Crazy Reds stat...

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

just read this at ESPN. Who'd have thunk it....

Entering Wednesday, 121 of the 122 current major professional sports franchises had finished in sole possession of last place in their division at least once since the start of 1984. On Wednesday night the single outlier had its longest streak of nonfutility in pro sports snapped as the Cincinnati Reds clinched last place in the NL Central.

 

[Wall2Boogie]

The new bengals of the 90s. We are cursed to be fans of natti/UK sports lol

 

[GGCAT]

I guess the Reds have the Pirates to thank for allowing them to maintain that streak for the majority of those years.

Considering some of the dumpster fire years we had from 1996-2009, that's really kind of remarkable.

 

[Tskware]

I guess the Reds have the Pirates to thank for allowing them to maintain that streak for the majority of those years.

Considering some of the dumpster fire years we had from 1996-2009, that's really kind of remarkable.

Absolutely, I am amazed that the Reds have not finished last in 30 years.

 

[funKYcat75]

Cubs have done their part to help, as well.

 

[GGCAT]

Absolutely, I am amazed that the Reds have not finished last in 30 years.

Just because things like this interest me, I went back thru the years and found the closest the Reds came during that time to finishing last was 2003, going 69-93 and missing the cellar by one game over the Brewers.

There were a few years when despite losing 90+ games they actually finished 4th in a then 6 team NL Central.....that's a lot of bad baseball in one division.

 

[trueblujr]

I hope they can Brian Price. Plus the damn GM can go with him. I think he was a St. Louis plant brought in to keep the Reds down.

 

[LordEgg_rivals16573]

im grateful all baseball season to be a St. Louis fan. it helps, historically, with the UK football fandom.

 

[LadyCaytIL]

3 best records in baseball are my STL Cardinals, Pirates, and Cubs. The central was one hell of a conference.. Even if the reds and brewers were really good this year, they still had no shot.

 

[LadyCaytIL]

im grateful all baseball season to be a St. Louis fan. it helps, historically, with the UK football fandom.

You a rams fan too? The UK and STL combo is great for baseball and basketball.... just downright depressing for Football lol

 

[Tskware]

I hope they can Brian Price. Plus the damn GM can go with him. I think he was a St. Louis plant brought in to keep the Reds down.

Too many injuries last two years to fairly judge Price. Give this team Cozart, Bailey, Mesaraco, et al, and they would not be a 99 loss team. Plus, they dealt away their pitching at the trade deadline, which artificially deflated their record.

As for Jockety, he should have been fired BEFORE the season, when they failed to land any offensive help, especially in the outfield. Also, did not get much for Cueto or Leake either, IMO.

 

[rmattox]

Too many injuries last two years to fairly judge Price. Give this team Cozart, Bailey, Mesaraco, et al, and they would not be a 99 loss team. Plus, they dealt away their pitching at the trade deadline, which artificially deflated their record.

As for Jockety, he should have been fired BEFORE the season, when they failed to land any offensive help, especially in the outfield. Also, did not get much for Cueto or Leake either, IMO.

You may be right, but IMO, even with those guys they would still have been a sub-.500 team. Relying on Bruce, Votto, Phillips, etc... would have been like the Big Red Machine relying on a player like Ken Griffey. He was a fine player, but not of the Bench, Perez, Morgan, Rose mold. The current Reds are a couple of hall of famers away from even contending.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

Another nutty stat: as of a few days ago, they'd started a rookie pitcher in 59 straight games, and figured to finish out the year with a record 64 game stretch of rookie starters. Old record was 42 straight. As you might guess,they won about a third of those games....

 

[domino79]

Do you think Marty really forgot to hit record on his recorder when interviewing Price before the game yesterday, or did he and Price have words?

 

[qwesley]

They need to sell high on Votto and get out of that contract.

 

[BoulderCat_rivals187983]

As a life long, well since I was 8 or so anyway, Red's fan that's sad. If you follow baseball though you know the Red's basically gave up the last 2 months. They traded their franchise pitcher away and began an onslaught of rookie's. Want misery as a sport's fan? Try having the Rockies and Red's as your 2 baseball teams.

 

[rmattox]

As a life long, well since I was 8 or so anyway, Red's fan that's sad. If you follow baseball though you know the Red's basically gave up the last 2 months. They traded their franchise pitcher away and began an onslaught of rookie's. Want misery as a sport's fan? Try having the Rockies and Red's as your 2 baseball teams.

They were destined to be a 90 loss team well before opening day had their roster stayed together and had everyone remained healthy. I predicted their record to be something like 70-92. Unfortunately, I was close. They simply have too many weak links and no real stars. The Reds' idea of being competitive is being in the running for a one of the wildcard positions. Being a fan of the B R Machine, "competitive" means you have a strong chance of winning the World Series. The Reds have not been competitive since the early 90's.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

ram1955, I'm not the biggest Votto fan, but just going by conventional thinking you're underselling JV. He still gets the occasional glowing profile in the press. Saw one just a couple of days ago at Grantland.....

 

[domino79]

His OBP was unreal, especially after the all star break. Votto is worth it.

 

[qwesley]

His OBP was unreal, especially after the all star break. Votto is worth it.

Historic year and still last place. He will take up ~25% of the payroll until 2023 and age 40. Big risk.

 

[rmattox]

ram1955, I'm not the biggest Votto fan, but just going by conventional thinking you're underselling JV. He still gets the occasional glowing profile in the press. Saw one just a couple of days ago at Grantland.....[/QUOTE

Like I said in an earlier post, with the B R Machine as my standard, Votto reminds me of a Ken Griffey level player. I admit he's very good, but not the franchise player a Rose, Bench, Perez or Morgan level player would be. No problem with the Reds keeping him, though he's over paid. He's not the kind of player that's going to lead you to winning a WS . We need some Miguel Cabrera's on this team if we're going to be competitive.

 

[Tskware]

Historic year and still last place. He will take up ~25% of the payroll until 2023 and age 40. Big risk.

But there are too many other good 1B out there, who is going to pay you a king's ransom for a 32 year old 1B with a history of injuries? Even the Yankees aren't that stupid anymore.

 

[qwesley]

But there are too many other good 1B out there, who is going to pay you a king's ransom for a 32 year old 1B with a history of injuries? Even the Yankees aren't that stupid anymore.

The Blue Jays are aggressive these days and might want a Canadian.

The Tigers gave Fielder a ridiculous contract and still flipped him for a very good 2b in Kinsler. Lots of dumb teams with money.

 

[NKYWildcat]

Votto is great, but the Reds cannot afford that contract. Maybe the Sawx might be interested.

They need to also see what they can get for Bruce and Frazier, see if they can talk Phillips into accepting a trade to a contending team, he is at the backside of his career and the Reds arent going to be good again with him again. Stock up on some positional talent. Go full rebuild. One bright spot, they've gotten some of the growing pains out of the way when it comes to the pitching staff this year.

 

[Violent Cuts]

To respond to a few others above:

• The Reds got a lot out of the Cueto and Leake trades. You'll see a lot of those guys in the rotation the next few years (some already have)
• They absolutely had stars at the beginning of the year. Votto will likely be in the top 2-3 in NL MVP despite one of the worst teams in MLB. Cueto is one of the top 5-10 pitchers in baseball. Chapman is probably the best closer. They just didn't have any depth. When they lost Bailey, Mesoraco, and Cozart, they were done.
• The Reds get the #2 draft pick for next year's draft. They have some good young talent and if they can develop a top of the rotation starter, they should be competitive in 2017 and could be really good moving forward.

 

[rmattox]

To respond to a few others above:

• The Reds got a lot out of the Cueto and Leake trades. You'll see a lot of those guys in the rotation the next few years (some already have)
• They absolutely had stars at the beginning of the year. Votto will likely be in the top 2-3 in NL MVP despite one of the worst teams in MLB. Cueto is one of the top 5-10 pitchers in baseball. Chapman is probably the best closer. They just didn't have any depth. When they lost Bailey, Mesoraco, and Cozart, they were done.
• The Reds get the #2 draft pick for next year's draft. They have some good young talent and if they can develop a top of the rotation starter, they should be competitive in 2017 and could be really good moving forward.

Depends on what your definition of competitive is. No way with this team will they compete for the WS. IMO,they would not have had they remained 100% healthy all season. I agree they did very well with the Cueto/Leake trades. They need to do the same thing with Chapman as they cannot afford to pay a ton of money to a closer when they don't have enough offense to put them in a position to win anyway. IMO, dump Votto, Bruce, Phillips and Frazier. If you're not going to go to the WS anyway, just start rebuilding by stocking up on talent.

 

[Violent Cuts]

I agree with you for the most part, except for Frazier. But they can't go for a complete rebuild because it will destroy attendance. Look at Cleveland and Houston. They're hoping they can just sell a few pieces and compete sooner rather than later. I do think they'll try to move Chapman and Bruce at a minimum this offseason.

 

[rmattox]

Of the four guys I named, Frazier would be the one I'd want to keep. Spoke, in passing, with Jeff Pecorro (sp) last weekend, he mentioned Chapman. I took it as Chapman might be on the block this winter.

 

[PuffyNips]

Here is some inside info for you... A deal between the Reds and Blue Jays was reached for Votto earlier this year and Castellini vetoed it.

Phillips, Bruce and Chapman were all being shopped. The Reds were asking for too much.

I think Chapman will be dealt at the break next year.

I think Price is the worst manager in the majors. Ausmus at Detroit may be worse, but it is close.

 

[Tskware]

Agree on Phillips and Chapman, but Bruce is horrible. Who would take him?

 

[Violent Cuts]

Bruce isn't horrible. 10th in NL in HR. Top 15 in doubles are RBI. One of the best defensive RF in the game. His batting average is horrible.

He's only signed for 1 more season, so he's probably one of the most likely to get traded along with Chapman.

 

[PuffyNips]

Agree on Phillips and Chapman, but Bruce is horrible. Who would take him?

They almost had a deal with the Mets in August.

 

[Tskware]

Bruce isn't horrible. 10th in NL in HR. Top 15 in doubles are RBI. One of the best defensive RF in the game. His batting average is horrible.

He's only signed for 1 more season, so he's probably one of the most likely to get traded along with Chapman.

He strikes out literally 1/3 of his at bats and can go a week without a hit. Even in his good years he was streaky as hell, and has gotten worse three seasons in a row. Yes, he can play his position, but no one ever made a MLB lineup by being a great right fielder, great SS, 2B or C, yes, but RFs have got to hit to keep their spot in the lineup.

 

[trueblujr]

Keep Frazier, he's a good guy and clubhouse leader. I think they are stuck with Vottos contract for a while longer. Use those two as your foundation and build up from there. Problem is Frazier will be commanding Votto type money if he has another strong season. Phillips can go, but I think they are likely stuck with him too. I'll hate seeing Chapman go, but I know that's inevitable.

Question is, who will be out there on the free agent market that will be affordable. Especially a couple of starting pitchers that still have a couple of good years left so they don't have to burn up a ton of second year arms barely ready for the league? They have good young pitching coming up, but those guys still need the comfort of having a solid veteran in there pitching around them to take pressure off of them. Will Bailey be ready by spring?

 

[Violent Cuts]

Good post - all accounts say that Bailey will be ready by Spring - he may not be available opening day but definitely within the first month.

Agree with your other post. No idea who's available but they need a lot of pitching help. Need to completely overhaul the bullpen and need at least 1 veteran starter. Arroyo is available, I hope they can sign him to mentor the young kids and give them a bunch of innings.

Hopefully they move Suarez to LF because I think he's a keeper. And if they trade Chapman and Bruce they really need some bats as their farm system only has a couple of decent bats and they aren't near ready. I wouldn't be surprised at a crazy off-season. Pretty much everyone will be available and they have a ton of needs.

 

[rmattox]

Like your idea about Arroyo as mentor. IMO, the thing missing the last two or three years that was so valuable the years before was having leadership and maturity on the team. Scott Roland and Miguel Cairo provided an intangible that's been missing the last three years.

 

[Violent Cuts]

Been lots of rumors plus Latos's statements about immaturity and lack of leadership. You'd think Votto, Bruce, and Phillips would have the veteran leadership to do it, but apparently not. Frazier and Mes seem like good leaders but they're still young.

 

[elwood_blue]

No matter how bad you Cinci fans think you have it, your last World Series ring is still 2 years newer than my Dodgers.

 

[ktbug]

Since we are talking baseball here. I am 44 years old. The first 42 years of my life pro baseball was my favorite pro sport. Could tell you any stat, who plays where, so on and so forth. Would watch the Reds on tv any time they were on. In the last 2 years I have probably watched 10 minutes of play. With the onset of the Yankee/Redsox love fest, and the dominance of large market teams, baseball lost me. I wish the Reds well, but I won't be watching. I have to think baseball is in trouble when they lose fans like me.

 

[wildcat1973_rivals160373]

Dominance of large market teams? What about St. Louis, Pittsburgh and Kansas City? 3 mid market teams from the Midwest/Rust Belt, and 3 of the Top 5 teams in baseball this season.