I can't believe I'm saying this, but I really believe Duke should recruit at least one scholarship player that can give Duke 4 or 5 years. In the era of one and done it is just a necessity to have two or three 4/5 year players can give you strong contribution.
4 and 5 year players...
- Thread starter jamsession3
- Start date
We currently have 3 highly rated upperclassmen. (Including sophomores) The problem is we are getting significant contributions from only one of them. (Hurt) Guys like Goldwire are important to young teams, so I think we should take a chance on one or two sleepers a year.
Over the last few years, Duke recruited Jack White, Javin DeLaurier, Antonio Vukovic, Jordan Goldwire, Amile Jefferson who stayed four (well five for Amile), Alex O'Connell, who transferred after three and well as the Plumee brothers. They thought Kennard would stay more than he did but he had that monster season. So, they have been doing exactly what you suggested.
The problem with that plan is that it is hard to get guys in the 20 to 50 range to come to a school where they will have limited playing time and be competing for it with guys in the top ten year after year. That is especially true since there are a number of schools out there that will promise them big minutes.
I honestly don't think Duke's problems over the years have been who we recruit. We have been bringing in at least 1 OAD every year, and at least 1 3-4 year guy every year (provided he doesn't transfer.) Some years it's 4 OAD's and 1 multi year guy (2018 with Bagley, Carter, Trent, Duval, AOC) some years it's vice versa like this year. Saying you want to recruit 4 year players is so much easier said than done, for every 1 Iowa there are 25 other schools losing every year with the same method.
Duke's problems over the years have been player development IMO. Why does it seem like O'Connell actually got worse over the years? Why has Baker not improved at all? Wendell Moore? Remember Marques Bolden? Javin?
Player improvement is not a OAD or a recruiting problem. IMO it falls on K and the staff, for whatever reason, our older guys just don't progress like they used to. Even UNC for all their recruiting problems, have success developing guys, see Garrison Brooks and Luke Maye.
Duke's problems over the years have been player development IMO. Why does it seem like O'Connell actually got worse over the years? Why has Baker not improved at all? Wendell Moore? Remember Marques Bolden? Javin?
Player improvement is not a OAD or a recruiting problem. IMO it falls on K and the staff, for whatever reason, our older guys just don't progress like they used to. Even UNC for all their recruiting problems, have success developing guys, see Garrison Brooks and Luke Maye.
First, I actually think Javin improved quite a bit from freshman year. Not as much as we would have hoped but he was a different player when he left. Also, I am not sure that it is fair to say that Baker has not improved. He is playing better d right now. But while we can point to players who disappointed, there was Quinn Cook, Nolan Smith, Ryan Kelly to name a few who were different players senior year than freshman.
Amile improved, but he was also a top 20 player in high school. Jack improved, as did Jordan. But it is an concerning trend.
Nolan, Jon, all three Plumlees, Jefferson, Kelly, Tyler Thornton, Quinn, Jack White, Javin, J-Gold, Justin Robinson and those are the ones off the top of my head. All of those guys improved to max out their potential in college while here at Duke.
I think not having a tournament hurts the memory of Jack, Javin, and Justin from last season. Those guys could've potentially been a part of something very special last season. Justin had found his niche finally. Don't know if that team would've won a title, but they were one of a handful who could've.
I think not having a tournament hurts the memory of Jack, Javin, and Justin from last season. Those guys could've potentially been a part of something very special last season. Justin had found his niche finally. Don't know if that team would've won a title, but they were one of a handful who could've.
Javin was a consensus top 40 recruit. Sure, he had marginal improvements, but IMO he provided nowhere near the production that a top 40 senior should be providing, his improvements were nowhere near some of the 4 year Duke guys that came before him. I'm just gonna have to disagree on Baker, he's fighting hard on D but he's still way behind, gets beat off the dribble just about every time.
I listed all of the recent Duke 4 year guys. That is kinda my point, prior to 2016, we seemed to develop our multi-year guys in an incredible fashion. Marshall Plumlee is the last 4 year I can say made HUGE strides from his freshman to senior year (Goldwire too I suppose, but we all know his improvement is 100% based on his heart and effort).
I liked Javin, but did he really improve? Same with Baker, but he still has time.
Last edited:
If javin had played elsewhere maybe so, you have to look at the level of talent that was with him while he was here and who he had to defer to sort of speak...he came in 2017 w/ Tatum/Giles/Bolden/Jack.....2018...Bolden/Bagley/Carter/Jack.....2019 Bolden/Zion/Jack......2020 Jack/Vern/Hurt/emerging JRob.....not to mention the excellent guards/wings that were here as well...even while playing with all that talent he managed 3 pts 4 rebs in about 12mpg including a freshman year where he really didnt play....he played defense and bought into his role, sucks that last season didnt play completely out...some of those other 4 year guys didnt have the talent at his position as well...his junior season was his best statistical season highs in starts, minutes, fg%, rebs, points, blocks, steals
Last edited:
If that’s who he will be, by all means may he find the best transfer option available.
Don't get on my guy Josh. He played the best he could under the delicate circumstances.
The problem is they are recruited over almost every year and do not have the chance to be a major contributor. They just sit most of their time on the bench. You don't gain confidence sitting and watching although the seats for the games are great!!
Our role players the past 4 years seem to lack confidence. Except for Goldwire.
Last edited:
The way Duke does things can make it really challenging for the kinds of guys we're talking about here. Each and every one of us would go back to the 'old' days in a snap of a finger if we could.
So what does that mean? Well, it means the way things are now you're going to be hard-pressed finding guys, who in their third and fourth seasons at Duke, are anything more than role and bit players. It also means that most years, Duke will compete for Final Fours and hopefully national championships. We came a bucket away in 2018 and 2019 and seemed poised for a similar run last year. It's gut-wrenching how all three of those teams saw their seasons end.
I mean, if you think about how a lot of Duke fans were unable to digest those three seasons, it's only natural a lot will lose their sh*t after this start.
So what does that mean? Well, it means the way things are now you're going to be hard-pressed finding guys, who in their third and fourth seasons at Duke, are anything more than role and bit players. It also means that most years, Duke will compete for Final Fours and hopefully national championships. We came a bucket away in 2018 and 2019 and seemed poised for a similar run last year. It's gut-wrenching how all three of those teams saw their seasons end.
I mean, if you think about how a lot of Duke fans were unable to digest those three seasons, it's only natural a lot will lose their sh*t after this start.
For Bolden, it was motivation and intensity. Be careful with the kid that comes in high profile, but has no energy when he is not a One - N - Done!
Things worked out for Quinn, Amile, Ryan Kelly, and Plumlee x3. Some guys develop, some guys don’t. Either way, we’ve never been to a final four without juniors or seniors playing a key role for us.
we have a ton of them. Duke doesn’t develop them anymore
I do not miss the days of Josh Hairston and Tyler Thornton sharing the floor together.
There’s no good answer. K goes after the best each year, which is fine. But the kids returning are, for the most part, role players. Plus, they have to adjust each season for the freshmen.
Maybe it gets in their head.
Maybe it gets in their head.
There is also no chemistry for the players that play 4 years and basketball is chemistry. Think about it when you think about Grayson Allen or even Jack White. They played 4 years at Duke and played with 4 different teams. Grayson had great chemistry with a couple of teams and not so much with others. What made the 1991 and 1992 Duke teams so great was they played together for 3 and 4 years in the main core of that team. The 2015 team was the only young team that Coach K had that got their **** together in a few months to make a run to a National title. Our 2001 and our 2010 were lead by Jrs and Seniors. AOC was another example of not finding any chemistry with any team while he was there and had the potential to be really good. That is what all of this OAD brings to a program. Even as great as Zion and that team was they were ousted by a team that had chemistry.
You made some good points because the new one and dones come in to show case.
If either Grayson's shot rolls in or Zion doesn't lose his man we're not having this conversation. Back to back seasons in the elite eight we were one play away. A proven senior takes a shot and gets a ****** roll, and a generational talent makes a bad decision. I'll take those two teams all day over the field in just about any season in the last ten years.
Last year's team had the balance most here harp about needing with experienced upperclassmen and young talent. I do believe they were a potential final four team as well. Those upperclassmen were role players, but they had experience. Tre was a sophomore but played older.
Yeah, we're struggling this year. Moore, Hurt, Baker, and Goldwire are the guys who need to lead this group. We have talent and upperclassmen. But remember, only Goldwire has tournament experience. Again, we're so spoiled.
Last year's team had the balance most here harp about needing with experienced upperclassmen and young talent. I do believe they were a potential final four team as well. Those upperclassmen were role players, but they had experience. Tre was a sophomore but played older.
Yeah, we're struggling this year. Moore, Hurt, Baker, and Goldwire are the guys who need to lead this group. We have talent and upperclassmen. But remember, only Goldwire has tournament experience. Again, we're so spoiled.
That's one way to look at it. But the other is we had a team with 2 NBA all stars and let a team hang around and lost to a team we shouldn't have. The Elite Eight is good but most outside the program view those 2 teams as underachieving. I hear it all the time from my Duke hating friends ha. Entitled? Sure. But those opportunities don't come along every day, even at Duke. And I'm not sold on this superteam next year. I do think we will be better. I do hope guys come back and think we will be good next year. This year I just hope our young guys improve, Moore gets back on track and we make the tournament. But most important I just want our guys to be safe and healthy.
Last edited:
2018 and 2019 we got extremely unlucky. For whatever reason, the basketball gods just didn't want us to win the title those years. Winning a title (even making a Final 4) requires some lucky breaks, UVA's title in 2019 is the luckiest thing I've ever seen. We beat MSU in the Elite 8 and I have no doubt that we go on to win it all.
Overall, you could also say that we were extremely lucky to beat Wisconsin in the 2015 title game (down 10 with 9 minutes to go I believe, and felt like we were being outplayed) I know it didn't go down to the wire, but we still got pretty lucky. So who knows, maybe things have evened out for us.
Overall, you could also say that we were extremely lucky to beat Wisconsin in the 2015 title game (down 10 with 9 minutes to go I believe, and felt like we were being outplayed) I know it didn't go down to the wire, but we still got pretty lucky. So who knows, maybe things have evened out for us.