JonBenet Ramsey - 24 years later

[Tskware]

Found dead the day after Christmas, 1996 in Boulder Colorado. I read Perfect Murder, Perfect Town written in 1999 by Lawrence Schiller a long time ago and his ultimate conclusion, which has proved accurate so far, was that the case would NEVER be solved, absent a deathbed confession. There were just too many strange facts that did not fit any one suspect.

A few week ago, the Paddock tackled the Kennedy assassination (which IMO, was solved within 24 hours of the shooting), but the Ramsey case has never been solved, and to my knowledge, no one has ever been charged or indicted. Thoughts?

 

[Glenn's Take]

By not solved I am guessing you mean that in the way Nicole Simpson's murder was never solved?

 

[gobigbluebell]

Is that a confession, Glenn?

 

[Glenn's Take]

Is that a confession, Glenn?

Ever heard of the 5th amendment?

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

The brother killed her. The parents covered it up. Their money got them a free pass.

 

[rick64]

The brother killed her. The parents covered it up. Their money got them a free pass.

That’s kinda what I’ve always thought. The jealous brother lashed out and did it and to protect him the parents covered it up.

 

[Tskware]

That’s kinda what I’ve always thought. The jealous brother lashed out and did it and to protect him the parents covered it up.

I doubt it seriously, but that definitely will take a death bed confession to prove it, and Mrs. Ramsey is already dead. Mr. Ramsey remarried and now lives in Michigan

Per Wiki: Boulder DA released this statement in 2008:

On July 9, 2008, the Boulder County District Attorney's office announced that, as a result of newly developed DNA sampling and testing techniques known as Touch DNA analysis, the Ramsey family members were no longer considered suspects in the case.[15][16] In light of the new DNA evidence, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy gave a letter to John Ramsey that same day, officially apologizing to the Ramsey family:

This new scientific evidence convinces us ... to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife, Patsy, and your son, Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime....
The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder.... To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law.... We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered....
I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion. But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all of the evidence.

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

Dr. Henry Lee called it touch DNA and not from the killer.

No way around a 3 page ransom note written by the mother on paper from the home with a marker from the home and a practice note in the garbage can asking for a ransom amount that is exactly what the husband got for his bonus. If this had been normal people they'd have been arrested the same day and that note would have put them on death row.

The Ramsey's sued their way out of this. They were very aggressive legally in shaping the narrative. If you've got the money you can do that.

They did a TV interview after refusing a police interview for being too emotional. They staged their own lie detector "tests" to "prove" their innocence but refused an FBI polygraph examination. Everything the parents did was evasive and their money was used to warp the system just like OJ's did.

Just because a person is rich doesn't mean a case can't be solved. It means a solved case doesn't receive justice because of wealth.

 

[Tskware]

There is no doubt the ransom note is the key to the case, if you can prove who wrote the note, you have your killer. And the exact amount of the bonus was suspicious as hell, no question, maybe you are right, the mother did it, or the brother, but it is still a cold case almost a quarter century later.

 

[entropy13]

I doubt it seriously, but that definitely will take a death bed confession to prove it, and Mrs. Ramsey is already dead. Mr. Ramsey remarried and now lives in Michigan

Per Wiki: Boulder DA released this statement in 2008:

On July 9, 2008, the Boulder County District Attorney's office announced that, as a result of newly developed DNA sampling and testing techniques known as Touch DNA analysis, the Ramsey family members were no longer considered suspects in the case.[15][16] In light of the new DNA evidence, Boulder County District Attorney Mary Lacy gave a letter to John Ramsey that same day, officially apologizing to the Ramsey family:

This new scientific evidence convinces us ... to state that we do not consider your immediate family, including you, your wife, Patsy, and your son, Burke, to be under any suspicion in the commission of this crime....
The match of Male DNA on two separate items of clothing worn by the victim at the time of the murder makes it clear to us that an unknown male handled these items. There is no innocent explanation for its incriminating presence at three sites on these two different items of clothing that JonBenét was wearing at the time of her murder.... To the extent that we may have contributed in any way to the public perception that you might have been involved in this crime, I am deeply sorry. No innocent person should have to endure such an extensive trial in the court of public opinion, especially when public officials have not had sufficient evidence to initiate a trial in a court of law.... We intend in the future to treat you as the victims of this crime, with the sympathy due you because of the horrific loss you suffered....
I am aware that there will be those who will choose to continue to differ with our conclusion. But DNA is very often the most reliable forensic evidence we can hope to find and we rely on it often to bring to justice those who have committed crimes. I am very comfortable that our conclusion that this evidence has vindicated your family is based firmly on all of the evidence.

Well, the Boulder police and DA completely bungled the case from the get-go, so I have little faith in any conclusion they'd draw from some touch DNA. As nom de plume stated, the circumstances and evidence surrounding the ransom note indicate someone in the household was involved.

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

There is no doubt the ransom note is the key to the case, if you can prove who wrote the note, you have your killer. And the exact amount of the bonus was suspicious as hell, no question, maybe you are right, the mother did it, or the brother, but it is still a cold case almost a quarter century later.

The mother wrote it and if it were anyone else they would have said exactly that in convicting them, but when you can threaten someone with a multi-million dollar lawsuit for saying you wrote it then suddenly you're only allowed to say the father didn't write it but we can't exclude the mother.

Interesting analysis of the ransom note

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

An interesting summary from the link I provided above:

The 911 Call

- Patsy Ramsey began the 911 call by saying, "We have a kidnapping" as opposed to saying, "My daughter has been kidnapped."
- She had two changes in language that appear to be unjustified - "gone" to "missing" and "note" to "ransom note."
- She referred to herself as "the mother" and not "her mother."
- Unless it was at the beginning in the inaudible portion of her 911 call, Patsy's plea for help comes towards the end her call;
"Please send somebody."
- Patsy hung up the phone after reporting her daughter was missing.

There are too many unusual things about this 911 call which would lead us to believe that something is amiss.


The Ransom Note

- We know this was not a group effort because of the changing pronouns. The writer usually used plural pronouns but slipped and used
the singular pronoun "I" and "my."
- The writer misspelled two words in the first paragraph but correctly spelled all the other words. This indicates the author is probably
educated but was trying to sound uneducated.
- The writer requested a low and odd amount of money.
- The writer was about to say that they would deliver JonBenet but then crossed out the word "delivery."
- The writer used the phrase "she dies" as opposed to "she will die." This is an indication JonBenet was already dead when the ransom
note was written.
- At the end of the ransom note, the writer referred to John Ramsey as "John." This indicates the writer felt comfortable call him John.
The writer knows John Ramsey.
- The ransom note was 2.5 pages long. The FBI has stated they have never seen a ransom that long.
- The ransom note was written in the Ramsey house with their pen and their notebook.

It is very clear this ransom note was not written with the intent of extorting money from John Ramsey. It is not a legitimate ransom note. No one attempted to kidnap JonBenet. The ransom note was most likely written after she had died. All indications are it was written as a ruse to throw investigators off.


John and Patsy Ramsey's Interviews

- In their first interview, they were more interested in thanking people and finding out "why this happened" as opposed to finding out
who killed JonBenet.
- They both said that for their entire life they will be looking for the person who murdered their daughter. So far, that has held true.
- After someone broke into their house and murdered JonBenet, John Ramsey said they still believed they lived in a safe community.
- Patsy Ramsey said she thought the ransom note was written as a "Ruse to throw us off." This contradicts what they said in their book
The Death of Innocence. In their book, they said this was a kidnapping that turned into a murder.

The Ramsey's language indicates they know who killed JonBenet. That's why they can say they live in a safe community. That's why they both stated they will be looking for the killer for their entire life. They know this was not a kidnapping that turned into a murder. That is why Patsy Ramsey said she thought the ransom note was written as a ruse.


John Mark Karr

- He's a nut.


Burke Ramsey's Interviews

- Burke could not tell us with certainty when he last saw JonBenet alive. He said, "I want to say it was in the car."
- He did not give a very good explanation as to why he stayed in bed while his mother was frantically searching for JonBenet.
- He never specifically stated that the handwriting in the ransom did not look like his mother's handwriting.
- He denied being present during the 911 call.
- He gave a stronger denial when asked if he purposely hit JonBenet with a golf club as opposed to when he was asked if he hit her over
the head with a baseball bat or flashlight.
- He gave a good denial when asked if he harmed or murdered JonBenet. The problem is he was alerted that this was going to be an
important question.
- Burke's statement that he felt bad about possibly leaving the front door open appears to be truthful.

We do have problems with some of Burke's answers. There were times when he changed how he answered a question. There may be a justification for the change and we do not know what it is. There were times when Dr. Phil prepped him for the question. He did show signs of being truthful. He gave some direct denials and he said he felt bad about possibly leaving the front door open.

As to his truthfulness, this one is a toss-up. I would lean in the direction he was being truthful. However, there are several follow-up questions I would want to ask him which would help us in determining if he was telling us the whole truth.

The Sun has reported that Burke Ramsey, most likely through his lawyer, has offered to take a lie detector test to prove his innocence. A lot of people who say they are willing to take a polygraph never do. We will wait and see if he does take a polygraph test.

Update
As of 2020, Burke Ramsey has not taken a polygraph.

 

[Tskware]

^
Thx, that is interesting

Assuming I believe the mother did it, or the brother, why would a mother who worshiped that girl, took her all over the country for beauty pageants suddenly kill her daughter on Christmas, and then cover it up all those years and nobody in the family feel guilty and tell what really happened? Really strange case if that is what happened

 

[UK4number9]

The brother killed her. The parents covered it up. Their money got them a free pass.

I always kind of thought this

 

[chroix]

Never followed this case when it happened but damn. Using the fathers first name at the end of the note makes it pretty damn clear it was either someone who knew them or they faked it.

 

[WildcatFan1982]

I still don’t care

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

Parents who do this child pageant **** are creeps

 

[cawoodsct]

Suicide

 

[chroix]

Parents who do this child pageant **** are creeps

Whole lot of this. Creepy af.

 

[J_Dee]

Parents who do this child pageant **** are creeps

About five years ago a friend and I were waiting to be seated at a restaurant in the Richmond Center when a whole gaggle of child pageant moms and kids walked in. My friend immediately went off and (to put it nicely) she was neither subtle nor polite. I was sure that she was going to get us kicked out but nobody so much as said a single word to us. XD

 

[MdWIldcat55]

John Douglas, FBI legend of Mindhunter Fame, says it definitely was an outside intruder and not a family member.

People who say it was definitely the brother or mother or dad are responding superficially. If it were that simple, it’d be solved.

 

[BlueVelvetFog]

About five years ago a friend and I were waiting to be seated at a restaurant in the Richmond Center when a whole gaggle of child pageant moms and kids walked in. My friend immediately went off and (to put it nicely) she was neither subtle nor polite. I was sure that she was going to get us kicked out but nobody so much as said a single word to us. XD

IMO, she didn’t do enough

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

John Douglas, FBI legend of Mindhunter Fame, says it definitely was an outside intruder and not a family member.

People who say it was definitely the brother or mother or dad are responding superficially. If it were that simple, it’d be solved.

Grand jury voted to indict the parents in 1999 but the DA didn't. Money talks. Anywhere else you're going to jail and probably the death penalty.

Outside intruder theory has never worked. No footprints in the snow. Undisturbed spider web in the well by the basement window. John Ramsey admitted he broke the winder when he locked himself out of the house.

This case is not a mystery. The failure to prosecute is a mystery, but not the case. This is an open and shut conviction if it ever found its way in front of a jury.

 

[Tskware]

John Douglas, FBI legend of Mindhunter Fame, says it definitely was an outside intruder and not a family member.

People who say it was definitely the brother or mother or dad are responding superficially. If it were that simple, it’d be solved.

I have known quite a few prosecutors, not a single one could simply be bought off by a bunch of money when a 6 year old child was bludgeoned and strangled. I have never bought the idea that the Ramseys' wealth gave them a get out of jail free card

Yet no tracks in the snow, etc. is also very hard to explain

 

[chroix]

Prosecutors hate losing cases. Especially high profile ones. If they were outgunned or there was too much ambiguity they are not going to pursue.

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

I’ll stick with John Douglas’ opinion. He actually has credibility.

The paint brush used for the garotte was from Patsy's art kit, only fingerprints on the note is Patsy's, the handwriting of the note is Patsy's, the paper used for the ransom note is Patsy's personal stationary, the practice note was on Patsy's personal stationary, the pen used to write the note is from the writing desk in the home.

Pineapple, JonBenet's favorite treat, was found in a bowl on the kitchen table. The only fingerprints on the bowl were Burke's, her brother. I believe Burke lured JonBenet from her bedroom to the kitchen with the bowl of pineapple, then whether by accident or by acting out something he saw on television or whatever, he struck her with a flashlight in the head then looped a cord around her neck and tightened it with one of Patsy's paintbrushes. I think he woke Patty up and told her what he had done and then she woke John up. I think they both panicked because Burke is like the weirdest kid you have ever seen in your life and they knew he'd be put away and they'd lose both kids so they decided to cover it up. In their panic they didn't agree completely on a cover story, John ran off to the basement with Jon Benet's body to stage the crime as a sexual intruder while Patty came up with the hairbrained ransom story then called the police, John comes up from the basement and is furious when he finds Patty has already made the call to 9/11 and people argue you can hear John saying "what have you done" on the call.

Whatever happened, it all happened in that house by the inhabitants of that house. No similar 3 page ransom note exists in crime history. FBI has never seen one. You can move the pieces around and a lot of very smart people think John Ramsey the father did it, other people make a case for Patsy with the bedwetting theory, then there's Burke... but it was in the house by one of those three and for me it comes down to if my spouse did it then I'm not covering for them but if my kid did it, well, I'd do anything to save my kid. The Ramsey's immediately insisted Burke was asleep during the entire episode oblivious to Burke's fingerprints on that bowl. He was up and they lied about it and that's what begins this entire ridiculous chain of lies. It was Burke.

 

[UK4number9]

Parents who do this child pageant **** are creeps

My wife watched that child pageant show back when it was on. Honey boo boo got her start there. They were disgusting. The moms would give the kids pixie sticks and soda to get them hyped up. Promise them gifts if they won. 6-7 year olds looked 20. Usually dad just sat there looking pissed at the money they were spending.

 

[TurnipDaBeet]

Something interesting...

Research the “pageants”

 

[Deeeefense]

The brother killed her. The parents covered it up. Their money got them a free pass.

The investigative documentary I watched awhile back pretty much came to that conclusion. He had motive as he was jealous of all the attention she got. I initially suspected it was brother early on but the "investigators" cleared him and dismissed him as a suspect a few days after the murder. Later it was discovered what a crappy job they did. All the evidence pointed to him.

 

[Elbridge]

The paint brush used for the garotte was from Patsy's art kit, only fingerprints on the note is Patsy's, the handwriting of the note is Patsy's, the paper used for the ransom note is Patsy's personal stationary, the practice note was on Patsy's personal stationary, the pen used to write the note is from the writing desk in the home.

Pineapple, JonBenet's favorite treat, was found in a bowl on the kitchen table. The only fingerprints on the bowl were Burke's, her brother. I believe Burke lured JonBenet from her bedroom to the kitchen with the bowl of pineapple, then whether by accident or by acting out something he saw on television or whatever, he struck her with a flashlight in the head then looped a cord around her neck and tightened it with one of Patsy's paintbrushes. I think he woke Patty up and told her what he had done and then she woke John up. I think they both panicked because Burke is like the weirdest kid you have ever seen in your life and they knew he'd be put away and they'd lose both kids so they decided to cover it up. In their panic they didn't agree completely on a cover story, John ran off to the basement with Jon Benet's body to stage the crime as a sexual intruder while Patty came up with the hairbrained ransom story then called the police, John comes up from the basement and is furious when he finds Patty has already made the call to 9/11 and people argue you can hear John saying "what have you done" on the call.

Whatever happened, it all happened in that house by the inhabitants of that house. No similar 3 page ransom note exists in crime history. FBI has never seen one. You can move the pieces around and a lot of very smart people think John Ramsey the father did it, other people make a case for Patsy with the bedwetting theory, then there's Burke... but it was in the house by one of those three and for me it comes down to if my spouse did it then I'm not covering for them but if my kid did it, well, I'd do anything to save my kid. The Ramsey's immediately insisted Burke was asleep during the entire episode oblivious to Burke's fingerprints on that bowl. He was up and they lied about it and that's what begins this entire ridiculous chain of lies. It was Burke.

You sure seem very interested, intrigued and astute to this murder case. Maybe you are the creep?

 

[Ron Mehico]

The paint brush used for the garotte was from Patsy's art kit, only fingerprints on the note is Patsy's, the handwriting of the note is Patsy's, the paper used for the ransom note is Patsy's personal stationary, the practice note was on Patsy's personal stationary, the pen used to write the note is from the writing desk in the home.

Pineapple, JonBenet's favorite treat, was found in a bowl on the kitchen table. The only fingerprints on the bowl were Burke's, her brother. I believe Burke lured JonBenet from her bedroom to the kitchen with the bowl of pineapple, then whether by accident or by acting out something he saw on television or whatever, he struck her with a flashlight in the head then looped a cord around her neck and tightened it with one of Patsy's paintbrushes. I think he woke Patty up and told her what he had done and then she woke John up. I think they both panicked because Burke is like the weirdest kid you have ever seen in your life and they knew he'd be put away and they'd lose both kids so they decided to cover it up. In their panic they didn't agree completely on a cover story, John ran off to the basement with Jon Benet's body to stage the crime as a sexual intruder while Patty came up with the hairbrained ransom story then called the police, John comes up from the basement and is furious when he finds Patty has already made the call to 9/11 and people argue you can hear John saying "what have you done" on the call.

Whatever happened, it all happened in that house by the inhabitants of that house. No similar 3 page ransom note exists in crime history. FBI has never seen one. You can move the pieces around and a lot of very smart people think John Ramsey the father did it, other people make a case for Patsy with the bedwetting theory, then there's Burke... but it was in the house by one of those three and for me it comes down to if my spouse did it then I'm not covering for them but if my kid did it, well, I'd do anything to save my kid. The Ramsey's immediately insisted Burke was asleep during the entire episode oblivious to Burke's fingerprints on that bowl. He was up and they lied about it and that's what begins this entire ridiculous chain of lies. It was Burke.

I don’t get it? Why would the parents come up with some weird alibi story if it was their son. They would just say their son accidentally killed his sister. It’s not like the state is going to put a little kid on death row - especially if the parents are supporting the kid and saying it’s an accident.

 

[nom de plume_rivals392166]

I don’t get it? Why would the parents come up with some weird alibi story if it was their son. They would just say their son accidentally killed his sister. It’s not like the state is going to put a little kid on death row - especially if the parents are supporting the kid and saying it’s an accident.

Hitting someone in the head with a flashlight then putting a cord around their neck and tightening it with a paint brush handle isn't an accident, and Burke is about the strangest kid you've ever seen. I don't do as good of a job of explaining as the documentary Defense mentions above. I saw that too and it convinced me of it being Burke as previously I had been in the Patsy camp.

As for the guy asking why I am interested in this case, I am a crime buff. I will participate in all crime threads. The JFK thread was a very good one and I enjoyed that one as well.

 

[Madcat62_rivals113839]

Parents who do this child pageant **** are creeps

very much so

 

[LineSkiCat14]

John Douglas, FBI legend of Mindhunter Fame, says it definitely was an outside intruder and not a family member.

People who say it was definitely the brother or mother or dad are responding superficially. If it were that simple, it’d be solved.

I like this response.. probably because I see so much of it here lately: people being SO sure of something (example: Cal's devious intentions), that it should be easy to take right to the authorities then, right?

But I will also counter.. if Douglas is so sure himself, how come HE can't solve the case?

Idk.. just being a Devils Advocate. I dont know much about this case and details but interesting thread to read. Certainly more than RR.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

I don’t get it? Why would the parents come up with some weird alibi story if it was their son. They would just say their son accidentally killed his sister. It’s not like the state is going to put a little kid on death row - especially if the parents are supporting the kid and saying it’s an accident.

Hey, if parents are nutty enough to put one kid in all these pageants.. I can totally see them doing whatever they can to protect their last "prized posession". So I can see that, IMO. Like others said, pageant parents are weird.. its like, they're living through their kid's, there's something not right, mentally, for a parent to make their kid do these.

 

[CB3UK]

I didn't follow it when it happened. More tabloid media junk is what all the coverage was. Disgusting. But now 25 yrs later, yes, its interesting they still haven't officially charged and prosecuted anyone. I never did understand why it got so much press at the time.

 

[TurnipDaBeet]

Research her pageants

 

[Tskware]

I didn't follow it when it happened. More tabloid media junk is what all the coverage was. Disgusting. But now 25 yrs later, yes, its interesting they still haven't officially charged and prosecuted anyone. I never did understand why it got so much press at the time.

Well because it's not just every day that a six-year-old girl is found dead in her wealthy parents home and 25 years later no one is ever charged for the crime.

 

[MdWIldcat55]

I like this response.. probably because I see so much of it here lately: people being SO sure of something (example: Cal's devious intentions), that it should be easy to take right to the authorities then, right?

But I will also counter.. if Douglas is so sure himself, how come HE can't solve the case?

Idk.. just being a Devils Advocate. I dont know much about this case and details but interesting thread to read. Certainly more than RR.

There is a decent multi-part podcast out there on True Crime Garage that lists some plausible suspects. Those guys -- not genuises by the way but at least they put in a lot of time -- agree with John Douglas, who they interviewed, and also the local prosecutor who exonerated the family in 2008, that it was someone outside the immediate family. Who? Again, there are people to choose from if one really gets into the details of the case. I can't say that I'm convinced of anyone's guilt. But there is some DNA, so the case could possibly be solved some day the way some of these cases are.

 

[august-west]

Is it possible that there may have been an extended family member or friend that were staying with the Ramsey’s at that time, with it being Christmas and all? Just throwing against the wall, I guess.