I have been a Duke fan since 85-86. The one thing that drives me crazy and totally baffles me is the inability/unwillingness to box out. I just don't get it. Several times after a UNC offensive rebound and put back I rewound the game and just focused on the offensive rebounder. Every time, the Duke player turned his back on his guy and just star gazed at the shot. The UNC guy just went straight to the rim and got an uncontested rebound. On Pinson's put back, he started at the 3 point line. Duke played 29 seconds of great defense, leading to a missed shot with 1 second left on the shot clock. Matt Jones, after working hard and playing good defense on Pinson, making him give up the ball, just turns his back on him and allows him a free route to the basket. I don't get the consistent lack of effort in this one specific area and I don't get the coaches not fixing this.
Boxing OUt
- Thread starter df64
- Start date
That one hurt- we had really played good D and largely did all game in the halfcourt...Good point, especially as relates to Matt as he didnt snare a single carom yesterday...
To me, Matt is the perfect example of why it is so baffling. Matt is a Junior with a National Title. No excuse for lack of experience, caught up in the moment, etc. He is an experienced and savvy player who is not blessed with a ton of athleticism. His bread and butter is his hard work and discipline. He is the exact kind of player who you would think would/should always box out. I could almost understand if you are always the most athletic guy on the court and your game is more about style/flash than substance.
I agree.. Seeing this team stand around when the ball goes in the air instead of putting a body on someone drives me insane! It's simple and you just have to put forth a little effort. They need to play with the mindset that every shot put up (on either end) is going to be a miss. I just can't find an excuse for getting out-rebounded 58-25...that's just ridiculous.
Pinson's offensive board was backbreaking, as it seemed to really deflate us.
With that said, remember how undermanned this team is down low without Amile. We have 1 true Center and we play a young PF who is more comfortable out on the perimeter. Sure, Chase can give 3 minutes here and there, but we just don;t have the bodies.
One thing I noticed during the UNC game, is how much effort this team uses just to score the ball. We don't have the luxury of dumping it down to a Okafor and getting an easy bucket. Most of our possessions require alot of passing, spacing, and movement in order to get a good shot.
I am not complaining about the offense. We have an ELITE offense, however, since we are not deep, all of the effort we exert on offense seems to really hurt us on the defense and rebounding front.
With that said, remember how undermanned this team is down low without Amile. We have 1 true Center and we play a young PF who is more comfortable out on the perimeter. Sure, Chase can give 3 minutes here and there, but we just don;t have the bodies.
One thing I noticed during the UNC game, is how much effort this team uses just to score the ball. We don't have the luxury of dumping it down to a Okafor and getting an easy bucket. Most of our possessions require alot of passing, spacing, and movement in order to get a good shot.
I am not complaining about the offense. We have an ELITE offense, however, since we are not deep, all of the effort we exert on offense seems to really hurt us on the defense and rebounding front.
jwill I agree, but it is so much less work if you box out right away, especially on the perimeter. Guys like Johnson and Jackson are not overpowering. Put a body on them early and often and I bet they go away. And, this is a problem I have noticed consistently for 20 years.
We have to do better, but one reason we've traditionally struggled to box out is b/c we overplay passing lanes and challenge every shot. UNC has traditionally been way better w/ rebounding, but think about all the 3s they give up.
It seems like allowing offensive rebounds has been Duke's fatal flaw for a LONG time. (Exceptions: 2010 coming to mind)
I think depth is part of the reason for this. K doesn't like to go more than 7-8 guys (2-3 bigs max). Also, alot of the bigs we recruit are SKILLED (never had to fight that hard in High School to beat people.)
Derrick Williams just got another tip-slam as I wrote this................jk
I think depth is part of the reason for this. K doesn't like to go more than 7-8 guys (2-3 bigs max). Also, alot of the bigs we recruit are SKILLED (never had to fight that hard in High School to beat people.)
Derrick Williams just got another tip-slam as I wrote this................jk
What Dat said. If you have watched Duke over the years our perimeter plan of overplaying the passing lanes is a core principle of Coach K.
I would hardly call it a fatal flaw. K has some core principals at the defensive end of the court that puts us at a disadvantage on rebounds with certain team makeups. It has worked a hell of a lot more than it has not, and some years have been worse than others. Fatal flaw is a gross overstatement.
And this principle works when you have an elite team like last year. But with a bunch of mediocre defenders, it seems like we are getting burned much more than getting a turnover.
We weren't even a decent defensive team last year --- let alone good --- until sometime in February. In January our team couldn't guard their own shadow. Thankfully K didn't get stuck into just his basic principles or we don't cut down the nets.
Agreed. However last years team had the recipe to be great on defense, which we eventually were.
Justise was a world-class athlete and could check anyone 2-4.
Amile figured things out defensively last year too as he became our best interior defender.
Matt, Quinn, and sometimes Tyus weren't too shabby either.
This years crew doesn't have the same recipe.
A lot of years haven't had the same recipe. The Greg Paulus years were not a great era in Duke defense. Defense may be one of K's least flexible areas, but there have been adjustments there, as well.
I'm not claiming the overplaying is the sole reason we rebound poorly. We're young, thin, and thin this year since we lost Amile.
I'm not claiming the overplaying is the sole reason we rebound poorly. We're young, thin, and thin this year since we lost Amile.
Zone is known for being hard to rebound out of and we showed UNC that for a while...but I completely agree that this has been something Duke has struggled with forever. Even our good rebounders of the past didn't box out much. Z took up a ton of space and that alone helped his numbers once he started being aggressive. Mason just out jumped people.
The guards are the key...granted Allen got called for undercutting trying to box out.
Defensive rebounding is a mindset but it can also slow down pace if the whole team is invested. Maybe the staff wants to allow the other guards to get out of position so we get open 3s? Not sure...drives me crazy though.
The guards are the key...granted Allen got called for undercutting trying to box out.
Defensive rebounding is a mindset but it can also slow down pace if the whole team is invested. Maybe the staff wants to allow the other guards to get out of position so we get open 3s? Not sure...drives me crazy though.
The Greg Paulus years drove me crazy defensively because we always did have AMAZING athletes playing the wing. Demarcus Nelson, Sean Dockery, Gerald Henderson, Elliott Williams come to mind immediately.
Seemed like opposing teams always attacked Paulus and our big guys. As I would have done the same..
K's plan of attack on D has always been disrupting the other team's offense and taking away their number 1 option. I love that! It does tend to lead to some poor rebounding opportunities, so the expectation shouldn't be for duke to out rebound elite teams consistently. Instead it should be offset with the turnovers duke creates. Duke has to win the turnover margin, and this year they need to do it by a significant number.
My negative towards K would be his inability to get his teams to fight for rebounds, the desire to box out, etc. The only thing I can think of is the large minutes and the intense in your face D that K has his players play leads to fatigue with rebounding. You can hide fatigue on offense and sometimes on defense when the ball isn't on your side, or in a zone, but when it's time to rebound, everyone must fight for it at the same time. I think fatigue could set in with the effort there.
I think this year's duke team has done a really solid job not turning the ball over, but we aren't creating live ball turnovers to off set the rebounding. Live ball turnovers lead to layups and fast break wide open 3's. There's athleticism on this team, but not quickness. I would say Thornton is the only quick player for their position.
My negative towards K would be his inability to get his teams to fight for rebounds, the desire to box out, etc. The only thing I can think of is the large minutes and the intense in your face D that K has his players play leads to fatigue with rebounding. You can hide fatigue on offense and sometimes on defense when the ball isn't on your side, or in a zone, but when it's time to rebound, everyone must fight for it at the same time. I think fatigue could set in with the effort there.
I think this year's duke team has done a really solid job not turning the ball over, but we aren't creating live ball turnovers to off set the rebounding. Live ball turnovers lead to layups and fast break wide open 3's. There's athleticism on this team, but not quickness. I would say Thornton is the only quick player for their position.
Reasons why I hate playing zone (though I understood it for the UNC game, it was our only chance)
1. No steals out near mid court that lead to easy buckets. And this team really needs to get some easy buckets.
2. Rebounding
3. Game slows down, our offense needs to get as many possessions as possible since we are a top5 KenPom offense.
1. No steals out near mid court that lead to easy buckets. And this team really needs to get some easy buckets.
2. Rebounding
3. Game slows down, our offense needs to get as many possessions as possible since we are a top5 KenPom offense.
I can live with the game slowing down. Just because we're a top five offense doesn't mean we should get more possessions. We're a top five offense because we're efficient on that end of the court. UVA is a top 10 offense because of efficiency, not because they're trying to get as many possessions as possible.