AstroTurf and how it's effected the game.......

K2C Sooner

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I got to thinking about the fake stuff when we were talking about the speed of the wishbone in Barry's years. I really believe astroturf had something to do with it. Combine that with the drainage issues of regular grass turf and it really became a fast field. In the early days the fake stuff was really poor quality. I heard of many injuries and turf burns that wouldn't heal. We've all heard stories of teams letting the regular grass field grow to slow down the bone. (Missouri)

I grew up remembering NFL and college games being played in mud, snow and the cloud of dust. The new stuff just gets a good sweeping.

My question, is it good for the game? When did we install it? How many teams still use grass?

BTW, a Tulsa tight end lost his life to staph infection about ten years ago. It was blamed on rug burns from the turf. It should have been treated correctly............

Any thoughts?
 

WhyNotaSooner

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I don't have answers to your questions but do know that AstroTurf was a product of necessity. The Astrodome's first year, the ceiling tiles were glass, see through glass panes. But the players of the Astros and opposing teams could not see the ball due to glare etc. So they painted the glass panes and when this occurred, they quickly learned the grass would not grow. Dow Chemical produced the original AstroTurf and the rest is history. Soon it was the craze of sports stadiums. The product now used is nowhere near the original product though.
 
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CTOkie

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OU's wishbone was faster on fake turf, but it also helped that the playing surface at Owen Stadium was slightly elevated in the center of the field and sloped downward as it reached the sidelines. If you stood on the sideline, you couldn't see the lower legs of someone standing on the opposite sideline. This was done to allow the field to have good drainage in wet weather....but it also allowed the backs in the wishbone to run downhill as they ran on pitch sweeps. Imagine being a defender and having to tackle Pruitt, Washington, Sims, Peacock and Overstreet as they were running at you downhill....as if these guys weren't already fast enough.
AstroTurf has been modified many times since 1965 and it was very much a necessity at the Astrodome and other enclosed stadiums, but some of my worst sports memories include the leg injuries to Holieway and Gaddis, among others, that were clearly caused by artificial turf. When OU decided to switch back to natural grass in 1994 (and with it, improved drainage), I was greatly relieved...but still wondering if OU's football fortunes could ever recover.
 

Section22Sooner

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OU's wishbone was faster on fake turf, but it also helped that the playing surface at Owen Stadium was slightly elevated in the center of the field and sloped downward as it reached the sidelines. If you stood on the sideline, you couldn't see the lower legs of someone standing on the opposite sideline.

At it's peak, the crown was 36" before 1994, then dropped to 12".
http://newsok.com/article/2473889

There are still people who claim that one could only see the heads of players and coaches when looking across the field from the sideline, but at 36", I'd assume one or the other was sitting on the bench. But even at 36", it was very noticeable from the stands.

I still think of that 1985 game vs. Miami. :mad: Miami's defense, Testaverde, Aikman, Shepard, Holieway, Irvin.... what a horrible classic.
 
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CTOkie

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At it's peak, the crown was 36" before 1994, then dropped to 12".
http://newsok.com/article/2473889

There are still people who claim that one could only see the heads of players and coaches when looking across the field from the sideline, but at 36", I'd assume one or the other was sitting on the bench. But even at 36", it was very noticeable from the stands.

I still think of that 1985 game vs. Miami. :mad: They defended "uphill" quite well.
I believe those three games/losses with Miami in 1985, 1986 and the 1988 Orange Bowl after the 1987 season, marked the beginning of the end of the wishbone era for OU. Three of the greatest teams OU ever had were clearly over-matched each time by Miami's NFL caliber offense and defense.
I think Coach Gibbs, in addition to trying to rebuild the program from its probation period following Switzer, also had to deal with OU changing its offensive schemes to a more balanced attack...and this was reflected in Cale Gundy's recruitment in 1990.
 
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virgie76712

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Over 1/2 of Div. 1 schools now play their home games on infilled (yes, infilled) artificial grass surfaces. In the Big 12, OU, Iowa State and TCU play on natural grass.

The UIL will no longer schedule high school playoff games on natural grass fields. The UIL sites safety. Baylor couldn't get the UIL to return phone calls till 2004 when they installed Prestige brand (now part of Fieldturf). Today, Baylor Stadium is a Texas high school playoff mecca.

During the off season OU installed Astroturf brand on their baseball field. First I know of with artificial base paths and mound. UT's Dishe-Falk Field as been fake forever.
 
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Over 1/2 of Div. 1 schools now play their home games on infilled (yes, infilled) artificial grass surfaces. In the Big 12, OU, Iowa State and TCU play on natural grass.

The UIL will no longer schedule high school playoff games on natural grass fields. The UIL sites safety. Baylor couldn't get the UIL to return phone calls till 2004 when they installed Prestige brand (now part of Fieldturf). Today, Baylor Stadium is a Texas high school playoff mecca.

During the off season OU installed Astroturf brand on their baseball field. First I know of with artificial base paths and mound. UT's Dishe-Falk Field as been fake forever.


SI, that's just not true about UIL. UIL has nothing to do with the location, or field composition of playoff games, except for the state championship games, and they only got involved in that a little over a decade ago. UIL will even all teams in Texas to play games outside of the state. Everything about a playoff game, before the state final, is a negotiation between the two schools. The exception to that is if they teams have played in the last five years, and one of the teams lost a coin flip to determine the location of the previous game. Then the other team gets to choose the next one in that five year period.

Most coaches prefer to play their teams playoff games on artificial surfaces in case the weather gets really bad. They want to have a reasonable facsimile of a football game. Real grass fields tend to be already pretty torn up by mid November and later.

As for K2C's original questions, Astroturf was installed in the Astrodome in 1965. The intent was to have the roof of the dome have panels in it, so that sunlight could come through and grow grass. But the grass didn't grow very well, and the panels made seeing fly balls, a ridiculously hard task. So on short notice, they allowed Monsanto to install their new plastic grass.

Not sure, but I don't think OU ever had true Astroturf. I remember the talk in 1970 that we were going to install artificial turf and a lot of us wondered if you could use plastic grass outside. The plastic installed on Owen Field was called Tartan Turf. It was very different from Astroturf.

Astroturf was like blades of plastic grass. Not long after the original, rubber pads were installed under whatever green surface was being played on. But the original in the Dome had no pad. Because the longer plastic grass blades would go horizontal after being played on and rained on and other factors, the Astroturf after time would get really slick. It was horrible to play on. One of the reasons OUr wishbone didn't work so well against Bama in the 1970 Astro Bluebonnet Bowl was because of the slickness of the field.

OU's tartan turf had little tiny fibers just meshed together, more like a carpet than fake grass. It was installed at OU in 1970, during the summer. A dozen players' summer jobs were doing the installation. It was really hot work, as you might suspect.

We had to find different shoes to wear on it. Ironically, they ended up choosing a Spot Bilt shoe that had not cleats at all, and it was fine as long as the carpet was dry. If you want a whole game tape of the GOTC against Nebraska in 71, at the end of the game, OUr players are trying to switch shoes to short, metal tipped cleats, because OUr turf shoes didn't work when it was wet. And OUr turf shoes weren't great on Astroturf, especially old Astroturf. But they made us really quick on Tartan Turf. Especially that Pruitt kid.

The first time I ever heard the phrase "turf toe," came from an injury to Roy Bell in 1970, his junior year. People didn't understand how impairing that could be at the time. Roy was a very good college running back, but with his toe injury, he wasn't very effective.

You asked about the impact of Astroturf, meaning all artificial surfaces. One of the biggest impacts have been toe injuries. And when you make the game faster, it increases the force of collisions. And that increases injuries. But playing on a surface where the players can get good footing in bad weather, likely helps reduce injuries at least a little.

I know that OU believes the real grass is better for reducing player injuries, and they spent a bunch of money on a drainage system, so the the real grass could be a reasonable track when it's raining hard, but a softer place to land.

Not sure, but I suspect most players like playing on a good grass surface, a lot more than plastic.
 

runningback43

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I have never played football on the fake stuff, but I have played a few baseball games on the old astroturf. I hated playing baseball on that stuff. It's really hot, and it's like fielding a rubber ball being hit at you on concrete.
 
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One day, a few of us got a bat and ball and went out on the fairly new then football surface at OU to field ground balls on a wet day. That TartanTurf wasn't as bouncy as Astro Turf, but the grounders on the wet carpet seemed to accelerate, gaining speed as it moved along. It was a very strange experience.

I agree with you. I hate watching baseball on plastic, especially the bouncy stuff that turns doubles in the alley into ground rule doubles not allowing the runner to score from first. And that keeps terrific outfielders from trying to make a diving play, because the ball will roll all day if they miss.

The surface should allow great players to be great. It has the opposite effect.
 

CTOkie

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While fake turf has evolved into being more player-friendly in recent years, I would still....after 51 years....like to see synthetic turf made that could replicate natural grass.
After my years of living in Houston and seeing hundreds of Astrodome games from 1965-1986, I knew that artificial turf was a "necessary evil" in that arena, but I did not want it anywhere else, not even at Owen Field. I've never liked the way it looked, the way it impacted the game (baseball or football) or the way it wrecked players' knees (Holieway and Gaddis just to name a couple). Every time I see OU scheduled to play on artificial turf I take a deep breath and cross my fingers.
But with enclosed stadiums completely gone except for the hideous "Super Dome" in New Orleans, I don't see artificial grass being necessary except for financial reasons....unless someone can tell me differently.
 
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Soonersincefitty

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Well, Boise St. would be saying..."We can't grow blue grass".

"That blue grass in Kentucky, just an expression, we ask about it".
:eek:
 

owenfieldreams

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The Wichita Falls ISD was the first to I stall artificial turf in the state of Texas. The crew that installed it had just finished installing it at Kyle Field. I believe the year was 1968 or 1969. The main reason they decided on it was that the then new stadium was where all three W.F. public high schools played as well as all J.V. and junior high games not to mention playoff games with non WF teams competing and a Div.2 national championship game. The upkeep with that much use was much less expensive.
 

virgie76712

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Plaino, Baylor could not buy a high school playoff game prior to 2004. I was on the scene at Floyd Casey Stadium in the summer of 2004. I talked at length with Baylor officials, including play by play John Morris and all told me the installation was for two reasons. Maintenance costs and hope of gaining favors from the UIL. The installation paid off huge in both areas.

Crawford and Troup were scheduled for a playoff game. The UIL said no to a meeting at the midway point in Corsicana. Both fan bases had to travel away from the normal meeting point to North Richland Hills near Fort Worth and played on a synthetic field. A year or two later the newly installed synthetic field in Corsicana became acceptable to the UIL.

UT officials tell me similar stories with their Fieldturf (brand) playing surface. Reliant Stadium now has a removable system used for high school playoff games.

I regularly watch Texas high school playoff high lights on local stations. I look hard for divots.

All high school playing surfaces in the Greater Waco Metropolitan Area are fake, as they are in the San Francisco United School District.

Should anyone here find 2016 Texas high school playoff high lights on natural grass please post.
 

virgie76712

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ISD= independent school district. Wiki tells me high school playoff game were played at a site agreed by both schools till 2006 when the UIL took the reins. Prior to 2006, Baylor et al was aware of the UIL's unwritten rules.
 

OU69BeaufortCounty

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I do not believe the crown on the turf at Owen Field had anything to do with giving an advantage to wishbone backs as noted above. The "knee-high" crown was there when I was a student in the late 60s and was for drainage on the grass field. No wishbone in those days, only Ron Shotts and then Steven Owens running straight ahead.....which probably would have worked better on a flat field. Boomer!
 

CTOkie

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I do not believe the crown on the turf at Owen Field had anything to do with giving an advantage to wishbone backs as noted above. The "knee-high" crown was there when I was a student in the late 60s and was for drainage on the grass field. No wishbone in those days, only Ron Shotts and then Steven Owens running straight ahead.....which probably would have worked better on a flat field. Boomer!
Coaches and players who played on it do not share this opinion.
 

K2C Sooner

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I do not believe the crown on the turf at Owen Field had anything to do with giving an advantage to wishbone backs as noted above. The "knee-high" crown was there when I was a student in the late 60s and was for drainage on the grass field. No wishbone in those days, only Ron Shotts and then Steven Owens running straight ahead.....which probably would have worked better on a flat field. Boomer!

Welcome to the board............
 

owenfieldreams

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UIL.....University Interscholastic League.....the governing body of Tx. H.S. sports. ISD....independent school district. It is absolutely correct that OU installed tartan turf not astroturf. In the rain it was like a backyard slip & slide.
 
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Soonersincefitty

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I was sitting on the first row in the N.W. corner of Owen Field When Joe Don Looney broke off his game winning run vs Syracuse. He literally disappeared out of sight as he neared the S.E. corner goal line.
Same here,
except it was Joe Washington in the 70s.
First row, 5 yard line.
I couldn't see his legs after he crossed that berm down the middle.
I was standing too.
 

CTOkie

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I was sitting on the first row in the N.W. corner of Owen Field When Joe Don Looney broke off his game winning run vs Syracuse. He literally disappeared out of sight as he neared the S.E. corner goal line.
I listened to that 1962 Syracuse game on the radio in New Jersey. I was listening to the Syracuse broadcast. It took the announcers a few minutes to identify Looney as he was not listed on the roster they had available. Looney had been at OU only two weeks before the game and some of the rosters circulated did not include Looney.
That game was one of my all time favorite OU games.
 
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ISD= independent school district. Wiki tells me high school playoff game were played at a site agreed by both schools till 2006 when the UIL took the reins. Prior to 2006, Baylor et al was aware of the UIL's unwritten rules.

For the state title game. UIL may step in in an early round if 50 schools want to play on a common site. I will double check. But for years it has been a negotiation. For site, date, time and parameters on officials.

In hoops, UIL also runs the regionals. But it can be so different based on who wins the prior round.
 

OklaBama

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I do not believe the crown on the turf at Owen Field had anything to do with giving an advantage to wishbone backs as noted above. The "knee-high" crown was there when I was a student in the late 60s and was for drainage on the grass field. No wishbone in those days, only Ron Shotts and then Steven Owens running straight ahead.....which probably would have worked better on a flat field. Boomer!

I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that Troy had a very difficult time throwing the ball against Minnesota in 1985 because he was used to throwing on Owen Field with its crown. Minnesota's field was basically flat, which caused Troy problems. OU won the game but in a disappointing manner as I recall. Maybe some of you remember more details or can straighten me out if I'm off base.
 
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Plaino, Baylor could not buy a high school playoff game prior to 2004. I was on the scene at Floyd Casey Stadium in the summer of 2004. I talked at length with Baylor officials, including play by play John Morris and all told me the installation was for two reasons. Maintenance costs and hope of gaining favors from the UIL. The installation paid off huge in both areas.

Crawford and Troup were scheduled for a playoff game. The UIL said no to a meeting at the midway point in Corsicana. Both fan bases had to travel away from the normal meeting point to North Richland Hills near Fort Worth and played on a synthetic field. A year or two later the newly installed synthetic field in Corsicana became acceptable to the UIL.

UT officials tell me similar stories with their Fieldturf (brand) playing surface. Reliant Stadium now has a removable system used for high school playoff games.

I regularly watch Texas high school playoff high lights on local stations. I look hard for divots.

All high school playing surfaces in the Greater Waco Metropolitan Area are fake, as they are in the San Francisco United School District.

Should anyone here find 2016 Texas high school playoff high lights on natural grass please post.

I have personally covered and attended Plano playoff games at Floyd Casey. More than once against Temple. A 1974 game when Plano beat Bryan and Curtis Dickey (their quarterback I think was Mike Davis who played safety at CU). My junior year, we played the state championship game against San Antonio Randolph AFB.

I've covered small school playoff games at Waco ISD Stadium. One was a TAPPS game, I'll admit.

The problem with Floyd Casey wasn't UIL. It was the stadium size. I suspect there might have been a coach or two who was prejudiced against a Christian university. I can't tell you. But I've sat in on meetings where the negotiating took place. The best one was in 1977 at Texas Stadium, when Plano played Odessa Permian for the first time in the state semifinals. Plano had just come from behind 28-0 to win 29-28 in the last 30 seconds. Permian played early in the day and their coaches flew in to watch Plano vs HP Saturday night. So they had the meeting in one of the lounge areas behind the press box in Texas Stadium. I suspect it was one of the few times one of those meetings were held with a half dozen media types sitting around. They had two or three flips and Plano lost them all. So they had to go to Lubbock and beat Mojo 3-0. Beat Port Neches - Groves in the state title game in Texas Stadium before still the largest single game crowd in state history, 49,954 or something close to that.

The next year, they played in the semi's again, and Plano got to choose because they'd lost the flip the year before. They won 6-3 and then lost to Craig James' Houston Stradford team in the finals in the Astrodome. Lost another flip.Got killed in the finals, something like 30-6.

--

In the Dallas area, there aren't a lot of grass fields left. All the DISD fields are plastic. Pretty sure all FW ISD fields are artificial. The interesting thing about Robin Hood is that the money that went to "property poor" school districts went to build nice new football stadia and especially artificial grass fields.And a big reason they build them that way is because they get more playoff games with fake grass, not because it is mandated by UIL, but because the coaches usually prefer that late in the season when real grass has gotten worn down between the hash marks.

Most schools play in the stadiums of bigger schools in the playoffs, so more can sit comfortably in the stadium. And most bigger schools use artificial turf because they fields are marked better, and can be used for soccer and other sports if they have them, without wearing out the grass.

Allen uses their football stadium now, for graduation. Such events work a whole lot better on plastic than on real grass.
 
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WhyNotaSooner

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I may be wrong, but I seem to remember that Troy had a very difficult time throwing the ball against Minnesota in 1985 because he was used to throwing on Owen Field with its crown. Minnesota's field was basically flat, which caused Troy problems. OU won the game but in a disappointing manner as I recall. Maybe some of you remember more details or can straighten me out if I'm off base.

I recall Texas Stadium having a large crown as well.
 

owenfieldreams

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My recollection of the process going back to when one of my son played on a quarter finals W.F. Coyote team (1986) is that after teams advance the respective coaches would either meet in person or over the phone and given a choice....pick a neutral site or flip for home field. In the Coyotes situation a lot depended on who the opponent was. They were more likely to flip if playing a metroplex school but just as likely to look for a neutral site if the opponent was from Amarillo, Midland-Odessa, or Lubbock. I saw them play 2 consecutive state championship games at Floyd Casey vs San Antonio Lee. They won one and lost one.
 

virgie76712

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What Baylor tells me today: In the early 2000s, Baylor's 49,000 seat Floyd Casey Stadium could not buy a high school playoff game. They site UIL. Circa 2002, Baylor lost it's annual Cheerleaders annual finals competition. Play by play John Morris sites UIL.

I made three visits to Floyd Casey Stadium during Prestige (merged with Fieldturf) installation.

Everything changed during the 2004 season. Floyd Casey and Waco ISD stadium (plastic) became high school playoff meccas. Waco merchants were thrilled.

McGregor fans and Troup fans (an aunt is a retired Troup high school teacher) griped because they had to drive clear to the north side of Fort Worth to play on plastic. Corsicana seemed like the most likely probable site. I live 14 miles from McGregor and I know plenty of Bulldog fans.
 

virgie76712

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Maybe this will help from wire reports.

While denying Reliant Stadium invitations, "There are several factors in the process in deciding on a host city" said Dr. Mark Cousins, Athletic Director at UIL."They include...Second, an ideal playing surface..."

At the time the turndown by UIL for NRG's invite saw the last high school playoff games at NRG Stadium was 2008.

Sept. 15, 2015 NRG announced changing to a permanent artificial playing field for all football games. This fall, the Texans will play on plastic.
 

virgie76712

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Yes, yes. Played on a portable Astroturf surface. After the early Kansas City Chiefs visit, all remaining NRG football games were played on plastic. High school, NFL and college.
 

iasooner1

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K2C cue up the clip of the sad day in the early 90's I believe when the Schooner took 'too sharp' a turn & landed on its side, an axle gouging a big rip in the early fake turf (on rare national tv back in the dark days) and they actually repaired the damage with duct tape. I know Medic or 22 can pinpoint the game, which I think was a loss. Good riddance to that old rug.
 

Section22Sooner

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K2C cue up the clip of the sad day in the early 90's I believe when the Schooner took 'too sharp' a turn & landed on its side, an axle gouging a big rip in the early fake turf (on rare national tv back in the dark days) and they actually repaired the damage with duct tape. I know Medic or 22 can pinpoint the game, which I think was a loss. Good riddance to that old rug.

It was in '93 vs. CU. The young lady who was riding learned a valuable lesson that day. Never ride in a covered wagon in front of 72,000 with no underwear.
 

virgie76712

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Yes, Plaino. The last press box side of Floyd Casey fell Saturday. Lots of people here didn't want to see it go. But with McClain Stadium on line, Floyd gets next to no use.

When small high schools come to Waco, it's usually the WISD Stadium selected. Pretty good high school stadium. I don't know seating capacity.

2 or 3 years ago, Waco Midway used Floyd Casey while Fielturf was laid at Panther Stadium.

A few years ago the city of Waco asked the UIL for all championship games to be played in Waco. Central location was the big selling point. No dice.
 
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I think that when they went to all teams at the same site, which I think is a really bad idea, btw, they decided to use only domes. It maybe wasn't a requirement, just a very strong preference. So that pretty much limits it to Houston, Arlington and San Antonio. And really, the Alamo Dome won't hold everybody when the big schools bring in enough to get into the third deck in Arlington.

I'm not sure Waco has the hotel / motel capacity to handle everybody.
 

virgie76712

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Massive hotel/motel construction in Waco the last few years. But I don't know if there would be enough for the big school games. The restaurant boys think they can handle the masses. But naturally they would say that.