I had Mr. Earl give me the details and three things that he said that stood out to me. He did not rule out Kyle Crutchmer wrestling at the Big 12. He said it was in the realm of possibility. On a side note, Kyle along with his teammates was at the services today in Stillwater. He was sans crutches and boot and he was walking normally. This does not mean he is ready to wrestle. The longest hug I saw Chandler exchange was with Kyle and very emotional. #E2 John indicated that they were very lucky with Joe's health problem whatever it is. He said they type of problem usually takes 3-4 months to go away but they got on it early and with best doctors and he is now 85% and he will be wrestling in KC. #3 John indicated some disgust or disappointment with the 184 pound match at Penn State. He indicated that Matt McCutcheon has injury defaulted in 6 matches this year all of which he is losing. John indicated and most people I talked to and me all felt it was fixing to get a lot worse for McCutcheon before he defaulted. Nolan was just working up a head of steam when he defaulted. According to John McCutcheon does not sustain a loss on his record and Nolan does not get credited for a win. This is BS in my opinion. I thought if you stepped on the mat and wrestled and then defaulted it was a loss for you and a win for the opponent. I guess I am wrong in this assumption but it should not be that way.
John's Radio show last night
- Thread starter oberebo
- Start date
Good to hear about Crutchmer and Smith. the part about McCutcheon is sure to start some discussion.
I would never say that someone was faking an injury in wrestling. Oh wait a second, I used to fake injuries when I was wrestling.
I guess I would never accuse a division one wrestler on the mat that has had a previously injured knee of faking. John can do that, but I am not walking on McCutcheon's knee nor will I have to when he is 60 years old.
Glad to hear that Crutchmer and Smith could be back. My feeling is that if Crutchmer is well he has a better chance of an AA than Rogers. Rogers just appears to be too small for 174, but I am not in the room to know.
I guess I would never accuse a division one wrestler on the mat that has had a previously injured knee of faking. John can do that, but I am not walking on McCutcheon's knee nor will I have to when he is 60 years old.
Glad to hear that Crutchmer and Smith could be back. My feeling is that if Crutchmer is well he has a better chance of an AA than Rogers. Rogers just appears to be too small for 174, but I am not in the room to know.
John was not accusing McCutcheon of faking the injury. Obviously, he has had ongoing knee problems but his disgust lies in the fact that he goes out there if he is not ready to wrestle and when it is re-injured he defaults wigth no penalty to himself and no credit to the opposing wrestler. Whether he has a legit injury is really not the issue. The fact that he was losing in each instance does give pause to wonder but as you say I nor you is walking around on that knee.
Well, that would be an incredibly dumb thing for Smith to say. I hope to hell your coach knows a little bit more about the sport than that.
First, McCutcheon has injury defaulted in exactly two matches this year (vs. Boyd and vs. Koepke of Illinois). You can look for yourself here: http://intermatwrestle.com/rankings/wrestler/264298013
Second, he absolutely takes a loss for both of those. His record on the year is 14-4. The two default losses, a 6-0 loss to Nate Brown and a 6-4 SV loss in the Nittany Lion Open to Macchiavello of NC State.
He medically forfeited out of the Southern Scuffle. His last match of that tournament was a 5-4 win over Macchiavello (same guy he lost to before). After that, he forfeited out of the tournament without taking the mat again, so he suffered no more losses there.
Here's that match against Koepke: Does that really look like he was just trying to avoid a loss? That match was tied at the time of the injury, and he gave up a takedown in the process of getting injured. Does anyone actually think Cael Sanderson would promote or tolerate that from one of his wrestlers?
If Smith said what you claim he said, then what he said was factually inaccurate in at least 2 ways and also incredibly asinine.
First, McCutcheon has injury defaulted in exactly two matches this year (vs. Boyd and vs. Koepke of Illinois). You can look for yourself here: http://intermatwrestle.com/rankings/wrestler/264298013
Second, he absolutely takes a loss for both of those. His record on the year is 14-4. The two default losses, a 6-0 loss to Nate Brown and a 6-4 SV loss in the Nittany Lion Open to Macchiavello of NC State.
He medically forfeited out of the Southern Scuffle. His last match of that tournament was a 5-4 win over Macchiavello (same guy he lost to before). After that, he forfeited out of the tournament without taking the mat again, so he suffered no more losses there.
Here's that match against Koepke: Does that really look like he was just trying to avoid a loss? That match was tied at the time of the injury, and he gave up a takedown in the process of getting injured. Does anyone actually think Cael Sanderson would promote or tolerate that from one of his wrestlers?
If Smith said what you claim he said, then what he said was factually inaccurate in at least 2 ways and also incredibly asinine.
I am not sure if the injury defaults count against him or for the others, but referencing intermat for your proof is ridiculous!
Lol. What? Ridiculous? That's every match he's wrestled this season.
How about this quote from the Oklahoma State recap of the dual (http://www.okstate.com/news/2016/2/21/WREST_0221162317.aspx?path=wrestling):
Twelfth-ranked Nolan Boyd closed the gap, keeping the dual in reach for the Pokes as he recorded his third win over a top-10 opponent.Boyd trailed No. 6 Matt McCutcheon, 3-1, after the first period. He took the lead in the second period with an escape and a takedown, but the bout was ended early as McCutcheon injury defaulted due to a knee injury.
They think it counts as a win for Boyd.
How about TOM rankings, which have him listed at 14-4:
http://news.theopenmat.com/2016/02/...-college-wrestling-rankings-february-23-2016/
How about WrestleStat, which keeps meticulous records:
http://www.wrestlestats.com/wrestler/profile/12572/mccutcheon-matt
If none of those satisfy you, how about page 19 of the NCAA Wrestling Rulebook, which states:
A default is awarded in a match when one of the wrestlers is unable to continue due to an injury or by choice of his or her coach. A default shall be included as a win or loss in each wrestler’s individual season record. (See Rules 3.17.4, 6.1.7 and 9.8.2.)
Good lord. You've either got a poster on this forum or your head coach literally just making stuff up here, and I rebutted their made up claims with actual facts, and was the only one to provide any kind of supporting evidence, and you call me ridiculous? The OP posted some BS about him injury defaulting 6 times and it not counting as a loss, both of which are dead wrong, with no supporting evidence whatsoever. That's ridiculous.
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Clearly a victory for Boyd and a loss for McCuetcheon. I think the comment is related to potential seeding as Boyd will not get credit in the same was as if he finished the match. I do wonder in McCutcheon wrestles if the dual is close or we are ahead in the dual at the time of the match.
Spin it however you want, the "comment", as stated, was flat out wrong in multiple ways.
Hehe...or the old contact fell out of my eye. That was always good for a 20 second blow
None of the ranking services mean a thing. The team recap means less. The rulebook reference has legs, but does it apply to seedings when it comes to conference and national tournaments. What reporters write and what rankers use has no value in this. The OP is a straight up dude who was passing along something a friend told him some one else said. I think there is some room for error. There was an FRL last year when they had one of the seeding committee members on it and I remember it not being as clear cut as you would think. I believe the point being conveyed by the coach is it was unfortunate that a match he thought his guy would win ended in a default and that it won't help him in seedling as much as a win would. Who cares how many times he defaulted? The point is he probably should not have been out there and unfortunately for the young man he might have trouble finishing the important upcoming tournaments.
You keep moving the goalposts. What you just said and what the OP just said are worlds apart. He said John expressed "disgust". Then, the things he cited as the source of that "disgust" were factually incorrect. If OP meant it might have a minor affect on seeding, he should have said that. Not "it doesn't count as a loss", as he did say. If the point was that it might affect seeding, then there is nothing to be "disgusted" about.
The intent of the original post was clearly that Boyd somehow got screwed over by McCutcheon choosing not to wrestle so that he didn't take a loss, and further that he's done that a half a dozen times this season. Literally all of that is factually incorrect. 100% of it. So don't be surprised that someone chimed in to correct it. You were even the one that said this should "generate some discussion." Well, I'm here to discuss it, and everything OP was wrong.
It's fair for a coach to say, "I wish the match would have continued, I think my guy would have won, and it would have been a nice win for his resume." It's a totally different thing to say that a wrestler injury defaulted three times as many times as he actually has, that he was losing in each of those times (thus insinuating that he was trying to avoid losses by doing so), and claiming that injury defaults don't count as losses. All three of those things are wrong. For the record, I am sure that what Coach Smith said was more along the lines of what you've articulated, and not what OPs message stated and insinuated.
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Amalone? Holy crap dude chill out. First of all keep the OP out of it, he said he thought it was a loss, he said in his opinion it was BS. The thing you seem to be hung up on is the 6 defaults. Does he have some MFFs? Could the total of those plus the IDs be six? Is the default going to affect him as much as a loss? Is the default going to help Boyd as much as a win? The OP also used disappointed with disgust. You are probably right, some of it is wrong. Remember that telephone game where everyone whispers in each others ear and by the time it gets to the end it's completely different. Think that. For some odd reason I think Coach Smith trumps you in this here wrestling thing. You say all of its factually incorrect, but did Boyd not possibly get screwed? BTW, I don't think the OP had any intent other than relaying what he heard.
More PSU folks nitpicking comments without regard to tone or reading comprehension. I know you can't convey tone in a typed comment very easily, but come on guy...give it a rest.
John Smith did not, or isn't dumb enough to call a kid out in this manner. The op is saying he expressed an emotion that was unfavorable about the default because it has a no positive effect on his Wrestler....or not much positive.
The op did say 6 defaults where that doesn't appear to be accurate.
John Smith did not, or isn't dumb enough to call a kid out in this manner. The op is saying he expressed an emotion that was unfavorable about the default because it has a no positive effect on his Wrestler....or not much positive.
The op did say 6 defaults where that doesn't appear to be accurate.
I think everyone knows who wins this match if they square off in MSG. And this time we will gladly take the injury default if he chooses to quit.
Wow. What a high end, intellectually rationalized thread.
I doubt very much Smith said anything about being disgusted, or that Mac had 6 injury defaults, or that they do not count on anybody's record.
I do think some time between where Smith said something and it got told here some really not so well informed people added/subtracted more than just a few words.
What just amazes me is folks who follow wrestling to the level that they participate on a wrestling message board didn't immediately realize the plain incorrectness of some of the statements.
I doubt very much Smith said anything about being disgusted, or that Mac had 6 injury defaults, or that they do not count on anybody's record.
I do think some time between where Smith said something and it got told here some really not so well informed people added/subtracted more than just a few words.
What just amazes me is folks who follow wrestling to the level that they participate on a wrestling message board didn't immediately realize the plain incorrectness of some of the statements.
I'm not so sure, yeah he is giving up some size as I don't think that he is a true 174, but he has put the hurt on some upper ranked kids this year. I think Rogers has been tested, beat Ramos, is 1-1 with Crutchmer, has 2 losses to Realbuto, which should only be 1 loss, has beaten Ottinger twice. IMO, both Crutchmer and Rogers have the ability to AA this year, it just sucks they are both the same weight.
check out these results made_up_name.
i hope this link works.
http://s400.trackwrestling.com/tw/s...Name=WrestlerMatches.jsp&wrestlerId=278179011
click on mm name.
or look at post below
i hope this link works.
http://s400.trackwrestling.com/tw/s...Name=WrestlerMatches.jsp&wrestlerId=278179011
click on mm name.
or look at post below
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A Medical Forfeit (MFF) can only happen in tournaments, when a wrestler cannot go. An Injury Default, or simply a "Default" happens when a wrestler is unable to continue a match that already started. A Default counts on the record of BOTH wrestlers, while a Medical Forfeit only counts on the record of the wrestler awarded the victory.
6.5 Medical Forfeit
A contestant who is injured or becomes ill during the course of tournament
competition may declare a medical forfeit in subsequent rounds of the tournament
without appearing on the mat, provided medical personnel or an authorized
institutional representative has informed the official scorer of the wrestler’s inability
to continue. In order to retain advancement and placement points previously
earned in the tournament, this declaration must be made to the official scorer
before the ill or injured wrestler is called to the mat. A participant declaring a
medical forfeit is excused from further weigh-ins.
2.17 Default
A default is awarded in a match when one of the wrestlers is unable to
continue due to an injury or by choice of his or her coach. A default shall
be included as a win or loss in each wrestler’s individual season record.
6.5 Medical Forfeit
A contestant who is injured or becomes ill during the course of tournament
competition may declare a medical forfeit in subsequent rounds of the tournament
without appearing on the mat, provided medical personnel or an authorized
institutional representative has informed the official scorer of the wrestler’s inability
to continue. In order to retain advancement and placement points previously
earned in the tournament, this declaration must be made to the official scorer
before the ill or injured wrestler is called to the mat. A participant declaring a
medical forfeit is excused from further weigh-ins.
2.17 Default
A default is awarded in a match when one of the wrestlers is unable to
continue due to an injury or by choice of his or her coach. A default shall
be included as a win or loss in each wrestler’s individual season record.
I think my comment sent this thread way off of John's intentions on the comment. The initial comment by Obero reflects what someone else heard in the radio show. I think John was disappointed in the fact that Boyd did not get a win. Obero did not hear the comments directly and John generally gives the impression that the glass if half empty. I am sure nothing was meat to disparage MM. I hope they meet in NYC and wrestle a full match.
I can see why MM did not finish as he needs to be ready to go for the Big 10's.
I can see why MM did not finish as he needs to be ready to go for the Big 10's.
To piggyback on what RoarLions posted. Here's a link to the current rulebook that he's getting that info from. https://www.ncaapublications.com/p-...s-and-interpretations-2-year-publication.aspx
There does appear to be an exception to the forfeits/medical forfeits rule though - in the clarification for RPI it says "Forfeits and medical forfeits wins and losses are excluded from the 17 match count." However, since a medical forfeit and an injury default are two separate things, I believe that an injury default is treated as a loss for RPI and seeding purposes.
There does appear to be an exception to the forfeits/medical forfeits rule though - in the clarification for RPI it says "Forfeits and medical forfeits wins and losses are excluded from the 17 match count." However, since a medical forfeit and an injury default are two separate things, I believe that an injury default is treated as a loss for RPI and seeding purposes.
On Sunday Boyd was awarded a victory via injury default as Matt received a loss.
John Smith was not disappointed, disgusted or even thinking Boyd did not receive a win on his record.
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So Nitlion6, you must be one of those people that know how everyone feels, right? You don't have the transcript of what was actually said and you didn't hear it from him, so how would you know how he feels about the situation. I'm sure he was disappointed or even disgusted that HIS wrestler didn't get to wrestle and win an outright win and not get a default win. It sucks MM is injured, wish he wasn't. I know if I was in John's place, I would have been disappointed that Boyd didn't get to wrestle the whole match. And to further that, I would have thought why the hell is he (Cael) putting him out there in a meaningless match with Big 10's and NCAA coming up, instead of resting him.
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Tristan Sponseller (Lock Haven) (Fall 5:56)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Zachary Zavatsky (Virginia Tech) (MD 18-4)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Jesus Ambriz (CSU Bakersfield) (MD 12-3)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Garet Krohn (Stanford) (Dec 6-3)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Corey Kerkesner (Franklin & Marshall) (TF 0-0 3:19)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Connor Route (Pennsylvania College of Technology) (Fall 0:52)
Tyler Askey (Virginia) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Michael Macchiavello (North Carolina State) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Dec 6-4)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Ryan Christensen (Wisconsin) (MD 13-1)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Michale Fagg-Daves (Rider) (Dec 3-0)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) received a bye
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Taylor Jackson (Appalachian State) (Fall 2:50)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Michael Macchiavello (North Carolina State) (Dec 5-4)
Mathew Miller (Navy) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Garet Krohn (Stanford) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Timothy Dudley (Nebraska) (Dec 8-7)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Regis Durbin (Northwestern) (Inj. 0:52)
Jeffrey Koepke (Illinois) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Inj. 4:02)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Kenny Courts (Ohio State) (Dec 4-0)
Nate Brown (Lehigh) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Dec 6-0)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Shwan Shadaia (Michigan State) (Dec 3-0)
Nolan Boyd (Oklahoma State) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Inj. 3:38)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Zachary Zavatsky (Virginia Tech) (MD 18-4)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Jesus Ambriz (CSU Bakersfield) (MD 12-3)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Garet Krohn (Stanford) (Dec 6-3)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Corey Kerkesner (Franklin & Marshall) (TF 0-0 3:19)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Connor Route (Pennsylvania College of Technology) (Fall 0:52)
Tyler Askey (Virginia) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Michael Macchiavello (North Carolina State) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Dec 6-4)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Ryan Christensen (Wisconsin) (MD 13-1)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Michale Fagg-Daves (Rider) (Dec 3-0)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) received a bye
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Taylor Jackson (Appalachian State) (Fall 2:50)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Michael Macchiavello (North Carolina State) (Dec 5-4)
Mathew Miller (Navy) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Garet Krohn (Stanford) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (M. For.)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Timothy Dudley (Nebraska) (Dec 8-7)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Regis Durbin (Northwestern) (Inj. 0:52)
Jeffrey Koepke (Illinois) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Inj. 4:02)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Kenny Courts (Ohio State) (Dec 4-0)
Nate Brown (Lehigh) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Dec 6-0)
Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) over Shwan Shadaia (Michigan State) (Dec 3-0)
Nolan Boyd (Oklahoma State) over Matt McCutcheon (Penn State) (Inj. 3:38)
"You don't have the transcript of what was actually said and you didn't hear it from him, so how would you know how he feels about the situation".
Well. Where do we find a transcript or podcast of said radio show?
Well. Where do we find a transcript or podcast of said radio show?
Are you saying that Mike Holder(AD) or Sean Mcguire do not release transcripts/podcasts of his coaches radio shows?
Listen, I spoke to someone immediately after John Smith's show who knew a guy who watched a TV show with another guy who had lived with a guy who knew a guy who rode in an elevator with a guy who once spoke to someone who had been around John Smith at some point in his life, and I'm here to tell you FIRST HAND that John actually said what he said.
So, suck a butt, losers!!!
So, suck a butt, losers!!!
Well. I do have to admit I do not really know for sure how Smith felt.
I was just trying to figure how an intelligent, thoughtful coach who actually knows the rules would feel about the situation.
So I am still sticking with my statement. John Smith was not disgusted with McCutchen. John Smith is too knowledgable to become confused as to whether or not Boyd was credited with a victory and McCutchen a loss.
Now for some responses in this thread - the idea of intelligence, thoughtfulness and knowledgeable about the rules of wrestling are not high on my list of considerations.
Wow! Now I know how to spark some action on this board. I did not hear the show. It was recapped by a friend who listened. I did not make up what I heard, I repeated it verbatim. I can not get the show in Shawnee, America. I apologize if it was incorrect HOWEVER I clearly stated that John was not accusing McCutcheon of faking an injury however he was not happy that on six occasions (This is the disputed number and I bow to the record shown by Jon_OSU so either my friend or John was incorrect) If McCutcheon got the loss and Boyd got the win then I have no problem with it and really six points is better for the team than the four Boyd would have gotten for what I think would be a major.IMHO. I wish and hope there is a transcript of the show but I do not know. There is no question that McCutcheon has a lingering knee injury and I also stated that. I would never make something up but since I hear did not hear the show I relied on someone I trust implicitly and he may have heard it wrong. If I can find out or can hear a transcript or recording of the show I will quote verbatim what John said. If John is wrong I am sure he will correct his statement. My only problem is that John said this would not count as a win for Boyd or a loss for McCutcheon and since McCutcheon was losing my problem was only with that. One more thing is that it may have shown up as a loss for McCutcheon and a win McCutcheon's ranking. According to what Jon_osu posted ther3e have been four matches two of which he medically forfeited and two in which he injury defaulted and four may be the correct number which I will admit is not six. I have talked again with said friend and he was fairly certain John said six but could not state with absolute certainty that John did not say "about six". One other thing he said was that John said it was "disappointing" but he may have said it in a manner that he meant more than that but he could not say for certain. A transcript of the show would sure clear this up. This is a wrestling board and opinions are expressed but I would never knowingly twist the facts. I have the utmost respect for Cael and the Penn State program and Matt McCutcheon.
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My source would indicate that what oberebo said was more or less correct, and that the manner in which John stated or didn't state the above mentioned information might very well might or might not have been stated in exactly such manner as was stated previously.
One other thing, several posters referred to he OP-I do not know what that is but apparently refers to me. If that stands for "old Prick" I am guilty but somewhat offended.