...according to Matt Jones. Ummm, our best years were non-Air Raid, pro-style offenses. Anyone else feel like we HAVE to have an air raid offense to win? One thing Air Raid does do is pigeon hole the offensive coordinators you can hire, as seen with the Dawson hire.
Can't Win in the SEC without Air Raid Offense
- Thread starter CatDaddy4daWin
- Start date
I haven't heard today's show but I would have to hear his exact quote. Clearly you can win with or without the Air Raid. I have even had this arguement with some of the Anti-Air Raid people on this board. Style of offense is just a style nothing more. You can win in the SEC with the Air Raid. You can win in the NFL with it. Hell the Patriots have won multiple Super Bowls with an offense that is Air Raid like. The style of offense just needs to fit your personnel nothing more.
We can win with Gran's offense. What we can not win with is what we had which is not being totally committed to the offense you are running. That's what Bill Curry did for 8 years.
We can win with Gran's offense. What we can not win with is what we had which is not being totally committed to the offense you are running. That's what Bill Curry did for 8 years.
Of course Jones drew on his wealth of football knowledge to come to this conclusion.
I think you have to have a pretty open playbook at UK if your going to win. Air Raid, Pro Style. Has to be a mix imo. I think we have to have more horses to run strictly a pro style. Im good with either but you have to have the bodies to do it.
Keep landing players like Young and Jackson and you damn right we can.
I think he said he doesn't think we can win with a "pro-style" "run heavy offense...I am nor sure why he thinks Gran is run heavy and I don't think he understands what Grans "pro-style" looks like.
Shotgun - read option - wildcat QB - 2 TEs - 4/5 wide...Gran said it himself, his offense is multiple. Jones just doesn't understand football too well, but he leads his listeners to believing the wrong things.
Shotgun - read option - wildcat QB - 2 TEs - 4/5 wide...Gran said it himself, his offense is multiple. Jones just doesn't understand football too well, but he leads his listeners to believing the wrong things.
There are a number of offenses that can win in the SEC or in any conference. Look at the SEC now. Alabama, A&M and Miss.St have each had a different style of offense, yet each has been able to produce winning seasons in recent years. Even Missou has won a couple east titles. It's not necessarily the style. It fitting a style to the personnel you actually have (or recruiting to the style you want to run), and then coaching and execution. No matter what style you have you must have high-caliber athletes to make it work...and good coaching along with a bit of flexibility to adjust to opponents and your own players strengths/weaknesses.
He has said multiple times that he feels like UK has to have a gimmicky offense to win here because we can't beat teams straight up due to talent. He still kinda lives in the old way of UK fan thinking. Stoops has already proven that he can recruit to Kentucky, something Jones and many others believed was impossible.
It just really grinds my gears to hear this kind of talk. UK can win running the ball, because running the ball successfully leads to a greater TOP, a more rested defense, and wears down the opponents defense. Now obviously we need balance but having a 52/48 pass to run ratio can be successful whereas I don't believe a 70/30 ratio would be successful in the long run.
It just really grinds my gears to hear this kind of talk. UK can win running the ball, because running the ball successfully leads to a greater TOP, a more rested defense, and wears down the opponents defense. Now obviously we need balance but having a 52/48 pass to run ratio can be successful whereas I don't believe a 70/30 ratio would be successful in the long run.
And way down the line from probation, as far as I am concerned. Bama's probation when we had ours was an opportunity for early playing time for great players, at UK it was a killer for years, and it was made MUCH worse by the near zero support for football for over a decade.
I didn't see an actual quote, but this sounds like the typical "offense-only-matters" perspective we've seen since the 90's. You need a "productive" offense with seasoned/developed players IN ADDITION TO an effective hard-hitting defense AND good special teams. It is an all or nothing formula for winning FB.
The "mumme-lens" used by so many without concern for D & ST serves only to produce high-scoring losses. For those concerned primarily with being "entertained" at FB games....a "basketball on grass" revival might be enough.
Not me.....I'm a FB fan.
GBB!
The "mumme-lens" used by so many without concern for D & ST serves only to produce high-scoring losses. For those concerned primarily with being "entertained" at FB games....a "basketball on grass" revival might be enough.
Not me.....I'm a FB fan.
GBB!
I am one who has advocated for an uptempo style , but I don't give a damn what type it is as long as we are averaging 30+ ppg...I want something like Baylor or TCU runs but just want something that is polar opposite to what MS seems to want to run his first three years here...
Regardless of what type of offense any team runs, you have to have playmakers. SEC defenses are usually filled with great athletes who disrupt, lockdown, pursue, and pressure offenses. Since nearly every offensive play is designed to score, it is imperative that the offense possess players who can make plays when the execution is less that perfect. Great players make most almost any offensive scheme work well.
The Air Raid offense is/was a great offense to run, however at the end of the day it was a gimmick. While the past 40 years of our history has shown otherwise, Kentucky doesn't need a gimmick to win in the SEC. It's that type of mentality that has kept Kentucky down for so long.
The recipe for success at Kentucky isn't a secret. In fact, I think it's so simple most of our 'coaches' over those 4 decades have simply overthought it or just weren't able to do it. In that that case, shame on Kentucky for even putting them in that position to begin with.
In order to be successful anywhere, a coach must be able to recruit the best athletes, teach fundamental football while executing it to near perfection and have facilities that make kids want to come play there. In this day and age, I also think conference affiliation helps. These things can be done, even at a place like Kentucky.
Kentucky is just like anywhere else, unfortunately it's just not hired the right people to help move it forward in the right way. Those decisions have made it much harder to do here, but it most definitely is not an impossible task.
The recipe for success at Kentucky isn't a secret. In fact, I think it's so simple most of our 'coaches' over those 4 decades have simply overthought it or just weren't able to do it. In that that case, shame on Kentucky for even putting them in that position to begin with.
In order to be successful anywhere, a coach must be able to recruit the best athletes, teach fundamental football while executing it to near perfection and have facilities that make kids want to come play there. In this day and age, I also think conference affiliation helps. These things can be done, even at a place like Kentucky.
Kentucky is just like anywhere else, unfortunately it's just not hired the right people to help move it forward in the right way. Those decisions have made it much harder to do here, but it most definitely is not an impossible task.
FWIW, TCU runs the Air Raid. Direct Mumme/Leach bloodlines there.
As far as gimmicks go, I will say it's held up pretty well. Middling success in the SEC for sure, but Air Raid disciples (Oklahoma, TCU, Baylor ...) are still at the forefront of college football offense in 2016.
And as someone mentioned above, the New England Patriots have adopted large parts of the Mumme offense.
As far as gimmicks go, I will say it's held up pretty well. Middling success in the SEC for sure, but Air Raid disciples (Oklahoma, TCU, Baylor ...) are still at the forefront of college football offense in 2016.
And as someone mentioned above, the New England Patriots have adopted large parts of the Mumme offense.
I discussed this with some family members the other day.
True Air Raid is a dead concept in major football. It's fine when you can throw a ton and suffer no consequence because of the opposing backs getting tired. At an lower tier school, the backs tire and the reserves come in. Terrifying.
Concepts are still retained in modern spread offenses, though.
In the SEC, the starting backs go down and oh darn, they're only using their 4* players now to cover our guys.
Just some notes I got from various members of the family.
True Air Raid is a dead concept in major football. It's fine when you can throw a ton and suffer no consequence because of the opposing backs getting tired. At an lower tier school, the backs tire and the reserves come in. Terrifying.
Concepts are still retained in modern spread offenses, though.
In the SEC, the starting backs go down and oh darn, they're only using their 4* players now to cover our guys.
Just some notes I got from various members of the family.
Exactly. And Brooks proved you could win here using a bit different approach, but still with a traditional offense.
Two things have to happen to win in the SEC. Have to be able to run the ball and have to be able to stop the run. By running I'm not talking about the old Oklahoma-Wishbone-run-it-80-times-a-game thingy. I'm talking about a solid running game that produces a minimum, a minimum, of 175 ypg.
Consequently, also have to be able to stop the other guy's running game, something along the lines of limiting the opponent to 125 ypg or less. It's been this way for decades and won't change anytime soon.
As for Jones, he needs to worry about who guards Ben Simmons and can Calipari's guards score enough to beat LSU and leave football to the grown-ups.
Consequently, also have to be able to stop the other guy's running game, something along the lines of limiting the opponent to 125 ypg or less. It's been this way for decades and won't change anytime soon.
As for Jones, he needs to worry about who guards Ben Simmons and can Calipari's guards score enough to beat LSU and leave football to the grown-ups.
I agree with you, SEC has always been a line of scrimmage league, a dominating OL or DL gives you a good chance to win, having both means its a big upset if you lose. Being somewhat balanced offensively makes you tough to defend. LSU has a great running game but no passing game to speak of, force the qb to make consistent throws and you have a good chance to beat them. Bama has a great running game, go man against them to stop the run and they pass the ball well enough to beat your there too, they score 37 points with 5 turnovers. Clemson had a very good running game and a good passing game, those 2 teams are the last ones standing and it would be hard to say anyone else is more balanced as for as being able to hurt you with either.
IMO, this is the reason Ky will have to have an offense and maybe a defense that are totally different from what other teams do that they don't have the time to adequately prepare for. The Bama's of the world will always outman the Ky's, even the ohio states more often than not. Ky will NEVER be able to line-up consistently with Bama or the other top programs in the league using the same approach(es) they use. We may have an occasional win (which is a lot better than where we are now), but we won't beat them consistently.
The biggest issue of all is having the horses. If you have better players, style of play is not nearly as important.
Few questions about Air Raid -
When it was run here the first time did we have superior or even equal talent to other SEC teams on the field?
Saturday after Saturday if you took our 2-deep roster and their 2-deep roster and said OK I'm going to pick the best two at each position, after Couch and Yeast and a couple of more, how many would be off the blue team? Few, darn few. And after Couch left It was even fewer.
Yet gimmick or not we were able to compete and win some, beat some SEC teams and went to bowls and did so with the talent we had and what little we were able to bring in.
And that was pretty much with a staff that all but ignored two aspects of the game-defense and special teams.
Yeah we got our butts kicked many times but there was also success and more importantly hope of competing. Enough hope that it resulted in a stadium expansion.
As far as a dead concept lets not forget that when Brother Bob left his defensive coordinator job at UF to take over the near dumpster fire that was OU, who did he pick for his OC - UK's Mike Leach. One season later Leach lands the HC job at TT and OU, running the same offense just varying the percentage pass to run slightly wins the National Championship.
Shame it's just a gimmick.
I'm sure there are several who would like to call in and add their perspective on that discussion as well ...
Coach Mike Leach line 1
Coach Sonny Dykes line 2
Coach Art Briles line 3
Coach Kliff Kingsbury line 4
Coach Gary Patterson line 5
Coach Dana Holgorsen line 6
And on line 7 the coach Nick Saban and college football are afraid of
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11547946/why-nick-saban-college-football-afraid-hal-mumme
It probably is a dead concept. I'm sure all these coaches want everyone to believe it is because it gives them another advantage, so keep talking it up and most of all get all their opponents to believe it's dead.
These guys will appreciate it.
When it was run here the first time did we have superior or even equal talent to other SEC teams on the field?
Saturday after Saturday if you took our 2-deep roster and their 2-deep roster and said OK I'm going to pick the best two at each position, after Couch and Yeast and a couple of more, how many would be off the blue team? Few, darn few. And after Couch left It was even fewer.
Yet gimmick or not we were able to compete and win some, beat some SEC teams and went to bowls and did so with the talent we had and what little we were able to bring in.
And that was pretty much with a staff that all but ignored two aspects of the game-defense and special teams.
Yeah we got our butts kicked many times but there was also success and more importantly hope of competing. Enough hope that it resulted in a stadium expansion.
As far as a dead concept lets not forget that when Brother Bob left his defensive coordinator job at UF to take over the near dumpster fire that was OU, who did he pick for his OC - UK's Mike Leach. One season later Leach lands the HC job at TT and OU, running the same offense just varying the percentage pass to run slightly wins the National Championship.
Shame it's just a gimmick.
I'm sure there are several who would like to call in and add their perspective on that discussion as well ...
Coach Mike Leach line 1
Coach Sonny Dykes line 2
Coach Art Briles line 3
Coach Kliff Kingsbury line 4
Coach Gary Patterson line 5
Coach Dana Holgorsen line 6
And on line 7 the coach Nick Saban and college football are afraid of
http://espn.go.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/11547946/why-nick-saban-college-football-afraid-hal-mumme
It probably is a dead concept. I'm sure all these coaches want everyone to believe it is because it gives them another advantage, so keep talking it up and most of all get all their opponents to believe it's dead.
These guys will appreciate it.
I just can't agree with some of that ram.
This is the same as Matt Jones ignorant propaganda. Jones says Kentucky will never be able to recruit with SEC teams and just wants something he came make fun of. Kentucky will never line up well against Bama if we think we have to trick Bama into a loss. That didn't even work all that well when Mumme was here. Yes we beat Bama but they were really down in those days---even Louisville beat them then. Brooks built a better program here than Mumme did and unfortunately Joker destroyed it. Brooks beat LSU when LSU was strong. Stoops is doing something neither one of those guys did, he is bringing in talent people like Jones said wasn't possible.
Regardless of what you do, you have to have a LOS. When Bama was down, maybe Saban's first year they were 6-6 and lost to La Monroe, but played Mike Leach's high scoring TT team in a bowl, and destroyed them, TT couldn't score because they couldn't block Bama's 4 rushers. You aren't going to pass against 7 in coverage if the defense is getting pressure with 4, it all comes back to controlling the LOS. Very few teams can get consistent pressure with 4 guys and play 2 deep and 5 under. I remember back in 95 I think, SOS was at UF, they were scoring about 45 a game running 5 wideouts with an empty backfield. They played Nebraska for the NC. Nebraska went man, played bump and run, and rushed 6, someone come free every snap, and beat UF by nearly 50. Those 4-5 wide offenses are exciting to watch, but none of them have actually won anything except in the Big12 where all of them run it. A&M runs it and without a Heisman winner they are ready to run the coach out of town, did run the AD off today, they just are very successful against teams who play sound defense.
This ^
Not to mention Brooks beating Arkansas @ Arkansas (with Darren McFadden & Felix Jones). BTW, Arkansas was the only other team to beat LSU that same year.
And, yes, Stoops is bringing in more talent than any UK coach since Curci, IMHO.
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And this ^
The recent LSU / T Tech bowl game is another example of an Air Raid system having difficulty against a good, but probably not a great LSU/SEC defense.