I was just curious, some advocate changing folkstyle over to freestyle. The problem I have is I love folkstyle and freestyle. I’m curious, instead of a complete change over, could there be tweaks to folkstyle to help prepare wrestlers more for freestyle? Example, a point for pushout. Freestyle made a good change by having two point takedowns. Or should we keep them the way they are? Any thoughts?
Hypothetical question; changes to folkstyle wrestling?
- Thread starter tom_v31
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That would make things pretty interesting. That would piss some people off
I have very little interest in watching freestyle and I usually only watch the Olympics if it is an OSU wrestler. However, folkstyle rule changes that I would embrace are:
Don't stop the wrestling action just because a wrestlers hand or foot goes off the mat surface and if a wrestler grabs the edge it should be a penalty point (see Esposito against some OU clown years ago). It's a ridiculous rule as it doesn't prevent injury if they are already down on the mat. I mostly only watched OSU wrestlers during the NCAA but I lost track of the number of times this cost us points.
We are great at reversals. My wife, who has an average interest in wrestling, continually asks why a reversal is not worth 3 pts (1-escape, 2-take down). Every time she asks I say because that's the way it is. Dumb answer.
I know we are historically great at riding but maybe it would be a good thing, action wise, if after a minute riding time top man was given a point and put them on their feet unless the top man was trying to turn (ala freestyle). Of course this thought has been discussed for years.
IMO, Push-out points are dumb and just encourage the Iowa idea that just because a wrestler is pushing he is wrestling (also one of the reasons I don't really like freestyle). This style sucks! If the wrestler is trying to stand his ground (not backing up) and is pushed out, the pusher should be warned for stalling (pushing is not wrestling). I think that if all a "wrestler" does is push and never attempts a takedown, he is stalling.
The time the top wrestler has to return his opponent to the mat should be strictly enforced and the ref should immediately start a verbal count (like grabbing the leg) when the bottom man gets to his feet. And it shouldn't be time until an attempted return, it should be the time on their feet.
Even though we are good a getting near-falls, I am still not a fan of near-fall scoring as it now is. The most important thing in wrestling is the pin; going for a pin should be encouraged and rewarded. 2-count - 2 points; 4-count (or 3) - 3 points and only award the 4 points if the bottom man is in jeopardy of being pined. I love cheap tilts but I only remember one time seeing a wrestler pinned from a cheap tilt; that was by Jordan Oliver and you could see that his opponent was almost pinned before he was.
Don't stop the wrestling action just because a wrestlers hand or foot goes off the mat surface and if a wrestler grabs the edge it should be a penalty point (see Esposito against some OU clown years ago). It's a ridiculous rule as it doesn't prevent injury if they are already down on the mat. I mostly only watched OSU wrestlers during the NCAA but I lost track of the number of times this cost us points.
We are great at reversals. My wife, who has an average interest in wrestling, continually asks why a reversal is not worth 3 pts (1-escape, 2-take down). Every time she asks I say because that's the way it is. Dumb answer.
I know we are historically great at riding but maybe it would be a good thing, action wise, if after a minute riding time top man was given a point and put them on their feet unless the top man was trying to turn (ala freestyle). Of course this thought has been discussed for years.
IMO, Push-out points are dumb and just encourage the Iowa idea that just because a wrestler is pushing he is wrestling (also one of the reasons I don't really like freestyle). This style sucks! If the wrestler is trying to stand his ground (not backing up) and is pushed out, the pusher should be warned for stalling (pushing is not wrestling). I think that if all a "wrestler" does is push and never attempts a takedown, he is stalling.
The time the top wrestler has to return his opponent to the mat should be strictly enforced and the ref should immediately start a verbal count (like grabbing the leg) when the bottom man gets to his feet. And it shouldn't be time until an attempted return, it should be the time on their feet.
Even though we are good a getting near-falls, I am still not a fan of near-fall scoring as it now is. The most important thing in wrestling is the pin; going for a pin should be encouraged and rewarded. 2-count - 2 points; 4-count (or 3) - 3 points and only award the 4 points if the bottom man is in jeopardy of being pined. I love cheap tilts but I only remember one time seeing a wrestler pinned from a cheap tilt; that was by Jordan Oliver and you could see that his opponent was almost pinned before he was.
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Should cap riding time duration at any time to one minute, put them back on their feet and no escape point, let riding time accumulate the same way and net out at end of match.
I disagree. I can't think of the number of times that our opponent has stalled their asses off for five or six minutes and we get hit for stalling at the end. Stalling is the same no mater when it happens. I believe that if stalling was called more consistently (not necessarily more) there would be less stalling. Real life example; a town with one stop light placed cameras to record and fine red-light running. Overnight, they nearly vanished (along with the accidents).
Good topic. Around 7 years ago, Gabe Dean was a force in folkstyle, but just starting out in freestyle. I heard him say something that Kyle Dake told him - folkstyle is about controlling your opponent, freestyle is about controlling the mat. That always stood out to me. And Dake said that years before the stepout rule.
If the goal is to better align folk with free, I think the 2 suggestions above would help - implementing the stepout and bringing guys back up to their feet. Maybe the second one could be done after 30 seconds rather than a minute?
If the goal is to better align folk with free, I think the 2 suggestions above would help - implementing the stepout and bringing guys back up to their feet. Maybe the second one could be done after 30 seconds rather than a minute?
Why? I hate when a kid who pushes the action for the entire match is called for stalling because the other kid decides to engage with 30 second lefts. Nothing about the last 15 seconds of a match should be any different than another point of the match.
I love the comments on this. Making the match more exciting to the crowd is a big part of what rule changes should be about as well as protecting knees and shoulders from injury. Riding is boring to watch, unless there is a chance for a pin or points being scored. Put them back on their feet. Also making a match about endurance makes for boring matches or something that just gets our of hand. I like the idea of putting wrestlers back on their feet after a 30 second period, unless a pinning combination is in place.
watching AJ draped over the side or RBY hooking Dayton’s leg for two minutes is well within the rules but not exciting
I can see the issue about a “pushing match” but the refs have problems calling stalling consistently. When I wrestled, there was this one guy that would keep his heals on the out of bounds line and every time I initiated action, we would go out of bounds. He never got hit for stalling
I agree with this kind of change except I would move the riding time cap at 2 minutes. That allows some riding with a chance to get tilts or pins and it allows escapes to occur. After 2 minutes is hit, take them back to their feet and if the aggressive wrestler gets another take down, he gets 2 points and they go to their feet with no 1 point awarded for release. This allows superior wrestlers to get their tech falls quicker than the current 2 for 1 crap.
Good wrestlers can be taken down and get escapes quickly and this shouldn’t be taken away from them.
On the riding stuff they could just start enforcing the rules as written also. That would probably be the easiest fix.
Not as boring as two guys dancing around for 6:45 seconds hoping to take the last shot or wrestlers who do nothing but push and shove trying to get stalling called on the other.
There isn’t a perfect answer to any suggestions but it drives me crazy when somebody has 3-5 minutes of riding time. They are doing a different version of the push and shove stall.
There isn’t a perfect answer to any suggestions but it drives me crazy when somebody has 3-5 minutes of riding time. They are doing a different version of the push and shove stall.
First take down worth 3 points.
First take down gets choice of position in 2nd period.
No take down, both start neutral in the 2nd.
Reverse worth 2.5 points.
No riding time point unless back points earned.
No take downs in the first, wrestler with most shots earns a point.
Tired of watching no scoring in the first period
First take down gets choice of position in 2nd period.
No take down, both start neutral in the 2nd.
Reverse worth 2.5 points.
No riding time point unless back points earned.
No take downs in the first, wrestler with most shots earns a point.
Tired of watching no scoring in the first period
!ike most. On 3rd I'd still flip for top bottom choice. Regarding 6, no way to determine "most shots" its too subjective and would encourage fake half shots.
What if after a minute of riding you gave the guy on bottom the option....
1. Stand up(neutral) - no escape pt
2. Back on bottom for another minute with a chance to earn an escape pt
1. Stand up(neutral) - no escape pt
2. Back on bottom for another minute with a chance to earn an escape pt
Some really good discussion here. Wrestling has morphed into a scramble fest and boring rideouts.
My picks!
First TD is 3
Reversal is 3
Choice after 1 minute RT. No point or fight for the point. Might even move this to 30 seconds?
No RT points without NF.
I would also like to see Penn State penalized 1 point each match just because.
My picks!
First TD is 3
Reversal is 3
Choice after 1 minute RT. No point or fight for the point. Might even move this to 30 seconds?
No RT points without NF.
I would also like to see Penn State penalized 1 point each match just because.
I amend this resolution by adding, “and Iowa”.
Haha, I didn't include them because they cry like little babies and they wouldn't count our titles!
I would have to think about that one.Late to the party here, but I've been mulling this over since starting to follow freestyle wrestling a couple years ago. Freestyle is quite fun to watch - more action, shorter matches, more accessible ways to score, more motivation to be an offensive vs a defensive wrestler. However it isn't perfect - there's not enough riding. But maybe folkstyle has too much riding. I think you could have a really cool hybrid style. Let guys wrestle in shorts and without headgear, similar to freestyle. Maybe 2 stall calls on the bottom guy gives the top guy a point and puts them back on their feet; likewise, 2 stall calls on the top guy gives the bottom guy a point and puts them back on their feet. Give one point for greater than 45 degree exposure.
What's clear to me is that stalling calls need to be more consistent. I like how freestyle has several refs - this could be a fix here. As far as a push-out point, folkstyle nearly has that with the new stall calls on the edge of the mat but again, this is wildly inconsistent and the criteria for the call is weird - push a guy out and it's stalling against the offensive guy? But "stop wrestling" at the edge of the mat and it's stalling against the passive guy? Pretend to take a shot or circle and it's not stalling? It's murky as heck. I think if you just made it a clear-cut "step out and your opponent gets a point or a stall call", it clears up all the murkiness around the edge-of-mat stall calls. Yes, you may get a little more Iowa-style pushing, but I don't think I care about this... it's another way to score points and when I watch freestyle, I don't see guys only pushing the whole time because that approach opens the pusher up to all kinds of counter-based takedowns by the guy getting pushed. Freestyle has it's own murkiness for sure with the shot clock, not a huge fan of this but again as a newish viewer maybe I haven't gotten the hang of it yet.
Folkstyle is about talent and endurance. Freestyle is more about just talent. Are you better than your opponent? Prove it right here, right now. Folkstyle requires you also to outlast your opponent... which has it's own benefits and philosophy and whatnot but as a 30 year fan of folkstyle wrestling, I'll gladly admit that I get bored in a lot of folkstyle matches. No wonder it's hard to get new fans interested when many matches consist of primarily collar ties, weak attempts at pinning, and far too few stalling or stalemate calls. There's frankly not a lot of procedural motivation for guys not to save their gas tank for the end of the match or the end of the period. And I get it from a conditioning standpoint - no way could I go out there and go hard for a full match. But maybe the periods are too long. I do like the three period setup of folkstyle... maybe the periods could each be reduced by 1 minute or something combined with more mechanisms to break up slow riding action as I mentioned above.
Also, folkstyle overtime is weird. I'd be thrilled if they did a couple of sudden victory minute periods and then got rid of the ride-outs. Replace the ride-outs with criteria victory based on shots taken, stall calls, things like that. Lots of combat-based sports use criteria to award victories.
What's clear to me is that stalling calls need to be more consistent. I like how freestyle has several refs - this could be a fix here. As far as a push-out point, folkstyle nearly has that with the new stall calls on the edge of the mat but again, this is wildly inconsistent and the criteria for the call is weird - push a guy out and it's stalling against the offensive guy? But "stop wrestling" at the edge of the mat and it's stalling against the passive guy? Pretend to take a shot or circle and it's not stalling? It's murky as heck. I think if you just made it a clear-cut "step out and your opponent gets a point or a stall call", it clears up all the murkiness around the edge-of-mat stall calls. Yes, you may get a little more Iowa-style pushing, but I don't think I care about this... it's another way to score points and when I watch freestyle, I don't see guys only pushing the whole time because that approach opens the pusher up to all kinds of counter-based takedowns by the guy getting pushed. Freestyle has it's own murkiness for sure with the shot clock, not a huge fan of this but again as a newish viewer maybe I haven't gotten the hang of it yet.
Folkstyle is about talent and endurance. Freestyle is more about just talent. Are you better than your opponent? Prove it right here, right now. Folkstyle requires you also to outlast your opponent... which has it's own benefits and philosophy and whatnot but as a 30 year fan of folkstyle wrestling, I'll gladly admit that I get bored in a lot of folkstyle matches. No wonder it's hard to get new fans interested when many matches consist of primarily collar ties, weak attempts at pinning, and far too few stalling or stalemate calls. There's frankly not a lot of procedural motivation for guys not to save their gas tank for the end of the match or the end of the period. And I get it from a conditioning standpoint - no way could I go out there and go hard for a full match. But maybe the periods are too long. I do like the three period setup of folkstyle... maybe the periods could each be reduced by 1 minute or something combined with more mechanisms to break up slow riding action as I mentioned above.
Also, folkstyle overtime is weird. I'd be thrilled if they did a couple of sudden victory minute periods and then got rid of the ride-outs. Replace the ride-outs with criteria victory based on shots taken, stall calls, things like that. Lots of combat-based sports use criteria to award victories.