Does Zion make our struggles go away

duhondukie

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Jan 12, 2010
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Before Zion got hurt we were starting to struggle, Louisville is a prime example. I get that Zion is a once in a lifetime player and brings energy and passion but in my opinion I am not sure he is a cure all once he gets back. If you go back and watch the games early in the season the ball was moving on offense and not so 1 on 1 based. You watch today and it is the exact opposite. I think Zion makes a bit of a difference but I am not so sure he cures all the problems we have. We lost to Syracuse with him and probably should have lost to Louisville.
I am sure people will jump down my throat for this but I do not think K has done his best job coaching this year.
 
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Shatterthesky22

All-Conference
Dec 8, 2018
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Before Zion got hurt we were starting to struggle, Louisville is a prime example. I get that Zion is a once in a lifetime player and brings energy and passion but in my opinion I am not sure he is a cure all once he gets back. If you go back and watch the games early in the season the ball was moving on offense and not so 1 on 1 based. You watch today and it is the exact opposite. I think Zion makes a bit of a difference but I am not so sure he cures all the problems we have. We lost to Syracuse with him and probably should have lost to Louisville.
Every team has bad nights, Louisville was a very bad night for 31 minutes, we didn't have Cam or Tre to guard either of Syracuse 's guards. **** happens and we'll be fine.
 

Laettner

All-Conference
Mar 11, 2002
6,249
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Before Zion got hurt we were starting to struggle, Louisville is a prime example. I get that Zion is a once in a lifetime player and brings energy and passion but in my opinion I am not sure he is a cure all once he gets back. If you go back and watch the games early in the season the ball was moving on offense and not so 1 on 1 based. You watch today and it is the exact opposite. I think Zion makes a bit of a difference but I am not so sure he cures all the problems we have. We lost to Syracuse with him and probably should have lost to Louisville.
I am sure people will jump down my throat for this but I do not think K has done his best job coaching this year.

- Afraid Zion will try to do too much upon return
- Agree with K having subpar year.
- Five Out is an AAU offense used when you have better athletes but there are times when motion sets are needed & that rarely happens.
- We were visibly unglued in UNC game, with all the talk of mental toughness how does that happen? I could see a few mins of being knocked
back but not guarding wide open forwards under basket & firing 3's occurred all night.
- No one has developed as season progressed. AOC is only playing due to Zion injury.
- ISO ball will be our downfall in NCAA's

Just my opinions here, still love Duke.
 

duhondukie

All-Conference
Jan 12, 2010
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- Afraid Zion will try to do too much upon return
- Agree with K having subpar year.
- Five Out is an AAU offense used when you have better athletes but there are times when motion sets are needed & that rarely happens.
- We were visibly unglued in UNC game, with all the talk of mental toughness how does that happen? I could see a few mins of being knocked
back but not guarding wide open forwards under basket & firing 3's occurred all night.
- No one has developed as season progressed. AOC is only playing due to Zion injury.
- ISO ball will be our downfall in NCAA's

Just my opinions here, still love Duke.

Agree with everything you added Laettner. AOC needs to get more shots but will go back to mop up duty when Zion returns. ISO ball and jacking up 3 point shots will hurt us in the NCAA and possibly much earlier in the tournament than some people think.
The lack of development is mind blowing from kids not named RJ and Zion. I think this is where I think K has struggled the most this year.
I still love them as well and will cheer like heck for them but something does not seem right with this group right now.
 

nets on nets on nets

All-American
Jun 4, 2015
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I don't think our guys are any worse than they were when we were destroying everyone in our path. The film is out on Duke and coaches are learning the book on how to defend us, it started with the L'Ville game.
-NO ONE is guarding Tre beyond the foul line, his man has made it more difficult for RJ and Cam to get into the lane. (mainly Cam because RJ is just an absolute boss)
-Do whatever it takes to make RJ go right, easier said than done, but teams are trying this.
-Get up in Cam and don't give him any space, the ball can be taken from him if you pressure him
-Don't respect Jack offensively at all, let him shoot. (I think Jack is gonna come around and hit big shots.)

Since Tre and Jack command zero attention, there guys have sunk into the lane. Anyone notice how we have been getting no offensive rebounds since ZIon went out?? One reason is because, well, Zion. But another reason is teams are packing the lane.
 

dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
11,293
16,311
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I don't think our guys are any worse than they were when we were destroying everyone in our path. The film is out on Duke and coaches are learning the book on how to defend us, it started with the L'Ville game.
-NO ONE is guarding Tre beyond the foul line, his man has made it more difficult for RJ and Cam to get into the lane. (mainly Cam because RJ is just an absolute boss)
-Do whatever it takes to make RJ go right, easier said than done, but teams are trying this.
-Get up in Cam and don't give him any space, the ball can be taken from him if you pressure him
-Don't respect Jack offensively at all, let him shoot. (I think Jack is gonna come around and hit big shots.)

Since Tre and Jack command zero attention, there guys have sunk into the lane. Anyone notice how we have been getting no offensive rebounds since ZIon went out?? One reason is because, well, Zion. But another reason is teams are packing the lane.

Lots of good points here. Teams have made adjustments in how they play Duke, and with Zion out, it becomes even easier.
 

LongTimeDukeFan

All-Conference
Nov 20, 2009
4,424
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I am sure that Coach K is getting tired of the "When's Zion back?" question.

Early in the season, I really liked how K was playing the bench more -- Jack, Jav, AOC. And I am still impressed with Marques' playing this year.

After the Zion injury, there seems to be a wierd vibe going on. I can't recall a player at Duke having this much hype. The fact that Nike dropped over $1B in market value after the shoe thing is still mind blowing. Not sure what is going on with Zion. I know that no one wants to play the kid before he is ready. I am not sure if he (or his parents) are spooked about him playing after the injury. I am honestly not sure if Coach K is spooked in playing him too soon. There have been lots of injuries -- Elton Brand, Ryan Kelly, Kyrie, Giles -- this one feels _really_ different.

I know that the team sort of got away from being a team and it turned into Zion and the other guys. Hope they re-gel here soon.

and yes, I still love my team and coach.
 

GAAP_rivals

All-Conference
Apr 9, 2002
3,663
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Before Zion got hurt we were starting to struggle, Louisville is a prime example...I do not think K has done his best job coaching this year.
1. Louisville game is also a prime example of how much we miss Zion now.

2. A big part of college coaching is recruiting. I think K did an above-average job in that regard.
 
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AlanInNJ

All-Conference
Feb 25, 2014
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Lots of valid offensive points brought up. My goodness, jacking up 3's irks me, but as accurately noted, if the lane is stuffed with 4 defenders there isn't really anywhere to go. RJ really has been extra special getting to the rim in traffic. The traffic in the paint makes it tougher.....see 3 offensive fouls on Cam last night.

What about defense though? We seem a lot less dominating on D in the past 10 games. I am not an X's and O's kinda guy, just a Duke fan and a fan of the game, but it sure looks like teams have figured out how to spread out our D and open up the lanes for drives and back doors. Without Zion to erase a few mistakes a game it looks even worse. It seems this is the same way teams have beaten us over the past several years.

I love Duke Basketball and always will. It just seems like in most of the past 10 years, by this time of the season we knew who we were. This year seems different. Injuries have played a big role.
 
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Quest4Seven

Redshirt
Feb 25, 2019
78
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IMO you guys are the best team in the country when you have Zion. Having 3 top 5 picks on the floor at a time is unheard of. When you guys play well I think only UNC and Gonzaga are capable of beating you and thats only if they are hot from 3. That being said, your style and roster does make you susceptible to getting upset

-you dont really shoot the ball well from outside
-everyone except for Jones seems to struggle with on ball defense
-not alot of depth - very top heavy team. Your best 4 players are miles ahead of any other teams' best 4, but after that you have a lot of players that honestly should not be getting minutes at Duke
-no reliable post presence - Bolden has progressed but he's still not a go-to player in the paint like Okafor, Bagley, Carter were
-RJ Barrett is a player, but hes kind of a black hole on offense at times and that can take the other players on the floor out of rhythm


just my 2 cents!
 

chov1125

All-Conference
Oct 15, 2008
3,044
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I won't bite your head off, but I strongly disagree with you and everyone else that says that K hasn't done a good job this year. I think he's done a remarkable job. I know the theories that you will find over at THR and RR is that K has the most talent in the country and he doesn't need to do anything. Or that we can't struggle because if we lose 1 top draft pick we still have 3 others. I think those theories are complete garbage. Handling a group of freshman is much tougher than it seems. There is a reason why Kentucky and Duke have both only won a single championship during the 1-and-done era.

Think about each year, but this year specifically. Come summer he is getting a new collection of teenagers. They all have their own agendas, they all have been told their entire lives how great they are, they all have been the most important player on every team they have ever been associated with. They are almost always incredibly gifted on offense, but incredibly raw on defense. Simply put, they have never learned proper defense or been taught proper defense because frankly, they never needed it. You know they are only going to be there for 8-10 months, they know they are only going to be there for 8-10 months. You have to take this collection of teenagers and teach them to first become a team and then grow as a team. You are constantly battling egos and parents and media expectations and fan expectations. All believing that you have the easiest job in america because of the talent on your roster. You start the season with exhibition games and non-conference games and you are blowing teams out by 50. Everyone is smiling and laughing and joking. Then life happens. Injuries happen. Slumps happen. Players are forced into positions and roles that they are not ready for. Not because you weren't prepared, but because you don't have enough time to game plan for such uncertainties. You get everyone to buy into the new game plan. Then another important player goes down. Now you need a third game plan.

We are talented, but we have flaws. The more this player goes down or that player goes down the more we have to shift and re-shift our entire team to maximize what is available. In doing so we are creating a whole new set of flaws based on that collection of players. When Tre goes down our entire defense goes down. When Cam goes down our shooting goes down. When Marques goes down our block rate goes down. When Jack White goes through one of the most horrific shooting slumps I have ever seen, our bench production goes down. When Zion goes down our offensive efficiency, turnover rate and block rate all go down in a big way. Think about how much adversity this team has been through this year. Think about how much tinkering we have had to do to account for all of the above.

Now look up at the standings. We are 26-4, with a very strong chance at landing a 1 seed. We have played the toughest schedule in the country while earning that record and possible seeding.

You want to nitpick individual decisions made along the way such as Joey Baker? Go ahead. But if you do a complete evaluation of this team and evaluate the job of our head coach, you simply can't conclude it has been sub-par. At least I can't.
 

germantondevil

All-Conference
Mar 12, 2006
3,178
1,393
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I'm with everyone else in that I love Duke and Coach K, and I pull for every player that comes to Duke, but another downfall for recruiting OADs every year is your upperclassmen are not going to excel and grow at a fast rate. Our upperclassmen would be a heck of a lot better right now if they had 25+ minutes a game and you have to give someone like Luke Maye props. At Duke he would have been another big with very limited minutes but where he is at he has made himself into a very good college player along with several others on that damn team and they are primed for another FF run while right now Duke isn't. You cant beat experience in March and April and you cant argue that fact.
 

sheyduke

All-American
Apr 13, 2010
13,473
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I have mixed feelings on the whole K coaching arguement.

I love coach K and he is the best but some things become very head scratching at times.

I do believe with all the wins Duke has had this season some of the minutes should have gone to the bench given the margin of victory. Now here it is March, Zion goes down, Tre is getting banged up, Reddish is well, not strong with the ball and Dukes three point shooting as a whole has not improved. Baker will always be a head scratcher to me because he’s played very minimal at best with only one game left in the regular season.
Whites confidence on offense is still not back and it seems no one looks for Alex when he is open and he is to shaky to shoot the ball at times. These are problems you want in early January not a week away from selection Sunday.
 

gottagonow

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Apr 14, 2010
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I'm with everyone else in that I love Duke and Coach K, and I pull for every player that comes to Duke, but another downfall for recruiting OADs every year is your upperclassmen are not going to excel and grow at a fast rate. Our upperclassmen would be a heck of a lot better right now if they had 25+ minutes a game and you have to give someone like Luke Maye props. At Duke he would have been another big with very limited minutes but where he is at he has made himself into a very good college player along with several others on that damn team and they are primed for another FF run while right now Duke isn't. You cant beat experience in March and April and you cant argue that fact.
Its hard to believe we are even discussing this given our record of 26-4. Its just that Coach K has no answer for Zion being out. Zion just does so many things great and it causes such positive chain reactions. With him out and not playing its a complete reversal with adverse chain reactions. I certainly dont argue anything you are saying but unfortunately this has become the story of Duke basketball the last few years. It seems like ages since we have had quality upperclass leadership except for a handfull of players scattered about such as a Grayson Allen or a Quinn Cook even though they were not reserves. Its a lot of fun watching our current crop of freshmen, especially Zion, Barrett and Jones. it seems impossible to replace them when they're out with injuries because we have no experienced bench that could overcome just some (double emphasis on just some) of the problems of Zion being out.
 
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truth321

All-Conference
Jul 10, 2007
40,701
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Before Zion got hurt we were starting to struggle, Louisville is a prime example. I get that Zion is a once in a lifetime player and brings energy and passion but in my opinion I am not sure he is a cure all once he gets back. If you go back and watch the games early in the season the ball was moving on offense and not so 1 on 1 based. You watch today and it is the exact opposite. I think Zion makes a bit of a difference but I am not so sure he cures all the problems we have. We lost to Syracuse with him and probably should have lost to Louisville.
I am sure people will jump down my throat for this but I do not think K has done his best job coaching this year.
Struggle or not. We only loss 1 game with a full health team. The reason we struggle without him is he masks alot of our inconsistency shot making. He gets alot of offensive rebounds around the rim and turn them into points. And we call know what he does on defense. Also T Jones in no threat on offense so teams leaving him open to take way our other options. And Reddish is game to game so we dont know what to expect out of him.
 

AlanInNJ

All-Conference
Feb 25, 2014
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I want to point out that while he hasn't been scoring with great efficiency, I thought Jones did a GREAT job taking the ball to rim last night in the spread a couple times. He doesn't need to make a ton of 3's. Realistically, right now that's not his strong suit. But if he can at least attempt a couple 3's to keep his defender honest and then get to rim a few times a game plus hit some foul shots he becomes a solid contributor on offense. He was 4-8 from the field last night with 13 points!
 

chov1125

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Oct 15, 2008
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We have too many 1-and-dones and too many transfers to have upperclassmen. I'm not saying it K's fault, or maybe it is. The ones that are good leave and the ones that don't get immediate playing time leave too. Repeat that over a few year period and the cupboard will get pretty bare. Nobody has recruited like us over the last 5 years so no one has had to deal with this issue like us.
 
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chov1125

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Oct 15, 2008
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Many people mention head scratching decisions and some may be fair. But look at our list of injuries and then our record and how hard can you really complain? Every week is something different.
 
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LetsGoDuke301

Heisman
Apr 4, 2009
71,736
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Short answer to the OP's question. Duke's most concerning struggles will go away with the return of Zion.

People act like great teams never have stretches where they may struggle. Get this team back to 100% and enjoy the run.
 
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Liftee

All-American
Mar 6, 2011
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I share the concerns above but I disagree that Coach K hasn't done a good job this year. For the most part he has gotten top ranked freshmen to buy into playing good team defense.

I think AOC will continue to get decent minutes so long as he focuses on defense and isn't afraid to create some things on offense. I suspect we won't see Baker again unfortunately but if AOC produces, he'll get PT.

Zion is such a presence that he covers others' mistakes on defense and creates havoc to the other team's offense. He also distributes very unselfishly on offense and doesn't need to pound the ball in order to be effective. I think Barrett will be happy to give up the ball when he has someone who will (a) catch the ball and (b) do something with it.

I think Duke is perhaps the 10-15th best team in the country without Zion. I think we are one of the 5 or 6 best with him.
 

Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,133
12,943
107
K is very good, but Zion would make any coach look better. This team, even though we are struggling some right now, gets along and none seem to mind someone else getting the points. The last few seasons K wasn't as fortunate. Those teams were just as talented, if not more.

You also can't make chicken salad out of chicken sh*% either. Our bench is just not good, and some of that is on K and the staff over the years. Zion has masked many shortcomings of others. Even though he's only here one season, he still may be the best I've ever seen.

If Alex can still get good minutes when Zion comes back, and Cam can be more consistent on offense, we may be better than we were earlier in the year.
 

duhondukie

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Jan 12, 2010
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Short answer to the OP's question. Duke's most concerning struggles will go away with the return of Zion.

People act like great teams never have stretches where they may struggle. Get this team back to 100% and enjoy the run.
I am not in any way diminishing the return of Zion but if you think things miraculously get better when he comes back I think we are all going to be disappointed.
 
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Before the injury, I felt the bench regressed and our offense became stagnant with too much ball dribble

@ UNC might be too much to ask but I like the direction our complimentary players are trending
 

dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
11,293
16,311
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I am not in any way diminishing the return of Zion but if you think things miraculously get better when he comes back I think we are all going to be disappointed.

Well, things will get better....and it's no miracle, unless you're counting Zion as a miracle, which is kind of a fair label for him.

Your retort would have been better phrased this way....if you think Zion returning all of a sudden makes us unbeatable, then you're wrong.

Seriously, Zion returning does make a lot of things better. He's our best player and the best player in the country. I mean, we were 23-2 with him in the lineup....we're 3-2 without and look completely out or sorts. It would be more miraculous to me if we weren't significantly better with him in the lineup.
 
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Testkid

Sophomore
Jan 23, 2013
378
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Well, things will get better....and it's no miracle, unless you're counting Zion as a miracle, which is kind of a fair label for him.

Your retort would have been better phrased this way....if you think Zion returning all of a sudden makes us unbeatable, then you're wrong.

Seriously, Zion returning does make a lot of things better. He's our best player and the best player in the country. I mean, we were 23-2 with him in the lineup....we're 3-2 without and look completely out or sorts. It would be more miraculous to me if we weren't significantly better with him in the lineup.
Perfectly put. With him I Still believe we are the best team
 

duhondukie

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Jan 12, 2010
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Well, things will get better....and it's no miracle, unless you're counting Zion as a miracle, which is kind of a fair label for him.

Your retort would have been better phrased this way....if you think Zion returning all of a sudden makes us unbeatable, then you're wrong.

Seriously, Zion returning does make a lot of things better. He's our best player and the best player in the country. I mean, we were 23-2 with him in the lineup....we're 3-2 without and look completely out or sorts. It would be more miraculous to me if we weren't significantly better with him in the lineup.

I hope you are correct, but what do you consider significantly better? Final 4/National Championship?
I would think he would play Thursday in the ACC tournament which would put him out 21 days. I think everyone's expectations are that he will come back and dominate like he did before the injury, I do not think those are fair expectations. I hope I am wrong on that.
We have 3 of the top 5 picks in the NBA draft and 4 first rounders according to projections and we should have lost last night at home to a team with 11 wins.
With the exception of 2015 it seems in the last 9 years Duke peaked in the early months and struggled down the stretch with all this talent.
 

Testkid

Sophomore
Jan 23, 2013
378
192
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I hope you are correct, but what do you consider significantly better? Final 4/National Championship?
I would think he would play Thursday in the ACC tournament which would put him out 21 days. I think everyone's expectations are that he will come back and dominate like he did before the injury, I do not think those are fair expectations. I hope I am wrong on that.
We have 3 of the top 5 picks in the NBA draft and 4 first rounders according to projections we should have lost last night. With the exception of 2015 it seems in the last 9 years Duke peaked in the early months and struggled down the stretch with all this talent.
Yeah but besides last year and 2017 a lot of those teams weren’t legit final four teams. The 2017 didn’t play defense and we never got to see the real Giles .
 

dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
11,293
16,311
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I hope you are correct, but what do you consider significantly better? Final 4/National Championship?
I would think he would play Thursday in the ACC tournament which would put him out 21 days. I think everyone's expectations are that he will come back and dominate like he did before the injury, I do not think those are fair expectations. I hope I am wrong on that.
We have 3 of the top 5 picks in the NBA draft and 4 first rounders according to projections and we should have lost last night at home to a team with 11 wins.
With the exception of 2015 it seems in the last 9 years Duke peaked in the early months and struggled down the stretch with all this talent.

Well, we add a dynamic scorer, our best rebounder and probably best 'team' defender. It would seem natural we're better. Does that equate to final four or national championship? No, but only because anyone with a basic understanding of college basketball knows that in a one-game scenario strange things can happen. Do I feel Zion's presence makes us one of the favorites or 'the' favorite? Yes. Yes, I do.

To your last point, we definitely didn't peak early in 2013, 2017 or last year. We got better throughout those seasons. Just because a season doesn't end by some defined term made up in our head, doesn't mean we faded late. I mean, yeah, we haven't played great the last few weeks, but I don't think it's regressing. I'm not sure how someone builds up a fantasy like that in their head.
 
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Mpm277

All-Conference
Nov 23, 2010
7,445
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We have a great record with Zion playing. Still, we certainly had our problems (far too much iso ball, too in love with the 3 ball, not efficient in a set half court offense, etc.). But even with the problems we had, we were *still* on of best - if not the best - teams in the country. Zion returning isn't going to fix all the problems we have, but he's going to drastically minimize them.
 

Mac9192

Heisman
Jan 25, 2017
9,133
12,943
107
To your last point, we definitely didn't peak early in 2013, 2017 or last year. We got better throughout those seasons. Just because a season doesn't end by some defined term made up in our head, doesn't mean we faded late. I mean, yeah, we haven't played great the last few weeks, but I don't think it's regressing. I'm not sure how someone builds up a fantasy like that in their head.
The difference in this team vs the past 2 is easy. We've seen this bunch play really good ball, and they're scary good. The team last season never did peak. The 17? They peaked in the conference tournament.

It's also what has fans torn up right now. Lost to Carolina under the freak circumstance, and will play them again without Zion.

A lot of frustration will be lifted if we beat them Saturday night.
 

LetsGoDuke301

Heisman
Apr 4, 2009
71,736
24,706
0
I am not in any way diminishing the return of Zion but if you think things miraculously get better when he comes back I think we are all going to be disappointed.
Haha. I don't ever go into the tournament assuming that Duke is going to win the championship. There are just too many variables with luck being the biggest one. But I am always disappointed when they don't. So if you are going to come back if Duke doesn't win the championship with I told you so's, that would be a waste of time.

Miraculously may not be the word I would use, undeniably, yes. Duke will be undeniably better when Zion returns. Their chances go from non existent to better than most teams automatically.

It is easy to point out struggles as if no other teams have them. Some struggles are more obvious. And the struggles I see with this team can be easily addressed during the game, not some long term concern. Of course, depending on whether or not they are at full strength. Which is the point here.
 
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dukiejay

Heisman
Mar 2, 2005
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The difference in this team vs the past 2 is easy. We've seen this bunch play really good ball, and they're scary good. The team last season never did peak. The 17? They peaked in the conference tournament.

It's also what has fans torn up right now. Lost to Carolina under the freak circumstance, and will play them again without Zion.

A lot of frustration will be lifted if we beat them Saturday night.

I won’t go round and round with you on the last two seasons....won’t get us anywhere. I responded to a post where a poster said we peaked early all but once in the last nine years. He’s wrong. His definition of peaking appears to mean one thing only. And that’s fine. It’s subjective anyway.

Your other point is obvious. Everyone is frustrated. For me, the frustration is the constant barrage of injuries. Like I said, it’s my number one concern. I’m not sure there’s a second one even in the ballpark. If we’re healthy, I’ll go to bat with this team every single time.
 
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Shatterthesky22

All-Conference
Dec 8, 2018
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We've lost one game all season at full strength, and we're 26-4 overall against the toughest schedule in the country.

The most frustrating thing about the entire season to me has been injuries. There isn't a close second.
This. I just want a healthy squad for 6 tourney games at this point. This team has proven time and again who the top dog in the country is when not missing a starter or 2 or 3. People need to calm down,.yes last night was absolutely pitiful, but it was one damn game, one damn game we still won. Just gotta get Zion back and everything will be fine. Remember guys, this is still the team that went into Charlottesville and kicked UVA 's teeth in. This is still the same team that served UK their *** to them raw. We gonna be okay.
 

sheyduke

All-American
Apr 13, 2010
13,473
8,837
108
To some it all up he might come back play one game or come back and play hopefully the remaining ten no one knows but him and if he’s ready to go or not it’s truly up to him.
 

skysdad

Heisman
Mar 3, 2006
42,753
22,653
0
I can't say he will take away our struggles but he's gonna cause our opposition to have some struggles. OFC