Analysis of a Free Throw

[corbi2961]

Ran across this picture of what I think is Buie shooting a free throw and it jumped out at me. What do you guys think of his shooting form? I always thought watching a player shoot free throws was the best way of quickly figuring out how good of a shooter he/she was.

https://www.insidenu.com/2021/3/4/2...is-evident-as-it-picks-up-second-straight-win

 

[GatoLouco]

Shooting is not nearly as much about having a perfect technique as it is about feeling comfortable with your routine. Hand positioning, release point, elbow positioning, etc.

His hand positioning is funky. So are many aspects of so many players, elbows out, etc.

His shooting struggles, IMO, have a lot more to do with his shot selection than his shooting form (which is admittedly funky).

 

[corbi2961]

Shooting is not nearly as much about having a perfect technique as it is about feeling comfortable with your routine. Hand positioning, release point, elbow positioning, etc.

His hand positioning is funky. So are many aspects of so many players, elbows out, etc.

His shooting struggles, IMO, have a lot more to do with his shot selection than his shooting form (which is admittedly funky).

I don’t disagree but after teaching young players how to shoot over the course of so many years there are a few consistent problems that I see in shooting technique that lead to poor or inconsistent shooting. It may feel comfortable because that’s how he has shot the ball for so many years but using this picture as a snap shot right away I see two main problems, his off hand placement and the way he is gripping the basketball with his dominant hand, that explain why he goes for 30 one night and can’t hit Lake Michigan the next. Shot selection only exacerbates the problem. His shot needs to be deconstructed and rebuilt.

 

[GatoLouco]

I don’t disagree but after teaching young players how to shoot over the course of so many years there are a few consistent problems that I see in shooting technique that lead to poor or inconsistent shooting. It may feel comfortable because that’s how he has shot the ball for so many years but using this picture as a snap shot right away I see two main problems, his off hand placement and the way he is gripping the basketball with his dominant hand, that explain why he goes for 30 one night and can’t hit Lake Michigan the next. Shot selection only exacerbates the problem. His shot needs to be deconstructed and rebuilt.

And I don't disagree with you. Like you I taught kids how to shoot, through the initial stages of focusing on hand position, wrist movement, etc, to later raising the release point of the ball,

I was not advocating that any way of shooting is ok, that no corrections are needed. Proper shooting form exists and helps a ton. Often is just science, a ball is never going to go in as much if a shot is flat.

 

[loyolacat]

IMO There is nothing in the picture to indicate poor form.....the off hand is pretty inconsequential.....the shooting hand position while appearing to be not under the ball will swing into line as the arm elevates and elbow separates moving upward and the shooting hand moves more under the ball....the picture is not full detail but looks like he is getting under the shot with his legs.... I agree with the people that site confidence....he does not seem to fully complete his motion,(the equivalent of alligator arms in football) .I will bet he is a free throw monster in practice....But cant argue that technique makes a difference.......I remember years and I mean years ago Sports Illustrated did a scientific study of free throws and concluded that Rick Barry was so darn good because shooting free throws underhanded was scientifically way better....as it gave a great downward descent into the hoop

 

[NJCat]

Ran across this picture of what I think is Buie shooting a free throw and it jumped out at me. What do you guys think of his shooting form? I always thought watching a player shoot free throws was the best way of quickly figuring out how good of a shooter he/she was.

https://www.insidenu.com/2021/3/4/2...is-evident-as-it-picks-up-second-straight-win

John Shurna did OK with a funky shooting stroke......

 

[corbi2961]

IMO There is nothing in the picture to indicate poor form.....the off hand is pretty inconsequential.....the shooting hand position while appearing to be not under the ball will swing into line as the arm elevates and elbow separates moving upward and the shooting hand moves more under the ball....the picture is not full detail but looks like he is getting under the shot with his legs.... I agree with the people that site confidence....he does not seem to fully complete his motion,(the equivalent of alligator arms in football) .I will bet he is a free throw monster in practice....But cant argue that technique makes a difference.......I remember years and I mean years ago Sports Illustrated did a scientific study of free throws and concluded that Rick Barry was so darn good because shooting free throws underhanded was scientifically way better....as it gave a great downward descent into the hoop

Disagree. I find that the off hand is often the key to fixing poor shooting. In an ideal world, the off hand should not even touch the ball. The only purpose it should serve is to balance and stabilize the ball in fast paced game situations. Using a missile analogy, the off hand is the stabilizer, the shooting hand is the guidance system and the base and legs provide the thrust. All of these must be coordinated and synchronized in order to achieve a consistent and effective jump shot. Most great shooters will tell you that when they practice the basic fundamentals of their shot, they shoot the ball one handed and the off hand does not even touch the ball. In this picture you can see that the off hand is actually placed behind the ball rather than on the side to gently balance the ball. Given its placement, the off hand on this shot will have a significant detrimental impact and interfere with the rotation and trajectory of the shot. I will also add that I find the way he places his shooting hand on the ball to be problematic. The palm should not be laying flat on the ball. This leads to a poor feel for the ball and ends up in shooters pushing their shot. The ball should lay on his fingers with a gap between the ball and his palm. This results in a cleaner release and better rotation on the ball.

 

[GOUNUII]

Disagree. I find that the off hand is often the key to fixing poor shooting. In an ideal world, the off hand should not even touch the ball. The only purpose it should serve is to balance and stabilize the ball in fast paced game situations. Using a missile analogy, the off hand is the stabilizer, the shooting hand is the guidance system and the base and legs provide the thrust. All of these must be coordinated and synchronized in order to achieve a consistent and effective jump shot. Most great shooters will tell you that when they practice the basic fundamentals of their shot, they shoot the ball one handed and the off hand does not even touch the ball. In this picture you can see that the off hand is actually placed behind the ball rather than on the side to gently balance the ball. Given its placement, the off hand on this shot will have a significant detrimental impact and interfere with the rotation and trajectory of the shot. I will also add that I find the way he places his shooting hand on the ball to be problematic. The palm should not be laying flat on the ball. This leads to a poor feel for the ball and ends up in shooters pushing their shot. The ball should lay on his fingers with a gap between the ball and his palm. This results in a cleaner release and better rotation on the ball.

The off hand can do anything it wants provided it doesn't transition from balance/stabilizer to any part of the guidance or thrust. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The ideal release in a jump shot has no element of a push to it. Keep the elbow/arm out of the thrust. Extend the shooting hand to its highest point and practice releasing the ball with the wrist. With the palm facing the floor at completion. That gives you the best trajectory and most consistent/repeatable guidance and thrust.

Your palm talk is spot on. One other item. Verticality throughout the sequence you describe is critical. Shurna did not maintain good verticality with his shooting elbow and arm. His was not a push shot. His wrist release was really good. The flat trajectory came from a relatively flat lack of verticality in his release point.

I had great fun teaching kids to shoot. The first thing they learned, no matter the age, was lower body thrust, a sense of straight up verticality to everything they did and hand under placement to promote the critically important wrist flip finish. Getting the off hand out of the wrong sequences was the most common challenge among the younger ones. With age and strength they could mature to a continuously higher release point and add in the jump if and when they could.

BTW ... in my experience breaking fundamentally bad shooting habits/form is nearly impossible from about the 10th grade on for anybody who has played quite a bit of basketball. You can tweak, but the full body off restoration is really tough.

GOUNUII

 

[Purple Pile Driver]

I don’t disagree but after teaching young players how to shoot over the course of so many years there are a few consistent problems that I see in shooting technique that lead to poor or inconsistent shooting. It may feel comfortable because that’s how he has shot the ball for so many years but using this picture as a snap shot right away I see two main problems, his off hand placement and the way he is gripping the basketball with his dominant hand, that explain why he goes for 30 one night and can’t hit Lake Michigan the next. Shot selection only exacerbates the problem. His shot needs to be deconstructed and rebuilt.

He is shooting 83% from the line. Only Kopp and Greer ( who doesn’t shoot a lot) are higher on the team.

Do we have a picture of Berry or Beran or anyone lower than 70%. It would be interesting if they look superior by view of a picture than Boo who is actually pretty good at the line despite some unfortunate late game misses.

 

[techtim72]

Hand placement is not good but only one very important aspect of overall shot. GOUNUII nails it. Also, greatest free throw shooter of his generation, Rick Barry, shot underhanded. So he had that going for him.

 

[corbi2961]

He is shooting 83% from the line. Only Kopp and Greer ( who doesn’t shoot a lot) are higher on the team.

Do we have a picture of Berry or Beran or anyone lower than 70%. It would be interesting if they look superior by view of a picture than Boo who is actually pretty good at the line despite some unfortunate late game misses.

That’s not the point. Bad shooting form can be overcome when shooting free throws because you are standing still, can take your time and there is no pressure. That bad form will manifest itself in lower percentage and inconsistent shooting when you take that form and apply it in the flow of the game.

 

[corbi2961]

The off hand can do anything it wants provided it doesn't transition from balance/stabilizer to any part of the guidance or thrust. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The ideal release in a jump shot has no element of a push to it. Keep the elbow/arm out of the thrust. Extend the shooting hand to its highest point and practice releasing the ball with the wrist. With the palm facing the floor at completion. That gives you the best trajectory and most consistent/repeatable guidance and thrust.

Your palm talk is spot on. One other item. Verticality throughout the sequence you describe is critical. Shurna did not maintain good verticality with his shooting elbow and arm. His was not a push shot. His wrist release was really good. The flat trajectory came from a relatively flat lack of verticality in his release point.

I had great fun teaching kids to shoot. The first thing they learned, no matter the age, was lower body thrust, a sense of straight up verticality to everything they did and hand under placement to promote the critically important wrist flip finish. Getting the off hand out of the wrong sequences was the most common challenge among the younger ones. With age and strength they could mature to a continuously higher release point and add in the jump if and when they could.

BTW ... in my experience breaking fundamentally bad shooting habits/form is nearly impossible from about the 10th grade on for anybody who has played quite a bit of basketball. You can tweak, but the full body off restoration is really tough.

GOUNUII

Completely agree. My point on this snapshot of Buie shooting is that the off hand positioned behind the ball usually interferes with the rotation and trajectory of the shot. I’ve seen it happen so many times.

 

[NUera]

Do we have a picture of Berry or Beran or anyone lower than 70%.

Chase Audige is an absolutely miserable free throw shooter (56%) which is incredibly surprising given how often he gets to the line and the fact that he’s a decent 3 pt shooter (33%). That’s the one I simply don’t understand. (I also don’t know how he has more shots rim out than his teammates. Maybe they’re related? I’m grasping at straws here)

 

[techtim72]

Chase Audige is an absolutely miserable free throw shooter (56%) which is incredibly surprising given how often he gets to the line and the fact that he’s a decent 3 pt shooter (33%). That’s the one I simply don’t understand. (I also don’t know how he has more shots rim out than his teammates. Maybe they’re related? I’m grasping at straws here)

Rimming out is frequently because of spin so if his hands tend to impart sideways spin then yes. Also, and I don’t know about Audige, it is not uncommon to use different shooting techniques for free throws vs 3 pointers.

 

[elgatoloco_rivals308553]

The off hand can do anything it wants provided it doesn't transition from balance/stabilizer to any part of the guidance or thrust. Maybe that's what you were saying.

The ideal release in a jump shot has no element of a push to it. Keep the elbow/arm out of the thrust. Extend the shooting hand to its highest point and practice releasing the ball with the wrist. With the palm facing the floor at completion. That gives you the best trajectory and most consistent/repeatable guidance and thrust.

Your palm talk is spot on. One other item. Verticality throughout the sequence you describe is critical. Shurna did not maintain good verticality with his shooting elbow and arm. His was not a push shot. His wrist release was really good. The flat trajectory came from a relatively flat lack of verticality in his release point.

I had great fun teaching kids to shoot. The first thing they learned, no matter the age, was lower body thrust, a sense of straight up verticality to everything they did and hand under placement to promote the critically important wrist flip finish. Getting the off hand out of the wrong sequences was the most common challenge among the younger ones. With age and strength they could mature to a continuously higher release point and add in the jump if and when they could.

BTW ... in my experience breaking fundamentally bad shooting habits/form is nearly impossible from about the 10th grade on for anybody who has played quite a bit of basketball. You can tweak, but the full body off restoration is really tough.

GOUNUII

Lot of good points in this thread. I'd agree that bad habits are hard to break by about 10th grade, not just for basketball. Soccer coaches who can teach technical skills talk about 8-12 being the "golden years" for technical training. After that, the improvement is only incremental and teaching starts emphasizing tactics.

That said, I also think some kids, no matter how many hundreds of hours they work at it, will never have good shooting motion. Some kids get it right away.

Lots of ways to skin a cat with shooting. My coach Bob Metcalf, a member of two or three basketball halls of fame, wrote his PhD dissertation on shooting and advocated an unusual motion and hand placement I've not seen replicated elsewhere although Shurna comes pretty close.

As I see it, is keeping the motion and hand placement as simple and replicable as possible. When I look at what Boo does, I see too many opportunities for error.

 

[GOUNUII]

Chase Audige is an absolutely miserable free throw shooter (56%) which is incredibly surprising given how often he gets to the line and the fact that he’s a decent 3 pt shooter (33%). That’s the one I simply don’t understand. (I also don’t know how he has more shots rim out than his teammates. Maybe they’re related? I’m grasping at straws here)

Audige strikes me as having a confidence issue at the line. For some folks like him, shooting outside the act-react quick flow of the game puts too many thoughts in their brain. The slightest doubt kills a shooting percentage. You can just tell when someone is shooting with a hope vs shooting with a no doubt expectation.

I would suggest he try the "1-2-3 in" mental approach to his foul shots. That should be the only thought in his head. Think to yourself in a confident/determined voice "1-2-3 in" with "in" going through your brain on the release. I've had some success with that suggestion for players that have the mechanics down well enough, but are lacking confidence at the line. Works well on shorter putts too.

To kick it up a notch I would have Chase mentally divide the hoop into 7 areas. Center plus left, center and right on both the front and back of the rim. Then make him practice hitting each of those 7 on made FTs. It works.

More advanced FT practice tips involve blind folds.



GOUNUII

 

[GatoLouco]

BTW ... in my experience breaking fundamentally bad shooting habits/form is nearly impossible from about the 10th grade on for anybody who has played quite a bit of basketball. You can tweak, but the full body off restoration is really tough.

GOUNUII

A while ago there was some discussion here about changing one's shot. I said the exact same thing and there were plenty who vehemently disagreed. It's possible, but rare, very rare.

For the most part arguments were that player ABC and XYZ changed it. I can win the lottery, does not mean it's easy for someone else to win it.

 

[loyolacat]

in some ways it is a lot like golf.....you can have a lot of little idiosyncrasies but at release as at impact in golf you had better be in position. lots of people here have done a great job of describing the release position....but from the picture you dont have an idea of where he is in his shooting routinge...he may be getting ready to bounce the ball again for all that picture shows......

 

[clarificationcat]

I don’t disagree but after teaching young players how to shoot over the course of so many years there are a few consistent problems that I see in shooting technique that lead to poor or inconsistent shooting. It may feel comfortable because that’s how he has shot the ball for so many years but using this picture as a snap shot right away I see two main problems, his off hand placement and the way he is gripping the basketball with his dominant hand, that explain why he goes for 30 one night and can’t hit Lake Michigan the next. Shot selection only exacerbates the problem. His shot needs to be deconstructed and rebuilt.

I don't see a kid heading into his junior year in college deconstructing his shot and rebuilding it. It's not going to happen at that level, especially when he's hitting a higher percentage from 3 than Kopp. There was a confidence component to his shooting issues mid-season. He missed a lot of layups and floaters during his slump as well. During the worst of 4-game period (Iowa to 2nd Ohio State game) he was 1-13 from 3 and 2 for 16 from 2. That's not a hand placement issue. That's a confidence issue. He's never going to be Taphorn but if he can hit some floaters and layups when he's cold from outside, that would go a long way.

I would try to figure out what Kopp's issues are. He's been more inconsistent than Buie shooting from 3 this year and that's the primary reason he's on the court. He's decent in guarding guys down low but he is by far our worst on-the-ball defender. He's not a ball handler and and he's not a great rebounder so he needs to hit shots. As people love to point out, Buie takes some tough shots. Kopp generally takes catch and shoot 3's and doesn't force anything. He needs to hit a lot more of them if we are going to be competitive against good teams. He needs to be one of the best 3-point shooters in the conference and he needs to figure out how to get more shots off. In terms of things to work on in the off-season, he needs to work on a step-back. We can't run the picket fence for him all the time. He needs to figure out how to create his own 3-pointers when we need a big shot. That's pretty much a mandatory shot for kids these days. He will be a senior next year and he needs to have a scorer's mentality. He is supposed to be super competitive and confident so I hope that translates to him scoring 16-18 points a game consistently next year.

 

[MCC_Cat]

I don't see a kid heading into his junior year in college deconstructing his shot and rebuilding it. It's not going to happen at that level, especially when he's hitting a higher percentage from 3 than Kopp. There was a confidence component to his shooting issues mid-season. He missed a lot of layups and floaters during his slump as well. During the worst of 4-game period (Iowa to 2nd Ohio State game) he was 1-13 from 3 and 2 for 16 from 2. That's not a hand placement issue. That's a confidence issue. He's never going to be Taphorn but if he can hit some floaters and layups when he's cold from outside, that would go a long way.

I would try to figure out what Kopp's issues are. He's been more inconsistent than Buie shooting from 3 this year and that's the primary reason he's on the court. He's decent in guarding guys down low but he is by far our worst on-the-ball defender. He's not a ball handler and and he's not a great rebounder so he needs to hit shots. As people love to point out, Buie takes some tough shots. Kopp generally takes catch and shoot 3's and doesn't force anything. He needs to hit a lot more of them if we are going to be competitive against good teams. He needs to be one of the best 3-point shooters in the conference and he needs to figure out how to get more shots off. In terms of things to work on in the off-season, he needs to work on a step-back. We can't run the picket fence for him all the time. He needs to figure out how to create his own 3-pointers when we need a big shot. That's pretty much a mandatory shot for kids these days. He will be a senior next year and he needs to have a scorer's mentality. He is supposed to be super competitive and confident so I hope that translates to him scoring 16-18 points a game consistently next year.

As for Buie, I wouldn't try to change his shot at this point, he has a feel component of a natural shooter and sometimes it's not all about mechanics. Look at Reggie Miller for example.

As for Kopp, the one thing I noticed is that sometimes his footwork is off on his jumper. He shot an open 3 the other day and when he landed, his right foot was well past his left, instead of parallel. It's as though he may be shooting so fast he doesn't even properly square up. So this might be something mechanical he's dealing with that he's not even aware of.