Econ 101: UC Berkeley forced to lay off 500 due to minimum wage hike

gamecockcat

New member
Oct 29, 2004
10,524
313
0
Shocker! UC Berkeley, undoubtedly heavily in favor of the $15 minimum wage, just announced 500 layoffs in response to the hike.

Don't they teach Economics 101 at Berkeley? Or would teaching such concepts as artificially high individual labor costs result in a loss of jobs violate 'safe space' rules and cause irreparable harm to the fragile college students?

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/justin...o-cut-500-jobs-after-15-minimum-wage-n2149066
 

Perrin75

New member
Aug 9, 2001
3,810
168
0
The only problem here is that the layoffs and budget cuts are NOT actually due to a higher minimum wage. This is just some fluff piece that is trying to link the two together. There is a linked article that states the reason for the layoffs is because they have had huge deficits for the last three years. $12 million, then $109 million and finally $150 million.

We have no idea how an increase in minimum wage effected them. My guess is that they probably had very few employees who were making minimum wage in the first place. What we do know is that it was a terribly written article that was specifically designed to pander to conservatives.
 

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
This is a complicated subject, and there has been a lot of research done on it. The question of does a min wage increase unemployment numbers is really incomplete without asking what the increase is? Is $15 too much? in rural Mississippi probably so, in Berkley Ca maybe not.

The example cited in the article is not a good one becasue a university or any type of agency that operates on a fixed budget has to react to a change like this immediately, so they probably have no other choice but to lay off workers, whereas a private sector company can comply if it chooses even if it requires raising prices. If your business requires 5 workers, it may not be feasible to operate with 4 workers so compliance is not optional.

The argument that min wage has a positive effect on the economy stems from the idea that putting more money into the pockets of low wage workers results in their spending the money and thus stimulating the economy creating more demand for products and services. Here is a statement from congressional report to the president:

"In recent years there have been important developments in the academic literature on the effect of increases in the minimum wage on employment, with the weight of evidence now showing that increases in the minimum wage have had little or no negative effect on the employment of minimum-wage workers, even during times of weakness in the labor market. Research suggests that a minimum-wage increase could have a small stimulative effect on the economy as low-wage workers spend their additional earnings, raising demand and job growth, and providing some help on the jobs front."

Another argument against large min wage increases is that it will drive automation which will replace jobs with machines and software. There is some merit to this argument but IMO this is going to be done anyway, in fact over the last decade more than 5 million jobs have been displaced by automation.

If you look beyond just the immediate effect of a few people getting laid off, what you see is a bigger picture that includes some growth but also reduction in tax payer burden. If people are being paid poverty wages, which is what many retailers and restaurants pay, then those people are eligible for public assistance for housing, SNAP etc. Walmart has been used as an example but many retailers fall into the same situation. Some studies showed as much as 40% of Walmart workers were collecting government benefits. Those benefits have to be paid by tax dollars which creates higher tax burden or more borrowing by the federal government.

So the problem isn't quite as black and white as it may seem. The Federal min wage should be based on the lowest cost of living areas, then if other higher cost areas want to establish a higher min wage then state and local governments can do so. IMO congress should just look at the current min wage and have an automatic escalation provision written into the law that would allow it to be raised by the percent of inflation. That would in essence solve the problem once and for all and not require continued debate and congressional action.
 
Last edited:

Monroe Claxton

New member
Jun 4, 2015
3,021
347
0
Bernie was in Berkley yesterday and said that he will close the budget gap by confiscating money from millionez and billionez
 

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
Why not make the min wage $50/hr? Why are we stopping at $15?

Obviously making it too high would have a very negative effect on the economy. We can also ask another hypothetical what kind of economy would we have if the min wage was $1.00? - no one could afford to buy anything and the economy would crumble.

As I mentioned above the question about minimum wage must also ask WHAT AMOUNT. There is an optimal or sweet spot on the curve where a certain min wage amount will no longer add value to the economy and start negatively effecting it. What that amount is can very from place to place. IMO $15 is too high for some places with lower costs of living but it may be close to optimal in a place like San Fran of Seattle. I personally think the Fed min wage should be around $12 not $15.
 

Double Tay

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2003
48,362
1,216
108
Obviously making it too high would have a very negative effect on the economy. We can also ask another hypothetical what kind of economy would we have if the min wage was $1.00? - no one could afford to buy anything and the economy would crumble.

As I mentioned above the question about minimum wage must also ask WHAT AMOUNT. There is an optimal or sweet spot on the curve where a certain min wage amount will no longer add value to the economy and start negatively effecting it. What that amount is can very from place to place. IMO $15 is too high for some places with lower costs of living but it may be close to optimal in a place like San Fran of Seattle. I personally think the Fed min wage should be around $12 not $15.

If min wage was at a $1, companies would not be able to staff. It's pretty simple. The free market is way better at setting wages than the government. It's always been true and always will be.
 

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
If min wage was at a $1, companies would not be able to staff.

Correct. That's my point too low of a wage is just as devastating to the economy is one that is too high. The optimal wage is somewhere between the two extremes.

The free market is way better at setting wages than the government. It's always been true and always will be.

In traditional capitalist markets, labor is viewed as a cost, no different than raw materials, energy, equipment etc. Therefore companies will act to minimize labor costs as they would any other cost. This can result to a lower than optimal wage, especially where the government is willing to pick up the slack and subsidize employee's wages with benefits. We see that right now with GDP growth only hovering around 2% instead of a tradition 3-3.5%, but when you look at the average wage it has been stagnate for the last 4 decades. When people make less disposable income, they buy fewer products and services.

Therefore government should set a minimum standard. The government is not telling employers what to pay, they are only saying if you run a business you have to pay a certain minimum amount, you decide what amount you pay for anything above that.
 

Double Tay

Well-known member
Aug 6, 2003
48,362
1,216
108
Unskilled labor is viewed as a cost, much like an order taking kiosk. Skilled labor is an asset.

The sooner people realize min wage jobs are meant to be a stepping stone to something better the less they'll worry about what the least amount of money they can make per hour is.
 

TransyCat09

New member
Feb 3, 2009
18,109
3,650
0
3% of the population currently makes the minimum wage. Why do the vast majority of jobs pay more than the minimum wage if they don't have to? Given this, if the minimum wage dropped to $1/hour, why would that drastically change the cost of labor for most employees?

Why is the above concept hard to grasp?
 

KingOfBBN

New member
Sep 14, 2013
34,437
3,278
0
If you look at the percentages of minimum wage workers, they're an absurdly small portion of the work force. According to the U.S. Labor Department, 55 percent of minimum wage workers are 16-24-years-old and 68 percent of minimum wage workers are part-time employees.

These numbers tell a huge part of the story. Minimum wage jobs are mostly kids who are learning responsibility and going to school and the other portion is people working multiple jobs.
 

Ron Mehico

New member
Jan 4, 2008
15,475
2,062
0
Average salary of a UC-Berkeley prof is $149,100. Yep, those minimum wage guys are wrecking the school budget.


I have a feeling the professors of a university the caliber of UC berkeley are rather important to the bottom dollar and probably bring in tens of millions of dollars in grants a year. If a hospital wants budget cuts I wouldn't recommend lowering the pay of the doctors either, unless you want crap doctors.
 

JHB4UK

New member
May 29, 2001
31,836
2,637
0
the simple economic concept of supply & demand lacking not only at Berkley but here also. Deee came on here & without shame thinks if the minimum wage were $1/hour, we ALL would have to accept being paid $1/hour.

here in the city of louisville the prevailing min wage is the fed rate of $7.25, but all the fast food signs around town begging for workers offering $10. which means you could be a shrewed negotiator & get 10+!
 

MegaBlue05

New member
Mar 8, 2014
10,039
2,684
0
If you look at the percentages of minimum wage workers, they're an absurdly small portion of the work force. According to the U.S. Labor Department, 55 percent of minimum wage workers are 16-24-years-old and 68 percent of minimum wage workers are part-time employees.

These numbers tell a huge part of the story. Minimum wage jobs are mostly kids who are learning responsibility and going to school and the other portion is people working multiple jobs.

Companies don't make minimum wagers full time. Corporations hate paying benefits, so you hire a guy for $7.25 and work him 36 hours a week over six days. (That was my minimum wage work experience as a college student, but replace $7.25 with $5.15)
 

Bill@ModernThirst

New member
May 12, 2014
504
67
0
36 hours/week is full-time, according to federal regulations. 34 hours and under is part time. Some states lower that to 32 or even 30 as the cutoff between part and full time.
 

Tskware

Well-known member
Jan 26, 2003
24,842
1,537
113
So the United States didn't have an economy before 1938?

Yes, and the economy just before 1938 is usually referred to as "The Great Depression"

Wasn't Henry Ford roundly despised for paying his workers $1.00 a day, by far higher wages than other industrial giants were 100 years ago? Turned out he created a market for his own products. I am not an economist but cannot believe paying people $15 per hour, especially in many markets where that is not a living wage, will wreck the economy, and also don't believe it had anything to do with Cal Berkeley's layoffs . . . just like BCTC laid off 500 or so positions in Kentucky.
 
  • Like
Reactions: We-Todd-Did

Dig Dirkler

New member
Nov 20, 2015
2,963
825
0
Yes, and the economy just before 1938 is usually referred to as "The Great Depression"
Not having a minimum wage caused the Great Depression, and creating a federal minimum wage brought us out of it? Thanks for the update Professor Keynes.
 

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
3% of the population currently makes the minimum wage.

This true but about 30% make close to the minimum wage.

Why do the vast majority of jobs pay more than the minimum wage if they don't have to? Given this, if the minimum wage dropped to $1/hour, why would that drastically change the cost of labor for most employees?

Because even if the $1 is not effective in attracting the necessary labor, it could easily force the wage to drop to $5.00. Given the choice between not eating and working for $5/hr people will choose the latter.

Salaries inter-relate to the entry level employees. ie if entry level folks at a retail store make $10/hr then a supervisor might make $12, and a department head might make $18, but if the entry level wage dropped to $6/hr then supervisors might go to $10 and department heads to $15 etc. So the min wage effects more than just those making min wage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ky8335

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
If you look at the percentages of minimum wage workers, they're an absurdly small portion of the work force. According to the U.S. Labor Department, 55 percent of minimum wage workers are 16-24-years-old and 68 percent of minimum wage workers are part-time employees.

These numbers tell a huge part of the story. Minimum wage jobs are mostly kids who are learning responsibility and going to school and the other portion is people working multiple jobs.

and for that reason I think the min wage law should have provisions for exceptions for youths of a certain age still living at home and/or working part time, since they are basically working for their spending money. That's been proposed by some in congress.
 

Deeeefense

Well-known member
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,644
4,676
113
the simple economic concept of supply & demand lacking not only at Berkley but here also. Deee came on here & without shame thinks if the minimum wage were $1/hour, we ALL would have to accept being paid $1/hour.

that's not what I said it all, I simply pointed out that extremes in the min wage $1 or $50 would be economically catastrophic and therefore would never occur in the country as we know it today. The point being wages should be somewhere between the extremes for optimal economic performance. I guess that's just over your head though.o_O
 

TransyCat09

New member
Feb 3, 2009
18,109
3,650
0
- This true but about 30% make close to the minimum wage.



Because even if the $1 is not effective in attracting the necessary labor, it could easily force the wage to drop to $5.00. Given the choice between not eating and working for $5/hr people will choose the latter.

Salaries inter-relate to the entry level employees. ie if entry level folks at a retail store make $10/hr then a supervisor might make $12, and a department head might make $18, but if the entry level wage dropped to $6/hr then supervisors might go to $10 and department heads to $15 etc. So the min wage effects more than just those making min wage.
- ~50% of people have below average income. Also, per your stats, even 50% of those "near minimum wage" are under 30 and have only a high school diploma. So, if you are relatively young, aren't skilled, and don't have an education you can expect to make $10/hour for an extended period of time? WHODA THUNK IT?!?!

- So the cost of labor goes down, but goods would remain the same price? Seems like an odd strategy. Your hypothetical is also not supported by anything but your back-of-napkin scribbling, so there is that. This is classic "third way" BS. Just cut right down the middle and it will always be the right answer, regardless. No serious thought or empirical evidence needed, just use the word "extremes" to make your position seem reasonable.
 

Dig Dirkler

New member
Nov 20, 2015
2,963
825
0
Maybe you aren't familiar with the word "inflation". What it means is the value of a dollar changes over time. In reality a $1 in 1938 is now worth $16.42. Or stated differently a dollar today would buy 6 cents worth of goods in 1938
Huh? You said lowering the minimum wage to $1/hr would cause the national economy to crumble, which is another way of saying our economy is dependent on the minimum wage. If that's true, then how did we have any economy whatsoever prior to the minimum wage simply being signed into existence?
 

Ahnan E. Muss

New member
Nov 13, 2003
2,934
274
0
You probably meant median income. But you put the "~" in your post to hedge your bets. I doubt that "~50%" of people make below the average income, unless your idea of "~" is quite large.

How's that for a weird post?
 
  • Like
Reactions: TortElvisII

starchief

New member
Feb 18, 2005
10,137
4,743
0
Companies don't make minimum wagers full time. Corporations hate paying benefits, so you hire a guy for $7.25 and work him 36 hours a week over six days. (That was my minimum wage work experience as a college student, but replace $7.25 with $5.15)

Not only do these places do this to avoid paying benefits, they give employees a scrambled schedule so they can't take a second job or take college classes. They don't have a set schedule that they can plan around. It's deliberate.
 

WildcatfaninOhio

New member
May 22, 2002
18,247
1,004
0
I'll start this put by saying that I have great amounts of faith in people. I truly believe that people will work hard to improve their situation if they are poor, and if being poor sucks! History is filled with stories of folks that worked hard to escape being poor and made something of themselves.

The problem is that government, on all levels, continues to try to find ways to make being poor not quite so sucky. If minimum wage is increased to "a living wage", then where's the incentive for unskilled, under-educated people to work to improve their own life?

Let the market dictate wages for entry level, unskilled labor. Once people figure out how bad those jobs suck they will move up and move on.
 
May 2, 2004
167,859
1,740
0
If you look at the percentages of minimum wage workers, they're an absurdly small portion of the work force. According to the U.S. Labor Department, 55 percent of minimum wage workers are 16-24-years-old and 68 percent of minimum wage workers are part-time employees.

These numbers tell a huge part of the story. Minimum wage jobs are mostly kids who are learning responsibility and going to school and the other portion is people working multiple jobs.
According to a quick google search 1.5 million workers make minimum wage and 1.8 make below minimum wage. Combined, that's 4.3% of the population.

So considering the fact that about 1% of the population are people making minimum wage ages 24 and up isn't even important, if more people make under minimum than those that make minimum wage. WTF is the point of raising it if more people are going to make less than min wage than those that make it?
 

starchief

New member
Feb 18, 2005
10,137
4,743
0
They keep the minimum wage at $7.25 to make people who make $8.50-$9 an hour feel like they've got a good job - when it would be a real struggle to get along on $10 hr..