It appears that this year's recruiting class ranks somewhere around 10th in the SEC. I certainly commend Coach Stoops and his staff on the improvements that have been made on the recruiting trail and I hate to be negative but this is simply not good enough. I don't want to be at the bottom of the SEC. I want to compete with the top teams. A recruiting class that is truly 10th in the league is simply not good enough. It has to improve or UK will continue to flounder.
Is recruiting still not good enough?
- Thread starter kentuckyrld
- Start date
I think you're going to get blasted for your comments. I know we're up against it since we play in the SEC but our overall recruiting is about the best it's ever been and thinking we'll compete with Alabama, Florida, LSU, Ga etc is only wishful thinking. I get your point but we're not going to get the elite recruits like the other schools do.
Doubt UK can do any better until it starts playing winning football and overachieving on the field.
I have posted this on several different threads. The slogan is recruit and develop well its time for the development. Each player has to improve from year to year and even from beginning of season to the end of season.
Football isn't like basketball, in that one guy can change around 60 years of negative tradition. First you get good enough players to pull off a few upsets and get into a minor bowl. Then hopefully you build to where you can get to an even SEC record, then get a little better bowl. To expect to finish in the top 5 of the SEC in recruiting coming off the last six seasons we've had is unrealistic. This class exceeds reasonable expectations, and we should be happy with it. I expect to see better player development than we have seen the last few years, however.
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I suspect you are 100% correct. However, I wonder how long it takes to develop talent and start winning. We have seen a lot of new players over the last three years and so far, the winning part is no better and I have a terrible fear that next season will be one of the worst we have seen which is really saying something. I am beginning to feel a little uncomfortable about the ability of this coaching regime to develop players.
Winning breeds winning IMO. There was more than enough talent to win 8 games last year (UF, Vandy, UL, etc.). But there were other things than talent that cost UK. So we can continue to add more talent, but that talent has to jell into a team with the right attitude and mentality.
They were 10th in the SEC and 34th overall. Personally, I thought it was going to be a higher overall number, but relatively speaking when you compare to the overall rankings, we are not that many spots below other middle of the pack SEC schools. Arky was 25, USC 26, Miss. St. 31. It's not like they days we were in the 50's. At this point, it's about finding the right player to the system, coaching them up and keeping them. There are quite a few teams ranked below ours that have done well, and well against SEC teams.
As a side note, I was looking at 247Sports, guess who was 247Sports recruiter of the year? None other than UK's previous coach, Tee Martin. Granted he's at Southern Cal, but I think that shows the difference between recruiting at a place like Southern Cal and Kentucky, and what a great job this staff has been doing.
As a side note, I was looking at 247Sports, guess who was 247Sports recruiter of the year? None other than UK's previous coach, Tee Martin. Granted he's at Southern Cal, but I think that shows the difference between recruiting at a place like Southern Cal and Kentucky, and what a great job this staff has been doing.
UK arguably out recruited UL, Vandy, Mizzou & Miss ST. Basically they were about the same level as South Carolina. If you go off of recruiting alone, UK probably recruited a 7-5 or maybe an 8-4 class.
That said, some of UK's recruits were likely undervalued. TJ Carter, D Robinson, L Fortner, J Watson, J Cross, Z Hughes, S Johnson & N Pringle are a few that come to mind. T Gilliam is probably as good as D West (or better) & West was a 4 star. K Daniel & D Jackson are also probably better than where Rivals ranked them. 247 has both of them in the top 100, Rivals has neither in the top 250. So this class could have easily finished in the top 15 - top 20, if a handful of those players had gotten a bump.
Irregardless, UK upgraded some positions, increased depth & filled some vital needs. That is all that you can ask for. This may end up being the best class that Stoops has signed. That is a positive.
That said, some of UK's recruits were likely undervalued. TJ Carter, D Robinson, L Fortner, J Watson, J Cross, Z Hughes, S Johnson & N Pringle are a few that come to mind. T Gilliam is probably as good as D West (or better) & West was a 4 star. K Daniel & D Jackson are also probably better than where Rivals ranked them. 247 has both of them in the top 100, Rivals has neither in the top 250. So this class could have easily finished in the top 15 - top 20, if a handful of those players had gotten a bump.
Irregardless, UK upgraded some positions, increased depth & filled some vital needs. That is all that you can ask for. This may end up being the best class that Stoops has signed. That is a positive.
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what is this "we" stuff, got a rat in your pocket?
any UK fan with any longevity has lived through some horrible football seasons. going 2-10 where we raise the white flag of surrender in the 3rd quarter at Arkansas was only a few years ago. Even with the disappointments of the last 2 seasons the performance has been a far cry better than the worst dished out by gridiron Cats since 1990.
I think the biggest problem in this thread is assuming that recruiting rankings are the end-all be-all measurement of success or potential.
Your point is well taken but questioning / doubting the coaching staff is totally valid. I'm glad CMS is now in year four. His recruiting has been excellent- much better than we could have expected and his supporters have lobbied for the fans to give him time to get all of his guys in place. If we don't get over the 5-7 hump this year with a brighter future next year I think it's fair to reason that Stoops may not cut it.
"terrible fear" & "uncomfortable"
Kentucky Football may not be for you......... chill... enjoy....
Or just stress out like a mofo
We marveled at Stoops ability to hold together and add to that first class given the short amount of time he had, but it did not compare to the next 3. His first real class was his second as UK's coach. Those guys were sophs and RS frosh this past year. Stoops's best class before this current one was his 3rd. Those players were true freshmen this past year. Before he can develop multiple classes, they have to be on campus for a while.
His NFL guys have been Jucos and a couple of carry overs from the last staff that have developed under the current staff.
Development of football players does not happen in one or two years.
His NFL guys have been Jucos and a couple of carry overs from the last staff that have developed under the current staff.
Development of football players does not happen in one or two years.
I agree. We have to find a win with what we get. That's why I've always favored a "gimmicky" offense with a running QB that moves the chains. We can't grind it out against SEC teams that are recruiting HS All Americans on defense. We have to do something to score more points than they opposition.
Haven't really seen your name over here. I'm going to assume you're primarily a basketball fan. Right? Either that or you don't typically follow college football recruiting.
Not simply good enough to do what? You think we're gonna wake up tomorrow and be Alabama? Our recruiting is what it is, and its better than its been under any other coach in the last 3 decades. Are we going to challenge the top end of the SEC this year? No, we likely will not be in the SEC title race but its getting closer. Not long ago we were the bottom of the SEC in recruiting. Before you get to 10 wins you gotta start getting 7 and 8.
We need to win. He's doing this with losing over half his games for 3 years. I would imagine when he starts having bowl eligible records the recruiting will become even better.
^ This right here. If this staff can recruit this way with a 5-7 record they will absolutely kill it if we start going to bowl games. They have an excellent strategy for the way they recruit. And by they I have to assume it's mostly Stoops and Marrow since they're the only real constants since day one. We start winning football games I have to believe they will eventually get the talent on campus to compete for at the very least the top spot in the east.
WE could be top 15 in the country and only be mid pack in the SEC,this is a tough place to play football and be average.We have to get to where we can beat the Missouris and Vandys of the world on a regular basis to get to the point that we have a punchers chance with the next level of teams in the SEC
How Doyle think that's going to happen? You have to recruit better, develop and win more. The problem is you can't do it. All in a couple years. You can talk about high expectations if it makes you feel good, but if you're smart you'll look at reality. Three years simply isn't enough time turn a program around. I see you don't want acknowledge it, but the performance has improved, U.K. better than it was when he got here.
Everyone claimed 5 wins and the class would break apart, it didn't. He has upgraded the roster and the coaching staff this offseason. Now they need to get to six wins next year and improve recruiting again, then slowly keep increasing in increments to get to where we want to be. It is a process that takes time.
Agreed. It's a slow crawl to the top or even near the top. The ship is pointed in the right direction, we just need a push and a little luck. This conference is HARD to succeed in and even harder to be consistent. Sure there's ups and downs for most of the top and middle level SEC teams but even the those teams compete at a high national title contender level. Elite
Is the only way to discribe SEC footbalL.
Is the only way to discribe SEC footbalL.
We are really only recruiting against the East teams and MSU. We only play one other west team in a rotation. So if we can recruit at or above MSU, Vandy, Mizzou and USC we'll be just fine.
By all accounts, recruiting has been much improved in the Stoops era. And yet, the win-loss record and competitiveness in most of our losses in the Stoops era have not approached that of the Brooks era, where recruiting on paper was far below that of the Stoops era. So, what is lacking??
IMHO, there are four areas where we need significant improvement for the improved recruiting to lead to success on the field:
(1) Significant improvement across all positions in football fundamentals.
I realize Coach Stoops inherited a weak team in terms of fundamentals and fundamentals have been a problem at UK for a long time. Unfortunately, I have seen very little improvement year-to-year in fundamentals during the Stoops era.
(2) Players need to be much more physical.
For all of the talk about getting better recruits and getting "bigger stronger faster", improvement in this area has been spotty at best.
(3) Coaches need to demonstrate marked improvement in managing the game.
The Chinese fire drills in moving players on and off the field, especially for special teams, must be eliminated. Positive half-time adjustments have been rare during the Stoops era. Such adjustments must become the rule not the exception. Clock management must get considerably better.
(4) Overall improvement game-by-game as the season progresses.
Sure the second half of the schedules in the Stoops era have been tougher. But there is absolutely no excuse for the total collapses we have seen. To quote a statement that has probably been around since the inception of football--"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!"
Improve in these areas and the wins will follow. Continue what we've seen thus far in the Stoops era and we are in for more disappointing seasons.
(Note: Before someone points it out, most of this post was copied from one of my posts in another thread. However, I believe it is appropriate here.)
What many posters overlook is that, as noted in a post above, recruiting is not the "be all, end all" of a successful program. It is simply a good first step. It also takes player development and on-field-coaching acumen to have a successful FB program. IMHO, to-date both of these factors have been noticeably absent in the Stoops era.
IMHO, there are four areas where we need significant improvement for the improved recruiting to lead to success on the field:
(1) Significant improvement across all positions in football fundamentals.
I realize Coach Stoops inherited a weak team in terms of fundamentals and fundamentals have been a problem at UK for a long time. Unfortunately, I have seen very little improvement year-to-year in fundamentals during the Stoops era.
(2) Players need to be much more physical.
For all of the talk about getting better recruits and getting "bigger stronger faster", improvement in this area has been spotty at best.
(3) Coaches need to demonstrate marked improvement in managing the game.
The Chinese fire drills in moving players on and off the field, especially for special teams, must be eliminated. Positive half-time adjustments have been rare during the Stoops era. Such adjustments must become the rule not the exception. Clock management must get considerably better.
(4) Overall improvement game-by-game as the season progresses.
Sure the second half of the schedules in the Stoops era have been tougher. But there is absolutely no excuse for the total collapses we have seen. To quote a statement that has probably been around since the inception of football--"When the going gets tough, the tough get going!"
Improve in these areas and the wins will follow. Continue what we've seen thus far in the Stoops era and we are in for more disappointing seasons.
(Note: Before someone points it out, most of this post was copied from one of my posts in another thread. However, I believe it is appropriate here.)
What many posters overlook is that, as noted in a post above, recruiting is not the "be all, end all" of a successful program. It is simply a good first step. It also takes player development and on-field-coaching acumen to have a successful FB program. IMHO, to-date both of these factors have been noticeably absent in the Stoops era.
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OP, refer to the thread "Recruiting basics". It's a long read but I think it may help explain how we can compete.
That being said, you are right. You always want to be better. And I'm sure the staff feels the same way. As I also feel that they are making effort to do just that.
That being said, you are right. You always want to be better. And I'm sure the staff feels the same way. As I also feel that they are making effort to do just that.
I was looking at the 247Sports rankings, it seems the different services have them all in the same general area though.
My view is a bit more simple. I believe last year was a severe learning and growing experience for the players and the coaches. First and worst, Coach Stoops did not have the right Offensive Coordinator and we suffered all season. - And this had a lot to do with the in-game management. Gran and offensive staff should make a huge difference.
And second, we were transitioning to a defensive scheme that did not have the depth of skills needed for the SEC. I feel that we will see an improved defensive backs, linebackers, defensive ends and hopefully a solid defensive line.
I also feel that we will see a big improvement in special teams. - Players and coaching.
Go Cats!
And second, we were transitioning to a defensive scheme that did not have the depth of skills needed for the SEC. I feel that we will see an improved defensive backs, linebackers, defensive ends and hopefully a solid defensive line.
I also feel that we will see a big improvement in special teams. - Players and coaching.
Go Cats!
But you recruit against your competition. Who cares what schools that you don't play against do in recruiting when you're not competing for National Championships. This is our competition EVERY year:
Louisville
OOC 2
OOC 3
OOC 4
Georgia
Florida
Tennessee
Missouri
South Carolina
Vanderbilt
Mississippi State
SEC West Rotating Opponent
I am basing this conversation strictly on recruiting. If you look at the last 4 recruiting classes (UK's average class ranking was 27.75 based on Rivals), here is where we stand on bringing in HS/JUCO talent against these teams:
Teams that are CLEARLY more talented than us:
Georgia - 8.75 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Tennessee - 11.5 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Florida - 12.25 average class ranking over last 4 classes
SEC West Rotating Opponent
Teams that are more talented, but not overwhelming:
South Carolina - 19.25 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Teams that have a very similar talent level:
Mississippi State - 28 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Teams we are more talented than:
Missouri - 38.5 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Louisville - 40.25 average class ranking over last 4 classes
Vanderbilt - 44 average class ranking over last 4 classes
OOC 2
OOC 3
OOC 4
I understand this all comes down to coaching, but in the talent (as it is related to high school rankings), we should be better, or very similar, talent wise, as 8 teams on our schedule. We don't play LSU, Auburn, Ole Miss, TAMU and Bama in the same year, so who cares if all 5 of those teams have better talent than us, we only play 1 of them a year.
We are IMO never going to recruit with Bama,AubLsu,ect. And forget about the star system its about can tbe coaches find the 2/3 star Woodyards,Tamme,Cobbs of the world. The question is can this staff evaluate and develop talent?. Can they recruit an SEC level offensive and defensive line. We are going to have no chance to win in the SEC unless the trenches are stocked up with people that can play in the SEC.
If we can get any offensive production this season our defense will be better by default. Our defense played well enough at times that we should have won, but the offense just couldn't get out of their own way. I have faith in the new offensive coaching staff that they will take that stride this season and put up some points and actually sustain some drives instead of 3 and out all the time.