AKB, thoughts on Chinese 'weather balloon'?

ApexLion

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Nov 1, 2021
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I realize we have the best thread ever on balloons and weather down below, but on a serious note I'm curious what to believe in this Chinese weather balloon vs. Chinese spy balloon story.

One of the strengths of this board membership is meteorology and all things military/espionage/aviation due to our relative advanced age and backgrounds (who reads books on subs? many of us on BWI).

Anyway, no political bs. What is this thing based on your knowledge and your reading of this situation?
 

BobPSU92

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Oct 12, 2021
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I realize we have the best thread ever on balloons and weather down below, but on a serious note I'm curious what to believe in this Chinese weather balloon vs. Chinese spy balloon story.

One of the strengths of this board membership is meteorology and all things military/espionage/aviation due to our relative advanced age and backgrounds (who reads books on subs? many of us on BWI).

Anyway, no political bs. What is this thing based on your knowledge and your reading of this situation?

 

BrucePa

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Oct 12, 2021
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Chinese balloons!

tumbex - asiancurvesandcleavage.tumblr.com : (57761718492)
 

Tom_PSU

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Oct 29, 2021
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This is incredibly stupid and wasteful by the Chinese. If they want secret, classified or sensitive data about anything, just go ask any member of Congress or any past or present President. They’re bound to have something laying around of value.
 

Woodpecker

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Oct 7, 2021
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If you were to place a spy balloon over the US, would it be over Montana?

BTW, from where did it come? I mean, when was it launched from where?
 

PSU Mike

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Oct 6, 2021
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I think simply ask them for an immediate live feed from the thing. If they cannot produce it instantly, you know they’re full o’ da brown stuff. Even if they can, they may still be full of it.
 
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Bones80

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Oct 19, 2021
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Why not just drop a weighted net over it and bring it down to see what it has?
 

LafayetteBear

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Oct 12, 2021
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If it’s a spy satellite it’s the dumbest spy satellite ever. Standard orbital satellites could gather much better information and wouldn’t be subject to the whims of air currents.
THIS ^^^^. This is what I read intelligence experts saying in several stories that have hit the news concerning this friggin' balloon. It's like the Chinese version of the Keystone Cops.
 

Nitt1300

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Shooting down a suspected Chinese spy balloon could be a lot harder than it sounds, former Navy pilot says​


  • Shooting down the suspected Chinese spy balloon is harder than it seems, a former Navy pilot told Insider.
  • Engaging it is no easy task, and attempting to do so puts people on the ground at risk, the expert said.
  • Still, there is a growing call for the balloon to be shot down.
Why doesn't the US just shoot down the suspected Chinese spy balloon floating around parts of the country like a growing chorus of GOP lawmakers, as well as former President Donald Trump, are demanding?

Because it's not that simple, a former Navy pilot told Insider.

Attempting to take out the high-altitude balloon with the air defense systems the US has is "very difficult," it's hard to engage it with fighter aircraft, and shooting it down also risks injuries and fatalities on the ground, explained Brynn Tannehill, a former naval aviator and senior technical analyst at the RAND Corporation think tank.


Balloons like the one that was spotted this week over the continental US can operate at more than 100,000 feet, and according to Tannehill, most US anti-air weapons systems were not "designed" to eliminate targets that high up.

Most systems "weren't designed to shoot down things operating at the kinds of high altitude balloons can operate at," Tannehill said, explaining that an aircraft would likely struggle to get close enough to it to get within gun range, either.

Pentagon spokesman Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder said on Friday that the Chinese balloon is estimated to be operating at about 60,000 feet, "well above the range of civilian air traffic or where civilian air traffic would normally fly." That puts it in range of some systems, but there are other challenges. And it is still a potential stretch for many fighter aircraft.

The US Air Force's top air superiority fighter, the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor, which the US military scrambled in response to the Chinese balloon, has a maximum operating altitude of over 50,000 feet, according to the Air Force. That could be pushed higher though, even if it's less than ideal.

"The F-22 is like a Lamborghini," Tannehill said. "But you don't take your Lamborghini off-roading because it wasn't meant to do that."

It could still take a shot at it. Most of the US military's air-to-air missiles weren't designed to operate as high up as a high-altitude balloon can fly because of the limits of their control surfaces, specifically the fins, wings, and tail, Tannehill said, explaining that "control surfaces lose effectiveness as you go higher." But, at lower altitudes, it could be an option.

The problem, the former naval aviator said, is that missile systems, both surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles, "aren't designed to attack balloons because balloons don't look like the kind of valid targets that they were designed to attack," like enemy aircraft or missiles.

"They don't move like a cruise missile," Tannehill said of these kinds of balloons. "They look more like a cloud or chaff, and modern missiles are designed to ignore chaff," a kind of radar countermeasure.

"It's very difficult with what we have, because what we have was not meant to shoot down balloons," she said.

Assuming a fighter aircraft like the F-22, with its M61 Gatling gun or missiles, or an air-defense missile system could get a hit on the Chinese balloon to take it down, which is uncertain, there's still the risk of causing injuries or deaths on the ground.

The Pentagon said on Friday that US officials had considered shooting down the balloon, but that they assessed that the balloon did not pose a threat while in flight or to Americans on the ground. Steps were also taken to prevent the balloon, identified as a surveillance balloon, from gathering intelligence on sensitive military operations, making downing it less of a necessity.

The military said there were also concerns that shooting the balloon down could result in safety risks from falling debris.

And the debris in question might not be just from the balloon. "If you shoot it down, then you've got raining debris," Tannehill said, explaining that if it's shot down with the M61 Gatling gun, "you're going to be spraying 20 millimeter rounds that will continue carrying on for miles and miles that could kill someone on the ground."

If missiles are used, then there's the possibility that one would miss.

"There's still a non-trivial chance that you're going to miss, and now you have ordnance going somewhere you really don't want it to," Tannehill. She added that "the mental calculus is that the balloon floating around up there is not going to kill anyone," but the approach to taking it out could.

Still, some have urged that the Chinese balloon be shot down, despite the risks.

Miles Yu, a former China policy adviser to the Trump administration, told Insider that it's "a blatant violation of American sovereign space."

"Any foreign object entering American sovereign space without permission should be subject to be shot down immediately," said Yu, a senior fellow and director of the China Center at the Hudson Institute think tank.

Yu said that the US has the "capability" to shoot down the balloon, but doesn't have "the will."

The Chinese foreign ministry claimed on Friday that the balloon is a "civilian aircraft" primarily used for weather research and that it blew off course. The Pentagon, however, has insisted it is a surveillance balloon, but there are no immediate plans to shoot it down.


Shooting down a suspected Chinese spy balloon could be a lot harder than it sounds, former Navy pilot says (yahoo.com)
 
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Rick76

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Oct 13, 2021
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As Harry Truman famously said, "The only thing new in the world is the history you don't know".

The Japanese discovered the jet stream during WWII. They launched over 9,000 balloons from Japan with explosives in them in the hope that they would make it to North America and cause damage and injure/kill Americans. Some 300 actually made it to the US, Canada and Mexico. One actually exploded and killed six people in Oregon.

One of the balloons knocked out power to Manhattan Project facilities in Richland, Washington for a short period of time.

There have been reports that the Japanese actually put anthrax spores in some of the 9,000 balloons they launched, but that the spores died in the cold elevations. I don't know if this is true or not.

And then there's Cherry Blossoms at Night.

https://www.history.navy.mil/about-...ectors-corner/h-grams/h-gram-057/h-057-2.html

The PRC is doing a lot of the same things in the 2020's that Japan did in the 1930's/40's.
 

BW Lion

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Oct 14, 2021
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Shooting down a suspected Chinese spy balloon could be a lot harder than it sounds, former Navy pilot says​


  • Shooting down the suspected Chinese spy balloon is harder than it seems, a former Navy pilot told Insider.
  • Engaging it is no easy task, and attempting to do so puts people on the ground at risk, the expert said.
  • Still, there is a growing call for the balloon to be shot down.
Why doesn't the US just shoot down the suspected Chinese spy balloon floating around parts of the country like a growing chorus of GOP lawmakers, as well as former President Donald Trump, are demanding?

Because it's not that simple, a former Navy pilot told Insider.

Attempting to take out the high-altitude balloon with the air defense systems the US has is "very difficult," it's hard to engage it with fighter aircraft, and shooting it down also risks injuries and fatalities on the ground, explained Brynn Tannehill, a former naval aviator and senior technical analyst at the RAND Corporation think tank.


Balloons like the one that was spotted this week over the continental US can operate at more than 100,000 feet, and according to Tannehill, most US anti-air weapons systems were not "designed" to eliminate targets that high up.

Most systems "weren't designed to shoot down things operating at the kinds of high altitude balloons can operate at," Tannehill said, explaining that an aircraft would likely struggle to get close enough to it to get within gun range, either.

Pentagon spokesman Brig. Gen. Patrick Ryder said on Friday that the Chinese balloon is estimated to be operating at about 60,000 feet, "well above the range of civilian air traffic or where civilian air traffic would normally fly." That puts it in range of some systems, but there are other challenges. And it is still a potential stretch for many fighter aircraft.

The US Air Force's top air superiority fighter, the fifth-generation F-22 Raptor, which the US military scrambled in response to the Chinese balloon, has a maximum operating altitude of over 50,000 feet, according to the Air Force. That could be pushed higher though, even if it's less than ideal.

"The F-22 is like a Lamborghini," Tannehill said. "But you don't take your Lamborghini off-roading because it wasn't meant to do that."

It could still take a shot at it. Most of the US military's air-to-air missiles weren't designed to operate as high up as a high-altitude balloon can fly because of the limits of their control surfaces, specifically the fins, wings, and tail, Tannehill said, explaining that "control surfaces lose effectiveness as you go higher." But, at lower altitudes, it could be an option.

The problem, the former naval aviator said, is that missile systems, both surface-to-air and air-to-air missiles, "aren't designed to attack balloons because balloons don't look like the kind of valid targets that they were designed to attack," like enemy aircraft or missiles.

"They don't move like a cruise missile," Tannehill said of these kinds of balloons. "They look more like a cloud or chaff, and modern missiles are designed to ignore chaff," a kind of radar countermeasure.

"It's very difficult with what we have, because what we have was not meant to shoot down balloons," she said.

Assuming a fighter aircraft like the F-22, with its M61 Gatling gun or missiles, or an air-defense missile system could get a hit on the Chinese balloon to take it down, which is uncertain, there's still the risk of causing injuries or deaths on the ground.

The Pentagon said on Friday that US officials had considered shooting down the balloon, but that they assessed that the balloon did not pose a threat while in flight or to Americans on the ground. Steps were also taken to prevent the balloon, identified as a surveillance balloon, from gathering intelligence on sensitive military operations, making downing it less of a necessity.

The military said there were also concerns that shooting the balloon down could result in safety risks from falling debris.

And the debris in question might not be just from the balloon. "If you shoot it down, then you've got raining debris," Tannehill said, explaining that if it's shot down with the M61 Gatling gun, "you're going to be spraying 20 millimeter rounds that will continue carrying on for miles and miles that could kill someone on the ground."

If missiles are used, then there's the possibility that one would miss.

"There's still a non-trivial chance that you're going to miss, and now you have ordnance going somewhere you really don't want it to," Tannehill. She added that "the mental calculus is that the balloon floating around up there is not going to kill anyone," but the approach to taking it out could.

Still, some have urged that the Chinese balloon be shot down, despite the risks.

Miles Yu, a former China policy adviser to the Trump administration, told Insider that it's "a blatant violation of American sovereign space."

"Any foreign object entering American sovereign space without permission should be subject to be shot down immediately," said Yu, a senior fellow and director of the China Center at the Hudson Institute think tank.

Yu said that the US has the "capability" to shoot down the balloon, but doesn't have "the will."

The Chinese foreign ministry claimed on Friday that the balloon is a "civilian aircraft" primarily used for weather research and that it blew off course. The Pentagon, however, has insisted it is a surveillance balloon, but there are no immediate plans to shoot it down.


Shooting down a suspected Chinese spy balloon could be a lot harder than it sounds, former Navy pilot says (yahoo.com)
You don’t know unless you try, especially over open waters.

I would hope that the US military has a means of perforating/puncturing it without destruction so that they can capture it in the Atlantic ocean
 

Psu00

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Oct 12, 2021
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If you were to place a spy balloon over the US, would it be over Montana?

BTW, from where did it come? I mean, when was it launched from where?
Don’t know how accurate this map is but,
if true, there should be serious questions for NORAD on why nothing was done when it hit Alaskan and Canadian airspace.

1675482202920.jpeg

 
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mmp121

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Our military has been experimenting with high powered lasers over the past decade+ to take out ballistic missiles at range during the launch phase. I'm sure it could take down the balloon no problem if they really wanted to.
 
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Jason1743

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Oct 20, 2021
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I call ********. The idea that it might be difficult for the US Air Force to take down a weather balloon is ludicrous. The idea that it couldn’t have been shot down in an unoccupied area of Montana or some other state is not believable.
 

Bkmtnittany1

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Oct 26, 2021
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“Once again, the U.S government is asking Montanans not to fire their guns at the spy balloon. You may inadvertently trigger an interstellar war.”
Tony Montana would have let it loose..."Let me introduce you to my little friend!"
 

Nitt1300

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Oct 12, 2021
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I call ********. The idea that it might be difficult for the US Air Force to take down a weather balloon is ludicrous. The idea that it couldn’t have been shot down in an unoccupied area of Montana or some other state is not believable.
did you fly fighters? I ask because the guy who said it's difficult did and you seem to know more than he does
 
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PSUJam

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did you fly fighters? I ask because the guy who said it's difficult did and you seem to know more than he does
Admittedly knowing nothing about fighter jets etc., I wonder how a kamikaze drone would work in this situation? As you know, they are very popular in Ukrane these days.
 
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psu31trap

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Oct 29, 2021
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did you fly fighters? I ask because the guy who said it's difficult did and you seem to know more than he does
I guess the logical question would be, why would it be difficult? If the balloon is carrying something dangerous, then yes, it would be dangerous and difficult. If the trajectory of the balloon will cause it to crash into a populated area, then yes, it would be potentially dangerous and difficult. If the Chinese government threatened the Biden Administration if it was shot down, then yes, there would be consequences. But to say that shooting down a balloon is difficult is silly.
 
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