
John Shurna, who is still playing professionally, changed his release point after leaving college. Really not a big change for John because....the mechanics of his hands were already perfect....he had a high release point 10 feet in. So it was just taking lots of shots with a tall defender in front of him. I had a dumpster of crap dropped on me when I asked if it wasn't necessary for a sophomore John to work on his release point.
Too many players to count who adjusted their shots in college and the pros. Here's one....Tyrone Corbin could literally not hit the broadside of a barn but was a ridiculous athlete. Turned into a reliable shooter.
Nance has the same issue with his release from three point range as well as 10-15 feet. It's a bit too low....not a lot too low, but a bit too low. It comes from being the tallest guy on the court for several years. He has a very pretty release, but needs to raise the release point. When he does that, there'll be more arc.
I'd argue that the biggest issue with Nance is that his parents focused on raising a well-rounded human being. That shorted him hours or AAU ball and thousands and thousands...tens or hundreds of thousands of practice shots. Nance is doing that work today, but he's a bit behind. He'll catch up...then watch out....and he has the benefit of being a very well rounded and thoughtful young man.
Maybe there's some literature/study on it.
Stephen Curry claimed he changed his shot in high school.
But my gut tells me that for every example you can find there are 100 that tried and failed to change their shot.
And that's why I said it's not impossible, but it's really hard.
Mind you, my opinion is very skewed by age. Younger kids, different story. They change it as they grow up anyway. From shooting it from the waist to a higher release point as they gain strength.
Good post- addressing a few of these items:
1) Yeah, Buie does have the ability to create his own shot off the dribble, BUT he's not shown to be a good passer off his dribble drives. And to be fair, he does not have great quickness. I think he's a more natural two guard that is playing the point since we don't have a great one on the roster...I will disagree on one thing you said about Spencer. While he does not have great quickness and has been careless with the ball when dribbling against better competition, I think he's got a great natural knack of finding the open man. He's got good vision- one of the skill sets that translates well from lacrosse to basketball.
2) Our defense is terrible pretty much across the board. Like you said, I'm hopeful that Gaines coming back next year will help out a lot as he has shown that he can defend most players in this league well. We've missed him big time this year. Don't know much about Audige on the defensive end specifically.
3) Roster construction is definitely an issue when it comes to the defensive end. Hoping that Gaines can help alleviate a little bit of this when he comes back and I think we could see improvement with both Nance and Beran as they both get stronger and fill out a bit more (more Beran on this point than Nance).
And one extra point...It's pretty incredible that we are the tallest team in the conference and sixth tallest in the entire country, yet we are embarrassingly bad at rebounding. Part of this is because our starting center has barely any hops (I love Young, but this is just a fact), but guys like Beran and Nance need to become better consistent rebounders. Yes, Nance had 14 yesterday and is averaging around 5 per game for the year, but he's got to become more consistent at hitting the glass. Both Beran and Nance are good athletes that should be better in this area.
Gaines tends to not take that many shots and from 3 he was adequate (around 30%) and even that might have been influenced by his injury. I think he is fine. We have seen centers develop that 3 pt shot (remember Olah? It became a weapon) and remember Young is a FY. Needs to work on it more in the offseason.
Several prominent players changed their shots over time. He never played against this level of competition before and is still adjusting
Isn't the centers job mostly to block out so other guys get RBs? They get their share but the focus is that the team get the rebounds. A lot seems to be that we are very young and guys have a hard time holding position
This is not an inevitable fate.
Look no further than Butler, height challenged, not particularly athletic, who only has two bigs:
-Golden - Sophomore - 6'9" with what appears to be limited wingspan. Maybe a bit more hops than Young. But not by much. Averages 3.8 rbs.
-Smits - graduate transfer - Played only 15 games and averaged 10 minutes per game and 1/8 rebounds
Their major help is Nze, junior transfer from Milwaukee, athletic, 6'7" averaging 6.6 rebounds, and McDermott, senior, not athletic, 6'6" averaging 6 rebounds.
They are not a great rebounding team. But they are adequate. They are -2.5/game on the boards in conference play. Weird stat, they are 8th in defensive rebounds, but opponents are also 8th against them.
Point is, experience has a lot to do with it. And Young and the group will probably become a much better rebounding team. Deficit of athleticism is a problem, but experience can minimize it.
Steph Curry is one thing, but focus rather on all the guys in the NBA - particularly the bigger guys - who have just gotten tons better at 3 pointers since leaving college. You can definitely fix and improve your shot after 20.
Not sure what the beef is with Young's rebounding. As a FY he is averaging 6.0 per game. Alex Olah had only 1 season when he averaged more, a whopping 6.9. And Pardon averaged just 4 his FY, before nabbing 8 each of his last 3 seasons.
NU has been and is the least athletic team not named Nebraska in the B1G. That has an awful lot to do with being a terrible rebounding team. Illinois leads the conference in rebounding margin, yet has just 1 player in the top 20 (Kifi) in rebounds (NU has 2, Nance and Young). Illinois is just wicked athletic at all positions and it shows on the boards.
Smith the center at Maryland had 20 rebounds against us. Yesterday the Nebraska Center, whose name I can't pronounce, had 17 rebounds despite being a Freshman.
Audige is considered an outstanding defender based on his time at W&M. Number one strength.
I am far from expert but I believe that NU's poor offensive rebounding has more to do with the team's offensive and defensive schemes. Remember the old adage, "follow your shot", not so much with NU that elects to drop back all players after perimeter shots to cover the transition game. With an offense mostly based on perimeter shots, no one is in position to get rebounds. I think this conservative defense is due to the lack of team speed. Having a quick, small forward, sacrificing height for speed, might do wonders for the rebounding stats.
NU’s 3 point defense has been putrid all year. Their zone is ripe to be beaten with good ball movement. Results in guys flying at the defender and taking themselves completely out of the rebounding game. Personally, I wish we would stay home with our man more often. It might result in getting beat one on one more, but you adjust if that happens. At times, it felt like NU went to a zone too early too often.
Honestly, I'm not as concerned with our lack of offensive rebounding. As you point out, that's more of a coaching decision to get our guys back on defense to prevent fast break points. And I'm okay with that. But we allow so many offensive rebounds, and that's not a coaching decision (obviously). I looked back at just the last ten games and we have allowed 125 offensive rebounds in those games (12.5 per game). For some perspective, there are only 21 teams in all of Division 1 (around 350 teams) that average more than that per game. Those are the best, and only one of our past ten opponents (Illinois) is among those top 21. We are averaging giving up that many across ten teams that all (minus Illinois) average below that per game. Here is the rundown:
Nebraska- We gave up 13 OR, they average 9.07 per game
Illinois- We gave up 13 OR, they average 12.83 per game
Minnesota- We gave up 12 OR, they average 11.61 per game
Maryland- We gave up 12 OR, they average 11.45 per game
Penn State- We gave up 13 OR, they average 11.03 per game
Michigan- We gave up only 9 OR, they average 8.79 per game
Rutgers- We gave up 19 OR, they average 11.79 per game
Purdue- We gave up only 8 OR, they average 12.45 per game (4.4 below their average!!!)
Michigan State- We gave up 15 OR, they average 11.07 per game
Ohio State- We gave up 11 OR, they average 10.07 per game
We're bad at rebounding. Has to get a lot better next year. For what it's worth, we average 7.96 OR per game- 310th nationally.
Kawhi is another guy who changed his shot when he got to the NBA. And as someone else noted, a lot of bigs have done it to learn how to expand their range once they get to the NBA. I'm not saying it's easy. There is chance of failure for sure. And in-season isn't the time to try to do it. But over this offseason - would be a good project for Pete. And to be frank, it's not like his current shot form is working very well. If the change isn't working, we haven't lost much - the downside is we took a guy who is not really a viable 3pt threat (28% this year), and then he continued to not be a viable outside threat.
Like others, I am encouraged by how Pete has learned to make an impact as a rebounder and interior defender, and started to let the offense come to him when there are chances rather than forcing himself. I think the scoring might gradually come back as he puts less pressure on himself on that side of the ball. And, well, it would be nice if we had 1-2 others who could create their own shot next year to take pressure off of him too.
Expanding range is not necessarily changing a shot. It is often practicing. A lot. And often happens in the NBA. They are 24/7 pros after all. Repetition is your friend.
Kawhi is a paradox of shooting that you see a lot. His positioning of his hands on the ball tells you the shot should not be going in. Yet, it does. There are more correct ways of shooting than others. But what really, really makes the biggest difference, is whatever form is more comfortable for the player.
No, he and Nance play the stretch 4. Idea is they take their defender out of the paint. Same idea with Young heading to the top of the key.
Except it just looks like Nance and Young will never be consistent 3 point shooters.
I hold out hope for Nance. He's been playing harder of late and hopefully that will carry over into next year.
For the Jonny2 and Max_Power segment of the thread ...
I appreciate the comments, but I disagree with the origin of some of the issues.
Buie - I agree that he's been horrible lately at finding a man when he drives to the basket. When he and Spencer get in that mode, you can see the body language of everybody on the court simply drop.
But I think Buie has really good overall court vision. I think he advances the ball before he hits the half court line as well as anyone NU has had in a long time. And I thought he shared the ball much more early in the season.
There are many aspects of his game that changed throughout the season. I think he has been MUCH less aggressive than he was before the injury. I think/hope the injury had something to do with it.
Also, for me, sharing the ball once you get in the lane, is a very solveable problem - especially when Kopp is camped out there.
As for Spencer, the board like him a lot more than I do. There's no argument about his effort. But I won't miss his ball handling, defense or outside shot.
Defending the three - I agree with you about Kopp's D. in gafct I thought you guys were gentle in your description. But I think the real problem defending the three-point line has been the interior defense. I think CC understands how bad the interior defense is, and has developed an "all hands on deck" scheme that leaves things pretty wide open on the perimeter.
The second the ball hits the lane, there's no more 1-on-1 defense. That's a long-term problem.
I also think this team has regularly been a second late with weak-side help when the ball is in the post. My hope is that will change as these guys get more experience, but there's some bad defenders on this team.
OTOH, their best defenders have been on the bench all season, so ... fingers crossed.
Rebounding - Plain and simple, this team doesn't block anyone out. And that surprises me. Collins' teams have generally blocked out consistently.
I appreciate the comments, but I disagree with the origin of some of the issues.
Buie - I agree that he's been horrible lately at finding a man when he drives to the basket. When he and Spencer get in that mode, you can see the body language of everybody on the court simply drop.
But I think Buie has really good overall court vision. I think he advances the ball before he hits the half court line as well as anyone NU has had in a long time. And I thought he shared the ball much more early in the season.
There are many aspects of his game that changed throughout the season. I think he has been MUCH less aggressive than he was before the injury. I think/hope the injury had something to do with it.
Also, for me, sharing the ball once you get in the lane, is a very solveable problem - especially when Kopp is camped out there.
As for Spencer, the board like him a lot more than I do. There's no argument about his effort. But I won't miss his ball handling, defense or outside shot.
Defending the three - I agree with you about Kopp's D. in gafct I thought you guys were gentle in your description. But I think the real problem defending the three-point line has been the interior defense. I think CC understands how bad the interior defense is, and has developed an "all hands on deck" scheme that leaves things pretty wide open on the perimeter.
The second the ball hits the lane, there's no more 1-on-1 defense. That's a long-term problem.
I also think this team has regularly been a second late with weak-side help when the ball is in the post. My hope is that will change as these guys get more experience, but there's some bad defenders on this team.
OTOH, their best defenders have been on the bench all season, so ... fingers crossed.
Rebounding - Plain and simple, this team doesn't block anyone out. And that surprises me. Collins' teams have generally blocked out consistently.
I've noticed this on more than one occasion this season, especially with Spencer. Even in last night's game against Wiskey, Spencer had Kopp to his left as he drove the lane and didn't even look for him, instead trying to take it to the hole. If he kicks it out to Kopp, it's a wide open 3 for our best shooter.
I know the difference between expanding range and changing shot, thank you very much. Kawhi completely changed his shot between college and pro. He used to have his right elbow hanging out chicken leg style, with the help of the Spurs coaches he brought it inside, completely re-did his shooting mechanics. Over the course of the few years following that he developed from being a defensive stopper into an awesome 2-way player.
That's right ricko, probably the biggest issue with accuracy is that elbow. So, instead of missing long and short you add left and right. Takes a little time but can be fixed.
Strength helps both accuracy and range. Obvious example is kids who aren't yet physically mature who shove it up from their side. But there is a line at which ALL players shoot comfortably and behind which they do not. Excellent form doesn't mean one can shoot deeper than where he/she is able. The line is the line. A person can try to drive more power into their shot by jumping higher, or by being stronger through their arms....typically it's both....and when they shoot behind their range, very quickly, inevitably their form breaks down.
What's interesting today is that shooting seems to have evolved to a focus on the release. Steph is an example of that...beautiful release. I'd argue that Kawhi has a beautiful release as well. Most every NBA player has a beautiful release.
I really think one issue with Nance is that he does not play with enough effort at all times. That said, he seems to be starting to understand the effort it takes to be successful. Double that said, its all for nothing if the guard play does not improve next year.