Defensive Line
- Thread starter Brock28
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Don't know what would make you feel better. M. Lewis, C. Robinson, F. Huguenin are gone. M. Elam, R. Meant, A. Middleton, J. Hyde, K. Daniel, A. Bell, C. Miggins are back. Juco N. Pringle has been added. All the new freshmen will redshirt. Meant and Middleton are rapidly improving players. If Elam keeps improving, the middle of the line could be pretty good. I worry a little bit about the edges but I like the potential of Kengera Daniel. His Dad has posted here before, and it would be interesting to hear what he thinks.
Depends on your frame of reference. If you are measuring our DL against Bama, then yeah, sure, I'm worried too. If you are measuring our DL vs last yr's......I think it will be about the same.
Although, I do think that a much improved offense, improved depth across the entire team, an improved 2ndary, and an improved LB corps is going to make the DL look better. And they may even register better stats......even though they are about like last yr talent wise.
Although, I do think that a much improved offense, improved depth across the entire team, an improved 2ndary, and an improved LB corps is going to make the DL look better. And they may even register better stats......even though they are about like last yr talent wise.
Yeah I think the standard should be improvement and we will be. Daniel and Miggins should be an upgrade at DE. DT should be a slight down grade but not a huge drop off. Overall depth will be better so the key will be Elam. I'm going on a limb and saying he has a big year.
The key this year will be LBs more so than DL. Particularly the OLB spots. If we get any kind of pass rush from them the defense as a whole will be better.
The key this year will be LBs more so than DL. Particularly the OLB spots. If we get any kind of pass rush from them the defense as a whole will be better.
The defense has some pretty good talent and experience. Meant is on course to be a stand out. Elam played well stuffing the running lanes. If Elam can continue to lose bad weight and improve his pursuit the dline will be pretty good.
I hope you are right but I just don't see much upside with Meant. He is just not very explosive and mediocre at the point of attack. I watched him given driven back on a pretty consistent basis. He was actually the one that was driven back into Lewis when he broke his leg. Imo middleton, miggins, and dubose have a much higher upside
And Elam is the key. He needs to get to a point where he just ant be blocked by one guy. That hasn't happened. I saw ULs ****** undersized center block him straight up. Holding but blocked him
Meantt was running ahead of cj before injury. Miggins was described as the most impressive dline guy in one on one's til he got banged up. Elam looked better the last couple games then he looked early this year.
We are thin at NT but overall the talent and depth is better on the dline than most of my lifetime. UK seldom has more than 1 or 2 guys that could play for more than a few sec teams. I think we got 5 this year. May be missing an absolute star but the overall talent is better.
The lb'er play could help the line a lot. I thought Forrest was responsible for some big gains that the line did a good job of mucking lanes. We'll see in the spring though.
We are thin at NT but overall the talent and depth is better on the dline than most of my lifetime. UK seldom has more than 1 or 2 guys that could play for more than a few sec teams. I think we got 5 this year. May be missing an absolute star but the overall talent is better.
The lb'er play could help the line a lot. I thought Forrest was responsible for some big gains that the line did a good job of mucking lanes. We'll see in the spring though.
It's hard to spin this unit as anything but a huge question mark in 2016...and an argument can be made the group simply has very limited ceiling in terms of talent and will likely play at a poor SEC DL unit level.
1. I like Elam...I personally don't get all the negative comments he gets. He did a fine job after Lewis went down. He is not a pass rusher (but name me one decent NT that ever has been). But he can clog up A and B gaps with his size. He was not blocked in run game vs. UL center....UL couldn't run the ball outside of Lamar Jackson on read option which was all on our OLB not playing their responsibilities. I think his next 2 years...he turns into a weapon vs. the run and frees up our LBers to make more plays w/o worrying so much on the run game.
2. I can't spin Middleton, Meant, Miggins, etc..To me, they should be depth guys but not SEC starters. Sadly, we may be counting on them for 1 or 2 starting spots. THe dropoff to what Cory Johnson gave us looks to be a pretty big drop in production...it's all I can see at this point.
3. The best I can spin for DL is for Kenegra Daniel to really take the DE spot and breakout in his So season. And hopefully he can give us a lift from what Hueningen gave us at DE last year...which was pretty pedestrian impact.
I think the biggest improvement from our up front unit is you have to add production Jack and Sam OLB spots....as these guys give you basically the pass rush threats. I really hope Hatcher has a crazy breakout year in his final rodeo. He can really be the most important player for UK as we have to have him off the edge. Laster/Bonner...maybe these guys can bring a presence off the edge as well. And finally Ware has to play better and i think he will in his 2nd year.
I'm not overly confident in our up front unit this year but maybe the LBers will really be that much improved over last year to mask their weaknesses.
1. I like Elam...I personally don't get all the negative comments he gets. He did a fine job after Lewis went down. He is not a pass rusher (but name me one decent NT that ever has been). But he can clog up A and B gaps with his size. He was not blocked in run game vs. UL center....UL couldn't run the ball outside of Lamar Jackson on read option which was all on our OLB not playing their responsibilities. I think his next 2 years...he turns into a weapon vs. the run and frees up our LBers to make more plays w/o worrying so much on the run game.
2. I can't spin Middleton, Meant, Miggins, etc..To me, they should be depth guys but not SEC starters. Sadly, we may be counting on them for 1 or 2 starting spots. THe dropoff to what Cory Johnson gave us looks to be a pretty big drop in production...it's all I can see at this point.
3. The best I can spin for DL is for Kenegra Daniel to really take the DE spot and breakout in his So season. And hopefully he can give us a lift from what Hueningen gave us at DE last year...which was pretty pedestrian impact.
I think the biggest improvement from our up front unit is you have to add production Jack and Sam OLB spots....as these guys give you basically the pass rush threats. I really hope Hatcher has a crazy breakout year in his final rodeo. He can really be the most important player for UK as we have to have him off the edge. Laster/Bonner...maybe these guys can bring a presence off the edge as well. And finally Ware has to play better and i think he will in his 2nd year.
I'm not overly confident in our up front unit this year but maybe the LBers will really be that much improved over last year to mask their weaknesses.
Meant played like a beast in the Florida game. He was dinged up at the end of the year. Meant has a ton of upside he played pretty darn well for a sophomore. I remember a few games the announcers saying he was impressive.
We will see if Looney RSs. C Johnson is probably what you meant to type, not Robinson.
This should help. What I believe is not equated or considered in most fans objectivity regarding our DL is this.
In a 3-4 alignment the production of your DL is not expected to be phenomenal in respects to the entirety of the defense.
The "weight" of your defense in 3-4 relies on you LB core for tackles and sacks not your DL.
to put into perspective your super bowl championship defense Denver Broncos starting DL accounted for
8.3% of total tackles & 4% of total sacks
Your UK wildcats of (Huguenin, Meant, Elam/Lewis)
8.5%, 4.25%
So in respects to overall defensive contribution as a unit our DL was better than the SB champs.
the issue is overall defense and LB. Where your leading tackler should be your ILBS and your leading sacks should be your OLBS
So the heat the DL is getting is somewhat unjustified according to their role in DL.
if to blame, it is Ware, Hatcher, Henderson, Fannigan & Forrest (in small part) for the defensive woes.
In a 3-4 alignment the production of your DL is not expected to be phenomenal in respects to the entirety of the defense.
The "weight" of your defense in 3-4 relies on you LB core for tackles and sacks not your DL.
to put into perspective your super bowl championship defense Denver Broncos starting DL accounted for
8.3% of total tackles & 4% of total sacks
Your UK wildcats of (Huguenin, Meant, Elam/Lewis)
8.5%, 4.25%
So in respects to overall defensive contribution as a unit our DL was better than the SB champs.
the issue is overall defense and LB. Where your leading tackler should be your ILBS and your leading sacks should be your OLBS
So the heat the DL is getting is somewhat unjustified according to their role in DL.
if to blame, it is Ware, Hatcher, Henderson, Fannigan & Forrest (in small part) for the defensive woes.
I remember the play Meant got hurt on, It didn't look like much and I thought he would be back in the game maybe, but he never came back the same player and I never knew what kind of injury he had. So we do need depth, maybe we will have some pleasant surprises.
I like where you were going with this. Before you can judge how a DL performs you have to know what they are supposed to do.
-The NT position is such a position that gets misinterpreted. For being a true freshman, Elam actually played well....just as K-time stated above. I'm actually fairly excited about when he improves his conditioning, technique, and experience.
-Another expression I hear is, "John Doe gets constantly pushed off the ball, he's horrible." You need to understand what's going on. On your average run play a DL is supposed to hold the point of attack, keeping the OL at arm's length, and then perform a gap peek. Once the determination is made which direction the ball is going then he has to shed his block and make a move. Failure to do this is usually a technique issue.....not a conditioning or talent issue. If he gets close to the OL, he's screwed....not much he can do. Inexperienced guys concede ground as they try to perform the gap peek and/or lose ground as they try to shuck the block. And you don't want bull rush and penetrate too much/often b/c it will take you out of position to make the play. If a DL concedes some ground routinely but still only allows an avg of 2.9 yds/carry, it's ok....in fact they're doing something right.
-"John Doe was horrible last yr as a Freshman, he doesn't have it." Above all other positions, your average lineman takes much longer to develop than other positions. Once again this is mostly due to technique. Most linemen have never really even used much technique before. In HS they often just use their size, strength, speed to get by. But in college, they can't do that. So, don't make the mistake of judging linemen after only their fresh/soph yrs.
Our rushing defense was ranked 96th in the country last year and 70th on 3rd down defense. We lost our three starters from that line. It's hard for me to agree with all the blue tinted foresight we see on this board. I'm hoping our defense will improve overall this year but it's nearly impossible for me to see that improvement being lead by our DL next year.
People have for years pumped unwarranted optimism into our football program. I actually think we should be a better team next year but anybody who thinks our DL will be more than very mediocre in the SEC next year is an overly optimistic fan. As someone said above our starters next year would be good back-ups in the SEC---maybe.
After watching CJ Johnson, our only four star DL perform last year, it raises a concern about DL coaching for me that he was not the starting DT from the beginning.
Kentucky fans are the worst when it comes to building up our team during the off-season only to wind up ragging the heck out of them when they can't meet the false hype created and screaming somebody ought to be fired.
That is the same mentality that showed last year in the case of Swindle. People on here ragged him unmercifully never comprehending although he was playing injured at an unfamiliar position he was the best we had. Nobody played well at the LT position last year and instead of questioning the OC who took forever to grasp we needed help blocking from a RB, some fans just berated Swindle and made him the scapegoat all year when the fact was we didn't have any replacement better than Swindle.
It will be the same for our DL this year as fans already have started the hype machine up and are feeding it with extravagant pretense.
People have for years pumped unwarranted optimism into our football program. I actually think we should be a better team next year but anybody who thinks our DL will be more than very mediocre in the SEC next year is an overly optimistic fan. As someone said above our starters next year would be good back-ups in the SEC---maybe.
After watching CJ Johnson, our only four star DL perform last year, it raises a concern about DL coaching for me that he was not the starting DT from the beginning.
Kentucky fans are the worst when it comes to building up our team during the off-season only to wind up ragging the heck out of them when they can't meet the false hype created and screaming somebody ought to be fired.
That is the same mentality that showed last year in the case of Swindle. People on here ragged him unmercifully never comprehending although he was playing injured at an unfamiliar position he was the best we had. Nobody played well at the LT position last year and instead of questioning the OC who took forever to grasp we needed help blocking from a RB, some fans just berated Swindle and made him the scapegoat all year when the fact was we didn't have any replacement better than Swindle.
It will be the same for our DL this year as fans already have started the hype machine up and are feeding it with extravagant pretense.
If new Kentucky coach Mark Stoops' results are any indication, UK's defense can expect quick and sustained improvement. As a defensive coordinator at Florida State (2010-12) and Arizona (2003-09), Stoops inherited defenses ranked outside the top 100 in yards per game. Both teams improved to the top 25 by the end of his time." - Aaron Smith, CatsIllustrated.com
I have high expectations now that Stoops has his players and coaches aboard.
He hangs his hat on being a great defensive mind.
Why should we not expect results this season?
Stop with the excuses and meet expectations.
I have high expectations now that Stoops has his players and coaches aboard.
He hangs his hat on being a great defensive mind.
Why should we not expect results this season?
Stop with the excuses and meet expectations.
I agree with this but I do account for the fact that Stoops had a LOT MORE to work with at FSU than even now at Kentucky. I don't expect a quick turn around on defense but a steady improvement helped with an effective offense is what I hope to see.
I think our line backers have gotten somewhat of a bad rep, From what I've seen it appears blockers get to the second level without much difficulty. Mostly one on one blocking for the offense against our defensive line. Puts too much pressure on the line backers and defensive backs.
With all that being said, I am excited about or DL. Mainly because they now have a higher level of OL talent to go against in 1 on 1 and scrimmage matchups in practice. Have you seen our OL depth chart lately? I asked my son how he plans to show what he can do to the coaches this spring and summer and his response was speed/technique/strength/hands more speed/technique/strength/hands. The development of DL here under this coaching staff has been well documented in previous threads and that is going against what some may call less than stellar OL on a daily basis. You can call it unwarranted optimism at this point some may call it excitement about Stoops having his first full offseason development program and coaching staff that he wants in place. Will have to wait and see what happens. I believe most of the growing pains of being a HC of a program that quite frankly needed to be re-built on so many levels are in the past.
As for good backups in the SEC. I don't think Stoops and Co make you a priority and you get to hang out with Nick and his family in Alabama if either one of them did not think you could develop into a full time starter in the SEC. It is a matter of how long it takes but some of these DL could start at other SEC schools.
To me, I think the key to the defensive line will be our new strength coach and what he can do
Another point I'd like to throw in about the "getting pushed off the ball" part is that this is the most overly used cliche by fans and is wrong almost 100% of the time. I rarely saw one of our DL getting actually pushed off the ball. Offenses don't really do that much anymore. Most of the offenses we faced were in spread formation with the QB in shotgun. They are running at bubbles in the defense not trying to power over a DL. Most of those gaps teams are running through should have been filled by a LB. Besides I thought we defended up the middle pretty well. It's runs outside the edge that killed us time and time again.
Levibooty, I don't see anything written as "blue-tinted" foresight. One of the major issues with board discussion in my opinion is being able to focus on topic. The topic is how can he feel better about the DL. In that respect I think folks (myself included) are saying that the DL is not the "sole" problem of the 96th ranked run defense. In honesty here, you blame the DL for the long runs ripped off by Lamar Jackson? Of course not, those fall solely on the LBs that gave up containment. Also, to again be honest with evaluation I for one don't recall many long runs given up the middle for which the DL is responsible for. Do you? As was stated at nauseum is UK couldnt defend read options QBS who 80-90% of the time run "outside", with that in mind the DL had to be doing something right as they never "gave" the ball for a run up the gut (DL responsibility). So in the aspects of a 96th ranked defense they performed their responsibility ok. Now when the "total defense" is 25th will it be caused by the DL? Not entirely, but imo of 3-4 responsibility more so it will be due to the 4 LBS making tackles, sacks and god-forbid the correct gap read based on the DL gap responsibility (right or wrong). That knowledge on top of other points as the DL previous youth and likelihood to 'progress' should provide hope not doom. That's the points being made "on topic" which to me is not "blue-tinted" but observatory. One last point, you are definitely right about CJ. It is a head-scratching idea as to why he didn't get more reps. In all honesty he was our best person on defense. When you have a DL the 3rd leading tackler (SS-Stamps 2nd) all the other LBS need to look themselves in the mirror and ask what they want out of their time here. Again, not the "fault" or lack of the DL is the sole "non-SEC" like blame.
Overreaching expectations is another topic which we all have plenty to contribute to, just not this thread.
Good post.
UL game - Radcliff 62 yards (Lamar Jackson 186)
MSU game Holloway 36 yards (Dak Prescott 117)
UT game - Hurd 61 yards (Dobbs 51)
Auburn game - Peyton Barber 92 yards
Mizz game - Ish Witter 50 yards (Mauk 49 yards)
UF game - Taylor 45 yards (Grier 61 yards)
USC game - Wilids 106 yards.
UGA game is the lone game we got lit up by a RB...Sony Michel went off for 165 yards and his back up did 60yards.
I just don't remember watching games when teams just hammered it down our throats on the ground. It was more deception run plays we could not diagnose. And then our DL/LBers were just awful at generating a pass rush is my main DL negative comment....but to the point of poster...in a 3-4...they aren't really tasked with generated a big pass rush...that is moreso on the LBers.
I agree, tackles, sacks and QB hurries are not good metrics to measure 3-4 D-linemen. If the linemen are doing a good job, the stats show up in other places - especially with the linebackers.
Well, I official don't feel any better about this position group, lol. That's what we've really missed in our recruiting over the past few years is big time D-linemen (with the exception of a couple). This position scares the crap out of me heading in to the 2016 season. Hopefully I will be pleasantly surprised.
^Well, like I said earlier, what are you expecting? If in 2016 you desire a completely dominant SEC DL and go 10-2 on the yr; you'll be disappointed. If you are expecting the DL to play about the same but improvements in almost all other areas to where winning 6-7 regular season games is a very real possibility, you'll be kinda satisfied.
No offense but I do not see any over hyping in this thread. The op asked a question and people are trying to give him some positives that he asked for. We return 2 jucos and two players that played a bunch as sophomores. I don't think we dominate the sec up front but there is some talent in this group. The rushing totals are from teams beating us on the edges. The middle of the defense was very good last year. Another thing to take into account we faced some of the top rushing offenses in the country.
Our overall number, against quarterback rushing yards, is astonishing; in a bad way.
By my unofficial calculation, opposing quarterbacks had a net total of 608 rushing yards against us. That's over 50 yards a games. That's more yards that Dak Prescott, one of the top running quarterbacks, rushed for in the regular season. By way of comparison, our net on the season was 105, with a fairly mobile pair of quarterbacks playing. I wonder there is a single team in the nation that allowed that many net yards rushing to quarterbacks. If we weren't the worst team in the country in that category, we had to have been close. We even got gashed pretty good from the qb's from EKU, Lafayette, and Charlotte.
Good point about QB rushing. Which in a 3-4 places more responsibility on the LBs than the DL....well, at least quite a bit more so than in a 4-3.
Honestly, when trying to analyze defensive front performance in a 3-4 look at how the entire front 7 function as a unit......don't focus on the DL specifically.....or the LB corps specifically.
Wow OK So for those that are saying we were really good up the middle last year then I repeat our highest ranked DL C.J.Johnson is GONE. The other two interior linemen are GONE. To make matters worse our two big interior LB's Johnson 272 lbs and Forrest 255Lbs will not be backing up that interior this year either because they are GONE.
Elam was NOT a freshman last year he was a true So. He will have to replace Reggie Lewis which will leave his back-up in question. Pringle should be the man there but will he be ready to play in the SEC? That's unknown, in any case I question if Elam/Pringle is an improvement over Lewis/Elam.
I certainly do not think Meant/Middleton is an improvement of C.J.Johnson/Meant. Does somebody here believe that is the case?
At the DE we lose Huguenin so Huguenin/Miggins will be Miggins/Daniels both of which are projects of sorts with the younger Daniel holding the most promise after needed maturation.
So there is your interior line that I feel very comfortable saying will take some steps back this year and that does not bold well. As I have said earlier I do expect the defense to improve overall but the DL won't be on the vanguard of that improvement. I expect the Lb's and the Jack to know their assignments better this year and understand why trusting your teammates is important for manning your gap.
BTW we were 118th in Tackles for loss last year also.
I think this defense improves based on the old adage, "A rising tide lifts all boats." I think improvement in talent at some positions, maturation (that's a biggie), and help from a rejuvenated offense will work together to help the defense get off the field this year but I do not think our DL will be improved especially at the beginning of the year.
And yes I think comparing our DL to the SB Champions in any aspect as more effective is a good example of blue-tinted hyperbole. That's just me.
Elam was NOT a freshman last year he was a true So. He will have to replace Reggie Lewis which will leave his back-up in question. Pringle should be the man there but will he be ready to play in the SEC? That's unknown, in any case I question if Elam/Pringle is an improvement over Lewis/Elam.
I certainly do not think Meant/Middleton is an improvement of C.J.Johnson/Meant. Does somebody here believe that is the case?
At the DE we lose Huguenin so Huguenin/Miggins will be Miggins/Daniels both of which are projects of sorts with the younger Daniel holding the most promise after needed maturation.
So there is your interior line that I feel very comfortable saying will take some steps back this year and that does not bold well. As I have said earlier I do expect the defense to improve overall but the DL won't be on the vanguard of that improvement. I expect the Lb's and the Jack to know their assignments better this year and understand why trusting your teammates is important for manning your gap.
BTW we were 118th in Tackles for loss last year also.
I think this defense improves based on the old adage, "A rising tide lifts all boats." I think improvement in talent at some positions, maturation (that's a biggie), and help from a rejuvenated offense will work together to help the defense get off the field this year but I do not think our DL will be improved especially at the beginning of the year.
And yes I think comparing our DL to the SB Champions in any aspect as more effective is a good example of blue-tinted hyperbole. That's just me.
Nobody compared us talent wise to Denver your just putting words in that posters mouth. We run a similar scheme to Denver so I'm not sure why you even brought that up.
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Alright 3kids and Levi, let's not derail the thread with back/forth heated stuff.
In the end does it matter how good the DL is next yr? Meaning, that if we win 6-7 games next yr due to improvement across the board and it appears that the recruiting is looking great across all positions, does it matter if the DL as a group is Bama or Powder Puff?
In all likelihood the DL itself will probably be similar to last yr.....but we can still win 6-7 despite this.
In the end does it matter how good the DL is next yr? Meaning, that if we win 6-7 games next yr due to improvement across the board and it appears that the recruiting is looking great across all positions, does it matter if the DL as a group is Bama or Powder Puff?
In all likelihood the DL itself will probably be similar to last yr.....but we can still win 6-7 despite this.
Here is the qoute above and it falls under my words "in any aspect":
"So in respects to overall defensive contribution as a unit our DL was better than the SB champs."
I think Middleton may surprise a few folks next year and as some have said the LB's may help the DL be better.Forrest put up good numbers and was good in coverage but many of his tackles were 5 to 7 yards downfield,I believe Love and Laster will make more plays around the line.