Just wanna give a quick shoutout to assistbyhawkins who called everyone who doubted the initial convictions morons and completely dismissed the idea of Dassey/Avery's innocence. Nailed it, dude.
Brendan Dassey Conviction Overturned by a Federal Judge
- Thread starter CatsnRoses
- Start date
I felt bad for the kid, his first lawyer screwed him.
I think Avery pressured him into the crime.
I still think he was involved.
I think his brother and step dad should've been looked into. Avery had to much to gain.
I think it's the humane thing to do. The kid was abused by the police during interrogation and by his lawyer.
Agree. He was mishandled by the police and prolly should have been released solely bc of this. However, I have thought from the get go Avery and the kid were guilty as could be.
Just because I think it doesn't make it true. But could Never understand the fuss about the whole deal. Especially with regard to Avery. Some elaborate multi layered coverup and frame job bc he was suing the Dept. Never bought it.
The kid, as evidenced by the confession video, could be talked into anything quite easily. Plug in Avery who he maybe looked up to taking advantage and it makes sense to me.
JMHO. I understand how others strongly disagree.
All I know is that Avery and Brendon should start they're own cleaning service.
Not a drop of the victim's blood in the room they tortured her in or the garage where they cut her up.
"If yo house be massey, call Avery 'n Dassey!"
Not a drop of the victim's blood in the room they tortured her in or the garage where they cut her up.
"If yo house be massey, call Avery 'n Dassey!"
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Good take imo.
I don't think the police were all that hard on him to be honest. However, whether it was the law or not ,at the minimum his parents should've been in that room with him.
His first lawyer needs to be arrested and disbarred.
I'm glad that UK football already has a new offensive coordinator; he's the kind of genius that Stoops wouldn't have been able to pass up.
^^^^It's been awhile since I watched it. What am I mistaking or has been shown untrue? Earnest question.
http://www.dailywire.com/news/2363/dont-believe-press-steven-avery-guilty-murder-michael-qazvini
I have not watched all of the doc episodes on Netflix. Def appeared at least in the few opening episodes to be pretty slanted toward Avery. But the article linked above lists facts that cannot be refuted.
People can always come back in hindsight and say why didn't they find "x" or why didn't "y" happen. The honest answer IMO regarding the blood evidence is that they cleaned up. Prolly burnt the sheets and disposed of anything even remotely thought to have spatter or blood evidence. Neither of these guys were geniuses by any stretch but they may have even used precautionary measures to minimize blood cleanup, such as plastic drop cloths, sheets Etc.
Regardless of how much blood was found, if you can look at the shear amount of pretty damning evidence and proclaim every bit of it to be planted by the police bc of a lawsuit then there is no middle ground to be found. Generally multi layered conspiracies dont exist. They don't exist bc it is very hard to keep everyone involved quiet and on the same page. This would be a massive conspiracy and cover up on such a large scale it would be hard to imagine.
I have not watched all of the doc episodes on Netflix. Def appeared at least in the few opening episodes to be pretty slanted toward Avery. But the article linked above lists facts that cannot be refuted.
People can always come back in hindsight and say why didn't they find "x" or why didn't "y" happen. The honest answer IMO regarding the blood evidence is that they cleaned up. Prolly burnt the sheets and disposed of anything even remotely thought to have spatter or blood evidence. Neither of these guys were geniuses by any stretch but they may have even used precautionary measures to minimize blood cleanup, such as plastic drop cloths, sheets Etc.
Regardless of how much blood was found, if you can look at the shear amount of pretty damning evidence and proclaim every bit of it to be planted by the police bc of a lawsuit then there is no middle ground to be found. Generally multi layered conspiracies dont exist. They don't exist bc it is very hard to keep everyone involved quiet and on the same page. This would be a massive conspiracy and cover up on such a large scale it would be hard to imagine.
I'm on episode 8 of the documentary, you telling me the last damn 7 hours of my life I've spent watching this was all ********? I mean what is going on then? In the documentary they've painted a pretty damn convincing argument that he and Dassey are CLEARLY innocent. I mean it almost seems cut and dry that they were framed. Why the hell would they do that? Also what is his motive? That's the part that made no sense to me, like why would he kill her? Just seemed completely random, but at the same time the documentary hasn't given a clear indication of who would kill her if it wasn't Avery.
And there is no way they completely cleaned up that bedroom where apparently a horrific torture and mutilation session happened. The guy could barely form a complete sentence and his nephew was literally forrest gump level intelligence. Hell a forensic crime lab and team of experts would have a hard time scrubbing a room like that. There is no way they completely didn't have any traces of blood in a bedroom where they tortured her and had her bleed out for hours but then he left a giant car key in the middle of the damn living room. Makes no common sense. So that part (that they tortured and cut her up in the bedroom) didn't seem to be true at all.
And there is no way they completely cleaned up that bedroom where apparently a horrific torture and mutilation session happened. The guy could barely form a complete sentence and his nephew was literally forrest gump level intelligence. Hell a forensic crime lab and team of experts would have a hard time scrubbing a room like that. There is no way they completely didn't have any traces of blood in a bedroom where they tortured her and had her bleed out for hours but then he left a giant car key in the middle of the damn living room. Makes no common sense. So that part (that they tortured and cut her up in the bedroom) didn't seem to be true at all.
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I'm not saying Avery is innocent. But especially the things they convicted Dassey on just couldn't be true. If they tortured and slit her throat in that bedroom there would be blood evidence. There is no way they could clean it all up (or think they cleaned it up only to be detected by another method).
If Avery is stupid enough to leave a key to her vehicle where it can easily be found, then he isn't smart enough to not leave evidence of a murder in his trailer (he's not Dexter). It's one of the other (now maybe they killed her somewhere else, but it is hard to imagine those things happening in the bedroom).
I understand and appreciate what you are saying. As I mentioned in a previous post the cops clearly took advantage of Dassey and his low IQ in that interview. I don't place any strength on their guilt or innocence based on that interview.
However, there is a ton of info, some of it cited in that article I posted, that was not included in the documentary that clearly shows both intent and IMO clear evidence of guilt.
Without getting into all of it. Avery, without question, called Theresa's cell phone multiple times that day asking for her to personally come out there. The first 2 times he dialed it using *67 to mask his number. The last time he just dialed it straight. All 3 times he called specifically requesting her to come out he lied about who he was giving the name of his sister or brother (can't remember which). This was done bc on Theresa had said she would not come out there if Avery was there bc he had "creeped" her out by answering the door in only a bath towel on a previous visit and making creepy comments to her. Just that one thing to me screams intent.
Taken with all of the other evidence I just think it's pretty clear. I am gonna have a hard time believing the cops engaged in a multi person and multi layered frame up to have the decedent's vehicle with averys blood & DNA on it in seven different places, her burned up bones in his fire pit, a bullet In his garage that matched both Hallbachs dna and averys gun, handcuffs and leg irons found at averys home, previous disturbing behavior including torturing small animals and sexually harassing and abusing women and girls all add up to a pretty compelling case to me. I don't believe that in this country you can pull off a conspiracy on that
Many levels for an extended period of time. You are talking about dozens of officers, forensics people, their families, etc without one peep.
The bones and her tooth found in he fire pit were intertwined with the smell webbing of the tires he put on top of her body to burn faster. Her phone and all of the contents of her purse were found in a burn barrel not 20 feet from averys home. Additionally found in the burn barrel were the tools he used to chop up her bones while the body burned and rivets from the jeans she was wearing.
There's more stuff I don't feel like trying to remember but I will list one more thing. The bullet that was forensically matched to averys rifle that hung over his bed could not have been planted. The cops would have to take the rifle from the home, fire it at their lab, keep the bullet preserved, then take the gun back and plant the bullet. Sounds pretty far fetched to me. The article I linked points this out.
Just overwhelming to me. I tend to think that in most cases the simplest explanation is the correct one. Did Avery do it and cleaned up in some ways but not in others expecting to get away with it? Or did the cops engage in a vast conspiracy involving as many as 25 or more people to just save themselves face and some money? The money was not coming out of their pocket. Taxpayers would be footing the bill. The embarrassment of jailing the wrong man for the rape initially was already done. What would they even frame him for?
Sorry for the book. Wanted to point out what I understand the inconsistencies that are not included in the documentary. The producers made a compelling documentary and make some solid points. They have a limited time frame but seem to have left out or severely downplayed some major aspects of this case. Dassey may well be innocent. Not sure what to think about there. At worst he was badly manipulated by Avery.
The point for me, and I think many others, is that neither of them got a fair trial. I think 1 of them did it, but it's pretty clear that Dassey deserves a new trial based upon his horrible attorneys.
The documentary should be a case study in propaganda. How they left out facts that made Avery look guilty (he is blocking his number multiple times trying to call her right before she shows up so he is obviously watching for her). All the talk of the blood evidence but Avery's non-blood DNA is on the latch of the hood of her car.
It shows how well crafted documentaries/propaganda can lead malleable minds wherever the filmmakers want to take them. Avery is guilty. Read all the evidence. Dude killed her.
It shows how well crafted documentaries/propaganda can lead malleable minds wherever the filmmakers want to take them. Avery is guilty. Read all the evidence. Dude killed her.
Phone calls and his sweat on her car is the smoking gun evidence you're talking about?
Seems reasonable to think a lot of the evidence was planted. Don't assume that people that don't think he did it or deserves a new trial only gain their opinions based upon the documentary. It seems pretty clear that Avery will be free or have another trial before long.
Seems reasonable to think a lot of the evidence was planted. Don't assume that people that don't think he did it or deserves a new trial only gain their opinions based upon the documentary. It seems pretty clear that Avery will be free or have another trial before long.
Not so sure about that. I think it possible a new trial may happen, but my understanding is that it is not as sure of a thing as many think.
I, for one, hope he does and all of the evidence on both sides can be presented and a determination with all of the facts can be made by his peers.
And just to be clear as to my position, I do not assume that people are only going by the documentary. However, all of the evidence mentioned up to this point in the thread comes directly quoted from it. So, whether that is where you are making your determination or not, at least for the majority of the people online the documentary is their sole source of info. And that documentary was inherently flawed in how it presented evidence. Whether bias from the producers was part of it, or maybe just the sensationalism of making a more compelling drama out of it, either way that is the predominant narrative that gets portrayed.
Much the same way the JFK assassination gets a ton of completely made up, false info spewed from a biased Oliver Stone fictional movie account, this case and the documentary outlining it has become part of the narrative. Whether the producers intended it that way or not. And while I can't be sure, they seem to be very happy with the popularity of their documentary.
I agree with this 100%. Dassey is a mystery for me. I go back and forth as to what his role was. But, no matter his role, he was taken advantage of in that interview and without having question in my mind very Much deserves a new trial.
I would slightly disagree on Avery receiving a fair trial. That is not as clear to me. But, I did not follow the Avery trial very closely and am just going on what I have read on various sources.
Honestly, I would like them both to get new trials and lay all of the evidence out there on both sides. Then let the juries decide once and for all.
Just read the first 2 paragraphs. And im on the fence still. (Reasonable doubt)?
You say he called ger cell phone 3 times. Then you say he specifically requested her.
So is the 2nd part made up? If he called her cell phone he wouldnt have talked to anyone else to specifically request theresa. He just would have talked to her.
Chances are, he probably did it. But, just for the sheer douche baggery of ken kratz and some of the other state employees makes a frame job not too hard to fathom. Those were some of the most unlikable people ive ever seen. And not just because of how the documentary was.. because of their own actions/words.
Was also a pretty horrid investigation.
The conspiracy theories aren't in place to say Avery is innocent. They are there because the police are corrupt.
He is guilty and the planting of evidence......the key and a few other small things were just to seal the deal on who they knew did it. It wasn't framing an innocent man, but instead making sure there were no loopholes since Avery had slipped through before.
He is guilty and the planting of evidence......the key and a few other small things were just to seal the deal on who they knew did it. It wasn't framing an innocent man, but instead making sure there were no loopholes since Avery had slipped through before.
Fair enough. Was not clearly outlined by me. For the sake of time and less paragraphs, I merged some things. However, the following paragraphs from the article I originally cited I think explain it very clearly. And, FTR, I don't disagree about the Unlikability of the cops involved. Just based on that Unlikability, many people tend to Believe the frame up I think.
Avery targeted Teresa. On Oct 31 (8:12 am) he called AutoTrader magazine and asked them to send “that same girl who was here last time.” On Oct 10, Teresa had been to the Avery property when Steve answered the door just wearing a towel. She said she would not go back because she was scared of him (obviously). Avery used a fake name and fake # (his sister’s) giving those to the AutoTrader receptionist, to trick Teresa into coming.
Phone records show 3 calls from Avery to Teresa’s cell phone on Oct 31. One at 2:24, and one at 2:35–both calls Avery uses the *67 feature so Teresa doesn’t know it him…both placed before she arrives. Then one last call at4:35 pm, without the *67 feature. Avery first believes he can simply say she never showed up (his original defense), so tries to establish the alibi call after she’s already been there, hence the 4:35 call. She will never answer of course, so he doesn’t need the *67 feature for that last call.
Hope this more clearly outlines the phone calls than I did originally. This is a huge part of my thoughts on his guilt. This shows clear intent. Not enough by itself, but the preponderance of the other evidence I find hard to believe him innocent.
A lot of people are drama queens in general and want to believe in some vast conspiracy. As makes the most sense, Avery murdered her. I'm not sure about Dassey- I couldn't have convicted him.
Ok that certainly clears my wondering up. Like I said chances are he did it.
I think its equally likely that there were shady tactics regarding the police investigation. More than likely, evidence was probably planted, jmo. But instead of being done to frame him, it was probably done to ensure conviction.
In my opinion, Avery didn't get a fair trial because of the press conference the prosecutor did, which tainted the jury. Now that the confession it was based on has been thrown out, it's even worse. The fact that the prosecutor mentioned all of that in the press conference upon charging them, and then didn't use that theory in the trial is malpractice in my opinion and Avery deserves a new trial as well.
I agree that the cops did themselves no favors in this entire investigation and are to blame for much of the trouble with this case. It would not surprise me to learn that there were items planted or statements changed to further prove averys guilt.
The shame of the whole deal IMO is that there was a ton of evidence that I don't believe was, or could have been, planted. If they did try to make him look more guilty by any means, it was not needed whatsoever. Just muddied the waters instead of clearing them.
I agree and cannot fathom why the hell Kratz held the press conferences at all, much less to do so while making some outlandish and very prejudicial claims. He could have had a PC saying they had been arrested and no further comments would be made by his office until completion of the trial.
I think there was more than sufficient evidence for the police and the prosecutors to certainly put Avery away for life. Why they all seemed to shut off their brains and do such crazy **** is beyond my comprehension. I guess that is what seems so crazy and fascinating to a lot of the people who are following the case from the outside. Seems surreal in many ways.
This involved a lot more than "money." Those "cops" were being deposed and stood to have their careers taken away and lives destroyed. Funny how the local cops were the only ones to ever "find" any physical evidence.
And no... They didn't have to plant a ballistically tested bullet on the property. All they had to do was find a spent slug (really difficult to find spent bullets on the property of a bunch of rednecks) and plant the DNA.
So regardless of the truth, you are jumping to conclusions with your theories and making the necessary steps to frame him more complex than they were.
So basically all you have, is that he specifically requested Hallbach. Smoking gun.
He slipped thru before? He was jailed for decades for a crime it was almost certain he didn't commit and for which a whole department was likely going to be slammed for planting evidence and coercing false testimony. And you call it "slipping thru before"?
This case is an interesting study on how people can make up their minds early on, before evidence is even disclosed or having never heard the full evidence. I'm not going to say I'm exempt from this, either. But 99% of the people I have come across that have even slightly familiarized themselves with this case, fall into this category and 99.8% of those people are either too dumb or stubborn to realize or admit it.
Also, this isn't to say Avery didn't do it. It's to say the law was upheld in court therefore a guilty man by way of law could be "innocent".
This isn't a conspiracy theory proven right either.
I don't think, to me, that this necessarily shows that he targeted her. If we look at this in a neutral light we might see that Avery called and asked for the same girl simply because she was nice and he enjoyed working with her. I may very well always call and ask for the same person at a certain business because I have a good working relationship with them, but that doesn't mean I am targeting them. Yes, it becomes more suspicious when there is a murder, but it shows some bias to call it targeting.
The calls and the timeline with that have always seemed strange to me. If she shows up at roughly 2:40 to photograph this vehicle then why is she still there, and observed by at least one neutral party, photographing the advertisement vehicle at roughly 3:30, almost an hour later. The school bus driver testifying that they knew it was that time because they always arrived at the Avery property between 3:30 and 3:40.
Some interesting things are how did he get her cell phone? Avery called Auto Trader early that morning to have her come to the house. At what point is he given her phone number to be able to call her from his own phone? She never contracts Avery directly. So, that is a question I have before you ever get to the *67 issue. Now, you can again take these *67 things and at least mean it is more compelling evidence against him, but it is a big leap to simply use this and jump to murder.
The most damning stuff is his DNA on or in the vehicle. That is much harder to explain away. Maybe not impossible, but hard.
Some things I find strange are that Avery is able to clean up 99 percent of the blood evidence in the home and garage, but he decides to leave the car on his own property and cleans up no blood at all in that car. I mean, it seems like if you're meticulous enough to get rid of all trace evidence of blood at two possible murder scenes that you'd smarten up and get rid of the vehicle, especially when you have the means easily do so.
Really, a lot of this case doesn't make a whole lot of sense. That, I think, is what add to to the intrigue of it. While we have someone convicted, we still have a lot of questions and mystery.
Ya forgot about the car. Just sitting there in plane view with some sticks and other stupid **** on it.....when there is a car crusher that Avery uses regularly 100 yards away.