Ok by no means is this to start some kind of wanting this coach or that coach debate. but look at this statistic someone shared with me yesterday. Carmody's last 5 years at NU - 88-74 / 36-52 Big 10 (4 NIT appearances) / Collins 89-74 / Big 10 - 34-56 (1 NCAA appearance!!!!). Aside from the NCAA bid which was enormously huge but even I admit the Big 10 was down last year has this program really really turned the corner or have we been relatively just the same the last decade?
Just something to ponder
- Thread starter catsattackfor3
- Start date
I think we will know after the best recruiting class in NU history competes for a couple of years. Right now, records aside, the eye test tells me NU has turned a corner.
Another way to look at it is with a Felis illustration of Big 10 wins:
8-7-7-8-4-[CC]-6-6-8-10-6........one could conclude NU is on a 8+/-1 win plateau.....
I think we've turned a BIG corner of sorts by showing that NU can win with a conventional offense and tough defense, and that recruiting is not the insurmountable hurdle it has been made out to be. Now Collins has to bring in the talent needed to sustain winning using a conventional offense.
Look I agree with the injuries hampering us but we have played really bad this year when healthy too. And Coble was injured years back which I understand that set those teams back as well
Well, once upon a time Northwestern’s basketball team having a 20 season Was a dream and now it is a disappointment
Yes. I want more, just like eveyone else here . . . but at this stage of our program's ascension, a little perspective remains in order.
We will know if the program has turned the corner if we get back to the tournament in the next 2 to 3 years.
Why was the B1G down last year? It didn't have any great teams (it rarely does) but I think it had 5 or 6 teams in the field of 32. That suggests good depth. And we were an 8 seed, so it's not like we just squeaked in. And we won a game. And we had a decent chance to beat a team that played in the finals. So 5 year records aside, last year's team was significantly better than any team during Carmody's prior 5 year-period. In that sense, we certainly turned a corner.
Uh, a 20-win season would not be a disappointment this year. The disappointment is that this is likely to be a 17 or fewer win season.
You've switched Carmody and Collins' records. Collins is 88-74 (36-52), Carmody was 89-74 (34-56).
I think we're in the process of turning a corner because a) we've now made the tournament and b) we've shown we can recruit at a higher level than we once thought possible. In BC's final years, we were rolling out a mid-seed NIT roster every year and hoping that with a couple of breaks we could sneak into the tournament. CC has shown that our ceiling is higher than that, as the 2017 team most certainly did not sneak into the tournament. Whether we can finish the turn and establish ourselves as a regular tournament contender remains to be seen.
Wouldn't it make more sense to compare the first 5 years of each coach? I mean Collins just now has a roster of his players. Also he hasn't had 13 years to build a program yet.
Sorry about the record reversal but regardless the question is have we turned the corner or was last year just more of the same type of year that just happened to finally make the dance. Not about Carmody and Collins comparison as there is no comparison but the team / program etc. is the program really going to be a player in the B10 / NCAA every year or is it an NIT team with a possible tourney appearance here and there. If so to me its been competitive the last decade as a whole
Aboslutely not because Collins took over a program that was in the NIT 4 times in 5 years thats quite a difference taking over a program that had lost 20 plus games 4 out 5 years prior. in total the last 10 years its been about the same 4 NIT bids and 1 NCAA bid -4 20 win seasons
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Hey, facts and math have no place on this board. Especially when they paint cc in a bad light.
Let’s forget about the unseemly Creaning, the running onto the floor like a madman to embarrassingly cost us an ncaa game and that he’s sometimes too distracted to hand in the lineup card for another technical foul.
Let’s focus on the fact he went to Duke, plays a more conventional style and can really recruit.
All these “statistics” are just confusing.
5 years. One postseason. Not even in the conversation the other 4 times. His first non BC team? Abysmal. Next year? Not looking good.
h.
Hey, facts and math have no place on this board. Especially when they paint cc in a bad light.
Let’s forget about the unseemly Creaning, the running onto the floor like a madman to embarrassingly cost us an ncaa game and that he’s sometimes too distracted to hand in the lineup card for another technical foul.
Let’s focus on the fact he went to Duke, plays a more conventional style and can really recruit.
All these “statistics” are just confusing.
5 years. One postseason. Not even in the conversation the other 4 times. His first non BC team? Abysmal. Next year? Not looking good.
I was about 7 when Carmody took over so I don't really remember those years before him. So I see your point there.
Just a reminder that in Bill Carmody's final season, he was 13-19 and 4-14 in Big Ten play. He didn't leave CC with an NIT team and CC had some rebuilding to do. Through last season, CC's win total increased every year from the low Carmody left him.
NIT! NIT! NIT? I really enjoyed the new Big Ten Network documentary on going to the NIT four years in a row, "First, Second, Third and Fourth Dance With Your Cousin." It brought tears to my eyes. What an accomplishment. Even non-NU fans talk about how remarkable that was.
And while I struggle with statistics as much as the next guy, I am pretty sure abysmal is going 3 and 31 in your 7th and 8th seasons. But, again, I am no statistician like you. And if we win our last two games, this team would have 8 conference victories. Admittedly, a disappointing season. It was also something that Carmody achieved three times (assuming the 7 and 9 team would have split its last two games) and bettered once (assuming the 8 and 8 team would have split their last two games) in 13 seasons. I don't have a great memory but I don't recall any talk of those seasons being abysmal on your part.
Oh, and bringing in 3 top 150 guys to go along with Law, Pardon and the BC transfer looks o.k. to me.
Last year's team was significantly better than the 4 NIT teams. While a couple of those BC teams could have made the tournament with one or two breaks - winning one of those excruciating Ohio State losses, for example - they wouldn't have been an 8 seed. Everyone points to the Michigan miracle win last year as "the moment" and symbolically it was, but NU's resume was good enough to get in even if they'd lost that game.
That being said, there's a long way to go to become a legitimate Big Ten contender. If that's how you define improvement, then no, we have not yet turned the corner. But I don't think the door is closed on that possibility, given the apparent quality of our most recent recruiting class.
Why do you bother to post your Collins and NU hate? Just go back to the HC Board and keep kissing BC's ***. if you haven't noticed the vast majority of the boards posters are happy that Carmody is gone and Collins is the NU coach. In other words, GET LOST!
A big difference between the NIT teams and last year's NCAA team is how the season ended. The NIT teams, IIRC, were pummeled by the last team they played....run off the court. The NCAA team was competitive against Gonzaga which went to the championship game.
The criticism against Collins for the tech is something I honestly don't get. If it were poker, it would be the "tell" that you're focused on something other than the game. Good for Collins losing his **** over the no call. The refs did not belong on the court.
The criticism against Collins for the tech is something I honestly don't get. If it were poker, it would be the "tell" that you're focused on something other than the game. Good for Collins losing his **** over the no call. The refs did not belong on the court.
And it's so funny how everybody was pointing to CC's hypothetical future accomplishments as a way to tear down Fitz this season.
When will the stupidity of this discussion end?
Let me a take a different direction. I'll go with the program and ignore:
* The tournament bid
* The tournament win
* The two top 100s this year
* Carmody's first eight years
* Carmody's talent had far more to do with Hardy
* Carmody teams NEVER defended or rebounded
* He ran off any number of players
* Holy Cross has yet to finish above .500 in the PATRIOT LEAGUE. Yes, they had the tournament bid. But if we're going to call the NU tournament bid lucky ...
We know all of these points that are so conveniently pushed aside when "we don't want to have the discussion."
I'll ignore all of these and ask this question: If Carmody was given a new five year contract in 2013, would NU be finishing a new area this year?
Even IF his team made a tournament, NO WAY. Carmody never wanted to play the game, and people wouldn't have stepped up so quickly.
And before anyone starts with the Phillips conspiracy theories, ask yourself how many more opportunities Carmody needed. This wasn't simply a problem on the court. And Carmody didn't know how to run a program at a Power 5 level.
It's not just an on-court thing. This program is FAR ahead of where it was in 2013.
Now, can we stop playing Freebird and move on to a different tune.
Let me a take a different direction. I'll go with the program and ignore:
* The tournament bid
* The tournament win
* The two top 100s this year
* Carmody's first eight years
* Carmody's talent had far more to do with Hardy
* Carmody teams NEVER defended or rebounded
* He ran off any number of players
* Holy Cross has yet to finish above .500 in the PATRIOT LEAGUE. Yes, they had the tournament bid. But if we're going to call the NU tournament bid lucky ...
We know all of these points that are so conveniently pushed aside when "we don't want to have the discussion."
I'll ignore all of these and ask this question: If Carmody was given a new five year contract in 2013, would NU be finishing a new area this year?
Even IF his team made a tournament, NO WAY. Carmody never wanted to play the game, and people wouldn't have stepped up so quickly.
And before anyone starts with the Phillips conspiracy theories, ask yourself how many more opportunities Carmody needed. This wasn't simply a problem on the court. And Carmody didn't know how to run a program at a Power 5 level.
It's not just an on-court thing. This program is FAR ahead of where it was in 2013.
Now, can we stop playing Freebird and move on to a different tune.
The two top 100s this year.
How many?
Wow. You’re touting one Top 100 win in his 5th full year.
Talk about participation trophies.
Hers your cupcake112, don’t eat it all at once.
MysticCat, what are you doing out of bed? The other residents at your facility don't appreciate you making a racket late at night. Now please, return to bed. Nurse Jackie will be along with your prochlorperazine suppository in a bit.
Rhode Island blew us out one year, Washington blew us out in the 2nd round one year. Another year we had a shot to tie Tulsa in the final minute but missed and ended up losing by 9 after free throws. And the year we made the quarterfinals we lost to Washington State in OT and we had multiple shots at the end to win the game, though we were fortunate to be in OT.
I don't memba any of it now; it is forever replaced in my memory by our stellar play in the Dance. THE DANCE!
Oh I’m there with you. I’m just relaying the info. And I happened to be at 2 of those season-ending NIT games. (I assume I’m one of the few Cats fan who was both in Pullman, WA in 2011 and SLC last year).
It’s pretty incredible that it’s been five and a half years since Collins was hired, we’ve broken the tourney barrier...and there are still heated Carmody vs. Collins debates.
That’s a thing right there.
That’s a thing right there.
We lost back to back home games to western Michigan and Illinois state.
Like Big Ten teams sometimes do.
See this is why I started this post by saying its not about this coach or that coach. The program has been consistent the last 10 years in terms of wins /losses. The NCAA bid was huge but it should have happened years before, it didn't I get it...we are competitive yes but really have been for the last decade. My point is have we turned the corner and are we going to be a consistent upper echelon Big Ten team, are we going to the post season regularly or have we peaked and this is the best we are going to be.
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In fairness, not directed at you. I think you made it clear this was not your intention...but shouldn’t be surprised this is the direction it went.
Especially when it awakens the Carmody huggers to post hateful thoughts toward Collins and NU.