Happy Memorial Day to all !

[iasooner1]

Many thanks to all that have served and especially to the Greatest Generation.

I watched a research documentary recently and had heard some of this but never realized how close we came to losing all to Germany in the early years of WW2 when their U-boats were camped all along our eastern shores while our efforts were primarily and understandingly focused in the Pacific.

 

[Senior Sooner]

Many thanks to all that have served and especially to the Greatest Generation.

I watched a research documentary recently and had heard some of this but never realized how close we came to losing all to Germany in the early years of WW2 when their U-boats were camped all along our eastern shores while our efforts were primarily and understandingly focused in the Pacific.

...and to YOU, Good Buddy...Nice Post!

 

[BillyRay]

When the US entered the war against Germany the fear of losing all to the Germans was gone. It was Britain that faced that very real threat. Not the US. And prayers for all the families whom have lost loved ones serving this country.

 

[iasooner1]

You tell that to the Merchant Marine and Coast Guard. They were all we had to defend the east coast. We lost millions of tons of supplies bound for Britain. Hitler declared war on us 12/8/41 but was so preoccupied with a two front war and personal use of drugs that he didn't appreciate America's ability to pivot and rebuild so quickly. We had the good fortune to pick off some key scientists that prevented Germany from building & using a nuke on us first also, otherwise I'd address you as 'herr huntin'...

 

[BillyRay]

Yes the US had a tough time on the east coast. They took heavy losses. But the US or Allies were not close to losing all. By then Britain had staved off invasion. The battle in the Atlantic had turned against Germany. Germany also had invaded Russia and was recently stopped and pushed back at Moscow. That theater would bleed Germany dry and was unwinnable. At the time I am sure it was still very precarious. But with hindsight it is easy to see the tables had turned against Germany by then.

 

[iasooner1]

We joined Britain & Russia and fought Japan at the same time. If not for that key alliance plus harassment of the Axis powers by French resistance and many others opposing totalitarianism, and without D-Day defeating the German European wall, the Soviets may have eventually defeated Hitler alone; most likely not. If not for our helping free Western Europe the Nazis would have developed a Nuke (they already had early ICBM's) and we would be living in a different world.

 

[iasooner1]

By the way, the Eastern front stalled in the snow at Stalingrad not Moscow.

Without D-Day and then Patton, Germany would have prevailed, imho
Japan would not have surrendered without getting nuked into submission.

 

[BillyRay]

The V2 was not an ICBM. If the Germans had developed a nuke it is a very long stretch to say they would have reached the technology to mount it on a V2 by wars end. The Russians most likely would defeat Germany alone. Germany was defeated even without D-Day. D-Day only made the defeat much quicker. The most important thing for defeating Germany for the US is Japan was focused on the US and the Pacific and not Russia. If Japan attacked Russia things would be very different. Russia was lucky not having to fight a two-front war. But by the time the US entered the war the tide had turned against Germany. Germany was no where close to developing a nuke by wars end. The Germans dabbled it in some. But it was never a big priority for Hitler and Germany.

 

[BillyRay]

The first major setback for the Germans on the eastern front was outside Moscow. Stalingrad was later and a much for catastrophic setback. But Moscow was the first major Russian counterattack to inflict the first setbacks on the Germans.

 

[iasooner1]

I qualified my ICBM comment by with the word "early". You have a whole lot of 'If's' in your arguments. IF Hitler wasn't such a maniac he wouldn't have turned on Stalin. IF he would have listened to his military he could have shared the world with Russia and Japan. IF a bunch of those scientists like Einstein had not have fled to the West we'd all be living in a much different type of world, if at all. Thank God for the West Point Class of 15.

I "like" your comments because I love History, even though I disagree with some of your conclusions. WW2 is fascinating, so much like the classic board game RISK. What IF America and Britain had been repelled on D-Day ? We rolled the die so damn many times... We won because we were damned pissed off and found a way to outproduce war materials and become the Giant that Japan helped create. Still, without divine intervention (many people's words much smarter than me), the RISK game could have turned out differently IF it were Only the USA & Great Britain...

Or IF Yamamoto would have sent another wave or two to Pearl he could have steamed all the way to the West coast and parked there, unabated.

 

[BillyRay]

We both are using "Ifs" in our posts since we are discussing possibilities outside of recorded history. What happened, happened. Any discussing outside of that is "what if" discussions. But I enjoy history as well and I very much enjoy discussing history. WWII is my favorite subject.

But I firmly believe if D-Day had failed, Russia would have defeated Germany on their own. Post-war Europe would have been a very different looking map if that happened.

I am reading Panzer General right now. It is a very interesting book! I also read Manstein's book. They confirm more than anything that Hitler meddling and micro-managing military affairs contributed more to the Allies winning than anything else. Hitler's stupidity cost Germany early before the Allies could turn the tide against them with sheer industrial power.

 

[OklaBama]

We both are using "Ifs" in our posts since we are discussing possibilities outside of recorded history. What happened, happened. Any discussing outside of that is "what if" discussions. But I enjoy history as well and I very much enjoy discussing history. WWII is my favorite subject.

But I firmly believe if D-Day had failed, Russia would have defeated Germany on their own. Post-war Europe would have been a very different looking map if that happened.

I am reading Panzer General right now. It is a very interesting book! I also read Manstein's book. They confirm more than anything that Hitler meddling and micro-managing military affairs contributed more to the Allies winning than anything else. Hitler's stupidity cost Germany early before the Allies could turn the tide against them with sheer industrial power.

So.....300,000 Americans died when Russia could have won the war in Europe without the USA. I wonder why CNN and MSNBC have been silent on that story? I haven't studied WW2 like you and iasooner have, but, man, that's hard to think about especially at this time of the year. This is one story I'm hoping to forget about soon.

 

[BillyRay]

I am not trying to say American's sacrificed their lives for nothing. I am very sorry if my post was taken that way Oklabama. A very sizeable number of the American's killed in the European theatre were airman during the strategic bombing campaign. Their sacrifice and missions contributed very greatly in wearing down Germany as well. I just have the opinion that D-Day itself was not critical to the eventual defeat of Germany. It did make Germany's defeat much quicker.

 

[iasooner1]

I can agree to disagree. We'll never know as that generation is leaving this life en masse daily. I have a friend who is a retired attorney that served under MacCarthur; hopefully I'll get his opinion on the subject before he passes

 

[OklaBama]

I am not trying to say American's sacrificed their lives for nothing. I am very sorry if my post was taken that way Oklabama. A very sizeable number of the American's killed in the European theatre were airman during the strategic bombing campaign. Their sacrifice and missions contributed very greatly in wearing down Germany as well. I just have the opinion that D-Day itself was not critical to the eventual defeat of Germany. It did make Germany's defeat much quicker.

Okay, I misunderstood. Interesting theory. Thanks.

 

[BillyRay]

iasooner1, yes listen to his stories before he is gone. So many great and unheard stories are passing away as our great WWII veterans are leaving this world.

 

[BillyRay]

I have to correct myself. The book I am reading now is not Panzer General it is Panzer Leader by Heinz Guderian. I also have his book Achtung-Panzer I am looking forward to reading next!

 

[iasooner1]

HH (and everyone)

While I respect your right to decline, I invite you to google: 'was d-day necessary'. I was not surprised but enlightened at the number of factors weighing on the decision.

Note: This is not meant to be some kind of personal victory; one account said that while the Soviets may have conquered the entire continent it certainly would have taken several more years and would have been by us breaking our contract with them as an ally, for starters.

 

[BillyRay]

Yes there were many factors that weighed on launching D-Day or not. I read some of the google results and as expected there is no consensus on the issue. Just many opinions. I agree it was necessary if for anything to make sure Russia did not dominate the entire continent after the war. Had the US, British and French not established a presence on the continent, then post-war Russia could have taken a stand and kept them out of Europe. D-Day for sure sped up the end of the war. But to Germany the war was lost whether D-Day happened or not. I have no doubt of that in my mind. Look into the massive losses Germany suffered on the Eastern Front up to June 44, and the fact Germany had completely lost the strategic initiative on the Eastern Front. Russia had complete control of the Eastern Front. It had turned into a battle of attrition that Germany had zero chance of winning.

 

[iasooner1]

I'm reading Battle of the Bulge, the First 24 Hours. You are correct in your statement that D-Day had to happen for the reasons you mentioned. I learned in reading this book (so far) that even though the Ruskies were taking a dreadful toll in the East, in Dec 44 they were still over 300 miles East of Germany. Also learned that while Panzer, Tiger, Panther and "King-Panther" tanks were generally more potent than our Shermans, we still outproduced them all about 4-1 plus they were slower and harder to manuever than ours.
The B of B was poorly planned by "the corporal" (Hitler) primarily and had little chance of success (after 48 hours) other than to harass our front which (in some areas) were on the fringes of Germany already. He greatly underestimated the fighting spirit of the Americans especially and had a lot of 'bad breaks' along the way, thank God because IF providence was in his favor as he thought, Patton possibly would have been correct in his assertion that we still could have lost the war.

 

[BillyRay_rivals31072]

I was on timeout last week for Memorial Day. So belated hope everyone had a great Memorial Day!! And I need to get in on this World War 2 discussion. My fav topic!!

 

[BillyRay_rivals31072]

Came across this little gem of a vid not long ago. Pretty sweet to watch the time lapse of nearly 6 years of war.

 

[BillyRay_rivals31072]

One thing about WW2 I will never understand. In 1939 when Germany invaded Poland, that was the action that led France and Great Britain to declare war on Germany. But when Russia invaded Poland from the East, why didn't France and Great Britain declare war on Russia as well??

 

[iasooner1]

Most likely GB didn't need/want any more enemies and, well France is France...

I've never researched that aspect and many French did their part. They get a bad rap

 

[BillyRay]

BillyRay, very interesting video. I very much would like to know if it is accurate or not.

 

[BillyRay]

iasooner, I remember reading many times the Germans had to capture fuel for the Battle Of The Bulge to succeed. Good thing they did not. Their tanks ran out of gas and many had to walk back to Germany during the retreat. Germany was hurting very badly for fuel at that time. And yes the German tanks were much better than the U.S. Shermans. Many Sherman veterans said as much. Like you say the U.S. had so many Shermans to overwhelm the fewer German tanks. WWII is such a vast war and so many theatres and such to talk about.

 

[BillyRay_rivals31072]

I've never researched that aspect and many French did their part. They get a bad rap

I do agree the French get a bad rap for being beaten so badly. The British had a huge force in France as well so they are just as responsible for that debacle. The German's just had a brilliant battle plan.

The French and British lost their opportunity to end the war early when Germany had the bulk of their divisions conquering Poland. Had they invaded German from the west the war would have been over rather quickly I think. Germany had next to nothing guarding their western border.

 

[WhyNotaSooner]

All I know is Thank God for my father, and uncles and the entire generation of their time. IMO, they were the most bad *** men & women of the modern day world.

D-Day, June 6th is tomorrow. Say a prayer for our nation.

 

[iasooner1]

All I know is Thank God for my father, and uncles and the entire generation of their time. IMO, they were the most bad *** men & women of the modern day world.

D-Day, June 6th is tomorrow. Say a prayer for our nation.

May be the post of our lifetime K, thanks and a big Amen !