Not to avoid an elephant in the room, but we, the fans get “basched” by Willie for calling Cael to task for not going to National duals and that it is hypocritical that we haven’t participated in previous duals or events (like we had a decision in the matter). I agree with the fact that we do have a vested interest in this event but I disagree that we don’t remember the past. The problem I have, is that I remember the past. I remember how coaches wouldn’t go to these duals or events and now these events are relegated to a marginal “B Teare” shows. What I don’t want is for our duals to become that same low level event and when we see coaches elect to not go, we know that’s what it could be. Cael is the big dog and his decision has a lot of sway on the success or failure of what happens in the wrestling community. Here on the message board, we have always been vocal about our coaches decisions to not go to events and the frustration for the lack of participation in national tournaments or duals and when we see Cael elect not to go, it’s a knee-jerk reaction to be frustrated due to the past.
Baschamania
- Thread starter tom_v31
- Start date
Willie gets over here some, so this could be a fun thread if everyone can keep their stuff together.
#1. He made some good points.
#2. I want to argue some of it.
We weren’t attending collegiate duals and it does appear hypocritical, to his point. I don’t think it’s hard to argue the “best for the sport” angle for John Smith.
Also, we went to the scuffle which used to be a tough tourney as John thought that better prepared us for March and we kept a strong dual schedule. I also believe, he wasn’t going to be involved because of the angle some of the people were leaning (RTC, etc.) and didnt want any part of it.
As a fan I was pretty irritated we didn’t go to the collegiate duals down in Niceville. I was living in Destin a few of those years too so made it even worse. So I am definitely not hypocritical in calling Cael out here when I wasn’t happy with us not attending too.
The difference here is it is the top programs but them. Collegiate duals was not all the top programs consistently. Also, the financial incentive, while small for PsU maybe, is pretty awesome for the kids wrestling.
The difference here is it is the top programs but them. Collegiate duals was not all the top programs consistently. Also, the financial incentive, while small for PsU maybe, is pretty awesome for the kids wrestling.
I don’t like how teams, including OSU when applicable, avoid these large tournaments during the year. I don’t like how NCAA is the only wrestling cares about any more. I would like to see this dual tournament sanctioned by the NCAA (personal preference) and have a dual season and a tournament season ( personal plug). The trajectory of wrestling is not fan friendly as it is.
Willie made some really good points. It doesn't matter that PSU is not participating. The event will be success. On Known PSU fanboy Basch point that "If PSU is not participating, the winner wont be national collegiate dual champ". PSU was invited and they did not accept the invite. The winner will still be national dual champ, whether PSU participates or not. You cant refuse to come and also put down an event for you not attending. Put up or shut up.
Absolutely, 100%, spot on. Couldn't agree more.
I remember going to Lincoln way back when and it was a fantastic event. I am fine with Penn. St. not going.
To what Willie is saying, and I am guilty if only using his words, that a sect OSU and PSU fans have an ignorant, johnny come lately brain.
-Willies talking points-
*some PSU fans are against this event because they aren't going and they're diminishing the pending results. Cael decided against participating...I am calling that a forfeit. Just like in a tourney, a Wrestler can default out. That is similar to what Cael is doing.
*some OSU fans are using this default by Cael as saying that Cael doesn't do what is good for the sport. I am one of those. But, Willie contends that John did the same thing. That is true. I honestly believe that decision was driven by the fact that John considered them blurring the lines of legality and wasn't going to participate in things with them. Is that a fact, maybe, maybe not?
John Smith gave back to the sport in every other way besides attending PSU's collegiate duals.
*Cael doesn't Wrestle a tough schedule. I don't think that is even possible in the Big 10? But, it is no secret that PSU fans are not super entertained until NCAAs and used to complain about the lack of watchworthy events.
IMO, the results that Cael produces can't be argued. It doesn't help the sport, but what could he do to lose that moniker? I don't know?
*this is going to be a great event, regardless if PSU comes or not. Personally, I think it became more compelling the minute we knew they weren't coming. Wrestling fans should just enjoy the event and not worry about the other stuff.
@smalls103 might find the time to jump in here and haggle some?
-Willies talking points-
*some PSU fans are against this event because they aren't going and they're diminishing the pending results. Cael decided against participating...I am calling that a forfeit. Just like in a tourney, a Wrestler can default out. That is similar to what Cael is doing.
*some OSU fans are using this default by Cael as saying that Cael doesn't do what is good for the sport. I am one of those. But, Willie contends that John did the same thing. That is true. I honestly believe that decision was driven by the fact that John considered them blurring the lines of legality and wasn't going to participate in things with them. Is that a fact, maybe, maybe not?
John Smith gave back to the sport in every other way besides attending PSU's collegiate duals.
*Cael doesn't Wrestle a tough schedule. I don't think that is even possible in the Big 10? But, it is no secret that PSU fans are not super entertained until NCAAs and used to complain about the lack of watchworthy events.
IMO, the results that Cael produces can't be argued. It doesn't help the sport, but what could he do to lose that moniker? I don't know?
*this is going to be a great event, regardless if PSU comes or not. Personally, I think it became more compelling the minute we knew they weren't coming. Wrestling fans should just enjoy the event and not worry about the other stuff.
@smalls103 might find the time to jump in here and haggle some?
I don’t care that PSU isn’t coming. Nor do I care that some fans are diminishing it. Great wrestling is great wrestling with or without them. You’re never going to have everyone agree on “the significance” or whatever.
Also, I am guilty of saying that Cael isn’t doing what is best for the sport. Any team not participating in duals, or diminishing their schedule of duals and not going to our iconic tournaments, hurts the product. You can say, and Cael makes a good argument, that the end justifies the means. Well, why don’t we have a season of about 15 matches and go to the NCAAs, and be done with it. For one, I would completely hate that as a fan.
It always starts out the same way. The “event” doesn’t fit into our schedule; I don’t like our seed; I don’t want to wrestle xyz (Willie was complaining about some of these same points);…ends in “there isn’t any good competion, we won’t go.”
It becomes a fan unfriendly sport, unable to appeal to the masses. (But hey, we are ready for NCAAs.)
It always starts out the same way. The “event” doesn’t fit into our schedule; I don’t like our seed; I don’t want to wrestle xyz (Willie was complaining about some of these same points);…ends in “there isn’t any good competion, we won’t go.”
It becomes a fan unfriendly sport, unable to appeal to the masses. (But hey, we are ready for NCAAs.)
Good stuff Chase. Willie and I have went bk and forth on this subject and He's made some VERY valid points. I do think his comment about where has OSU been the last TEN years is a little much. We were all in at the Scuffle all the way thru Jan 1 2020. It was one of the best tournaments to hit at that time in the first half of the season especially years prior to 2020.
The next year (2020-21) nobody was doing much because of Covid.
The next year (2021-22) if I remember clearly John kept the starters out of the Scuffle due to possible Covid concerns and we were also banged up and lost a total of 4 duals that year. Some backups did participate.
The next year (2022-23) we sent the full squad back to the Scuffle and dominated and it became obvious we needed a change.
(2023-24) CKLV
(2024-25) CKLV
Journeyman collegiate duals looked like a great event but many of the best teams didnt wrestle each other. Willie stated they often had issues with coaches not wanting to wrestle certain teams.
I know Chase mentioned John gave back to the sport in other ways and I 100% agree. Also good to mention John and OSU were involved in both Bout at the Ballpark events (2022 & 2023) which created a lot of excitement for college wrestling and Sr level wrestling.
This next year we have depth and true freshmen probably redshirting where we can sit starters in some duals and wrestle guys I still would love to see compete. Such as McComas, Sakamoto, Hughes, Vega, Carter, Robideau, Routledge, Robb, maybe Thompson.
i feel like we're living in this bizarre world where the entire wrestling community (all fans)
are being absolutely contradictory.
everyone is saying: "if everyone (penn st.) isn't there, it doesn't matter."
while also saying: "wrestling needs more things to matter than just NCAA's"
i hate to break it to you, but there are absolutely zero college wrestling events during the year where all the Top 10 are there, and they still matter.
CKLV was awesome. Midlands was awesome. The Scuffle was awesome. The old version of the national duals were awesome.
and not one of them had all the Top 10 teams.
this year's National Duals will feature 16 of the Top 17 teams in the country. And it will be awesome. And the deepest regular season competition in decades.
be happy. David did a great thing for wrestling.
are being absolutely contradictory.
everyone is saying: "if everyone (penn st.) isn't there, it doesn't matter."
while also saying: "wrestling needs more things to matter than just NCAA's"
i hate to break it to you, but there are absolutely zero college wrestling events during the year where all the Top 10 are there, and they still matter.
CKLV was awesome. Midlands was awesome. The Scuffle was awesome. The old version of the national duals were awesome.
and not one of them had all the Top 10 teams.
this year's National Duals will feature 16 of the Top 17 teams in the country. And it will be awesome. And the deepest regular season competition in decades.
be happy. David did a great thing for wrestling.
Yup, you can get a little rough with your delivery, but it should make people pause to think...I know I did. This is spot on too!
I am happy by the way!
I must hang out in the wrong places. 99% of OSU fans I’ve seen talk about the event basically say “Wish PSU was in it but it’s going to be a great event regardless.”
Eh, we’ve said as much here about PSU fans and Cael. But, we all agree it’s going to be a great event regardless.
True Wrestling fans pay attention to almost as much Wrestling as they can get. PSU isn’t in anything we watch until late March…but we still consume every bit we can.
I don’t want to beat a dead horse but hear goes. I just don’t want this tournament to go the way of anonymity, like the scuffle and midlands. Top teams decide they don’t want to go and it’s like a domino effect. I realize, I’m basing my thoughts on fear, and my desires are selfish. do I think Cael is afraid, not even a little.
Willie made a good point I never thought about. We can’t expected Cael and company to drop everything and join our tournament. He May down the road. I’ll chill now
Willie made a good point I never thought about. We can’t expected Cael and company to drop everything and join our tournament. He May down the road. I’ll chill now
If we win NCAA championship over PSU, this wont matter anymore.
Same. Either that or neutral about PSU. "Cael doesn't care about the sport" has been discussed for the past several years, across fanbases (even including some PSU fans). I'm certainly not seeing some new trend of OSU fans suddenly being critical of Cael en masse.
I am certainly not a Penn St. or Cael hater. They have been the best for several years and if I take off my orange shaded glasses they are the favorite this year but OK State. Iowa are closer than before and in a year or two will be nipping at their heels. I wish Penn State would enter the National duals but with or without Penn State it will still be a great tournament. LETS GO POKES!!!
I do agree. So, will we be better this year than last year? That’s the question. I think our potential is better but our experience is less. Iowa looks to be better. PSU… they will be very good, probably better. Younger guys will have developed some. I don’t think they have too many graduating.
@smalls103 posted projected lineups on his Rofkin and there are some great possible matches and there will be some duals that are absolute barnburners!
Makes me miss Wyatt pretty bad. It was so nice to follow the dual up knowing what was going to be had with the final Hammer. Doucet should do well in terms of win % and gives us a decent to good outlook in March, but until proven otherwise, his bonus % is likely to be small.
He also has Hughes penciled in at 41. While I personally want to see what the kid has, I don't know if he is going to do the things required to win a spot. If you listen to Dee's interview after his US Open Championship, he pretty much gave the version of Wrestler expected from the staff. I don't know, but I hope he is, that Hughes has bought in and wants it bad enough to totally change his "normal" training and living?
Other than that, our lineup is pretty strong and matches up pretty well. Lots of tough guys sprinkled throughout the weights...this will be fun!
Makes me miss Wyatt pretty bad. It was so nice to follow the dual up knowing what was going to be had with the final Hammer. Doucet should do well in terms of win % and gives us a decent to good outlook in March, but until proven otherwise, his bonus % is likely to be small.
He also has Hughes penciled in at 41. While I personally want to see what the kid has, I don't know if he is going to do the things required to win a spot. If you listen to Dee's interview after his US Open Championship, he pretty much gave the version of Wrestler expected from the staff. I don't know, but I hope he is, that Hughes has bought in and wants it bad enough to totally change his "normal" training and living?
Other than that, our lineup is pretty strong and matches up pretty well. Lots of tough guys sprinkled throughout the weights...this will be fun!
Hughes has a lot to worry about - and that staff is not going to cater to him. I don't see him in the lineup if everyone is healthy. Tagen is viewed as the 141, with the staff believing that Figs and Swiderski can win titles at 133 and 149.
I LOVE Hughes, but yeah, he's got some growing up to do and he basically now has to pray Tagen can't hold 141 or Figs get hurt at 133.
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And vice-versa. Most PSU fans say it’s an awesome event, wish PSU was going, understand why Cael isn’t sending them, and trust Cael.
You’re moving towards where PSU is at. A significant part of the PSU lineup will be wrestling freestyle events almost up until the folkstyke season starts. Cael did not plan this cycle for early season hard folkstyke matches right after the freestyle season concludes. Maybe he’ll adjust for it next year. Maybe he won’t. Maybe OkSt will soon find it too can’t can’t wrestle an early season hard folkstyle event when so much of its lineup is wrestling freestyle up almost to the start of the college season.
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