Last caller on KSR today

[CB3UK]

Do not remember the caller's name but he was 100% on point before MJ interrupted him per usual. Hopefully the caller sees this thread and chimes in, no idea if they are a poster. Anyway....

...the gist of the call was we throw an absurd amount of money at a name coach. The example was Urban Meyer. Caller argued that instead of putting all the money into the facilities as we just did, we should have offered a proven winner something financially they couldn't rationally refuse. Matt's counterpoints were that A.) We couldn't do that because Calipari would then demand his salary be doubled because he would not stand for being at Kentucky while making less than the football coach and B.) that investing in the facilities was more important than paying a proven big time winner, because you just never know how long they'll last, and that you don't build a program around a coach but get the core foundation in place and then find the coach who fits your plan.

Both of those points are patently absurd. First, unless Matt has been privy to a conversation with Cal explicitly stating he expects that, I have no idea why he would care in the slightest about the football coach's salary. Frankly I don't care if he does, Cal can walk then if we are bringing in the next Nick Saban. A winning football program means 10 times more financially to a university than basketball; even at Kentucky. I also sincerely doubt Cal would leave because (like 99.9% of collegiate basketball coaches) he made less than the football coach. The moment Kentucky football won big time we'd convert just like everyone else in the country. Just look at Louisville.

Secondly, the facilities argument....I wanted to bang my head against the wall. Look no further than the basketball team right here, or Louisville and Tennessee football for examples of why that is completely false. Tubby (at the end due to his assitants) and Gillispie both had a terrible run of recruiting because no players wanted to play for them. Phil Fulmer at the end at Tennessee, Steve Kragthorpe at Louisville, hell even Mike Shula and Mike Dubose at Alabama....All had issues winning because they couldn't recruit well, and they couldn't recruit because players didn't want to play for them. Lane Kiffin, Calipari, Saban, Petrino all IMMEDIATELY walked into HC positions and recruited at elite levels with the exact same facilities their failed predecessors had because they were proven winners with a name that players loved and respected. Facilities only show that we're serious about a given sport, and in the Olympic sports that's nice. In the arms race SEC yes we have to have them. But a Nick Saban could do just as well here as he could at Alabama, or did at LSU or Michigan State. The facilities do not win games or win players commitments, the coaching staff does every single time. If anything the facilities attract coaches, as it shows your true commitment to their given sport. Ask Rich Brooks why he retired when he did. Get a clue KSR.

 

[Jazzycat]

Disagree with point A
Agree with point B

The upgraded facilities will pay dividends in the next hire and on the recruiting front. My guess is that Calipari would be thrilled to see a winning fb program at UK.....

 

[WildcatofNati]

If throwing an absurd amount of money at a name coach was enough to get the coach, other teams would do it more often. The reality is, for the UKs and Vandys and Purdues of the world (not to mention midmajors), it's rarely going to entice to true heavy hitters here anyway. They'll just get an absurd amount of money thrown at them from LSU or Alabama or Texas and they're going to go there, and not here.

 

[CB3UK]

Disagree with point A
Agree with point B

The upgraded facilities will pay dividends in the next hire and on the recruiting front. My guess is that Calipari would be thrilled to see a winning fb program at UK.....

What about A did you disagree with? I love the basketball team don't get me wrong, but if I had a choice between having Saban or Cal I would take Saban in a heartbeat. Football simply matters more no matter what our fan base tries to convince itself of. I have a hard time believing Cal would walk out of here because we paid a football coach over $10 mil a year and he's getting $8.

If throwing an absurd amount of money at a name coach was enough to get the coach, other teams would do it more often. The reality is, for the UKs and Vandys and Purdues of the world (not to mention midmajors), it's rarely going to entice to true heavy hitters here anyway. They'll just get an absurd amount of money thrown at them from LSU or Alabama or Texas and they're going to go there, and not here.

Oh don't get me wrong, I agree with that and to Matt's credit he pointed that out. Vandy is hamstrung by academics. They loosened their focus under Franklin but after the trouble they had the administration has tightened things up. Mason will be there awhile I think regardless of his on field results. Yes, I acknowledge that the facilities can now be used as a tool to attract a big name coach in tandem with an absurd salary offer. In the past we had no support on any front, but we also never truly tried to make a run at the real big names out there. As was pointed out in another thread, Joe Craft and RJ Corman and the like aren't out there wining and dining the elite of football coaches trying to get them here. There are a lot of issues at stake there as we all know. The point is that we actually CAN get someone big here if the powers that be would learn how to play ball.

 

[CB3UK]

Also, let's ask ourselves why these top coaches allegedly won't even consider us. Obviously if we're willing to pony up $12 million a year for Stoops not to coach then money isn't an issue. The fans have shown they will show up at Commonwealth for remotely decent football. Lexington and the surrounding area is a beautiful place to live. Coaches are born competitors, so it's not an issue of history. The issue has always been the administration.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

Texas threw an ungodly amount at Saban. He didn't take it. Doing that won't work at UK if it didn't work for Texas. It makes sense in theory, but when you're already making $5-10 million per year money isn't what you're concerned about anymore.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

If throwing an absurd amount of money at a name coach was enough to get the coach, other teams would do it more often. The reality is, for the UKs and Vandys and Purdues of the world (not to mention midmajors), it's rarely going to entice to true heavy hitters here anyway. They'll just get an absurd amount of money thrown at them from LSU or Alabama or Texas and they're going to go there, and not here.

Yep. As I've said before, there was a period of time when we could've bought a good coach because, one, we were one of the few schools with a lot of money and, two, the SEC was merely a really good league (not the impossible situation it later became). Now, just about any school can pay a ton of money, so why come here to get your brains beat in and end your career? I'm sure that was the big selling point for Barnhart on CMS - he actually really wanted the job, and apparently had always thought it could be something. How many big name coordinators, let alone big name head coaches, actually "want" the uk job? Not many.

 

[CB3UK]

$20 million+ is what was floated out there when I say absurd. Not just one upping but blowing out the other guys offers.

 

[CB3UK]

Yep. As I've said before, there was a period of time when we could've bought a good coach because, one, we were one of the few schools with a lot of money and, two, the SEC was merely a really good league (not the impossible situation it later became). Now, just about any school can pay a ton of money, so why come here to get your brains beat in and end your career? I'm sure that was the big selling point for Barnhart on CMS - he actually really wanted the job, and apparently had always thought it could be something. How many big name coordinators, let alone big name head coaches, actually "want" the uk job? Not many.

Oregon, LSU, Louisville, Florida before 1990...Plenty of examples of what are now big football schools that were not historically. They all had ADs that went out and sold the right guy on coming on board and showed them why they would want the job.

 

[RackOps]

What happens when your $10 million a year coach goes 7-5?

 

[BIGCAT4LIFE]

What happens when your AD has everyone believing he can't get a good football coach to come to your school? Maybe it's time to replace the AD.

 

[Poetax]

What happens when your $10 million a year coach goes 7-5?

Farrrrrrrrr him.

 

[TeoJ]

$20 million+ is what was floated out there when I say absurd. Not just one upping but blowing out the other guys offers.

Very easy to throw out a number but becomes real if you have to actuallly have to pay it.

 

[Xception]

Matt said Cal would have to be equally paid , not doubled in pay if you gave a UK football coach a ridiculous amount and he's right about that . No big time coach is coming here when other schools with built in benefits (recruits in state , insane boosters) can offer anything UK could and more . The idea that you give a coach far more than they are already overpaid is irresponsible and there has to be a limit at some point , but again it's irrelevant because no proven coach in his right mind would want to risk his career here .

Oregon got on the map not with wildly overpaying a coach more than the going rate but upgrading their facilities and having a recruiting base in an easier conference . The quicker fans let go of the idea that you can purchase a big time coach to come here the better off they'll be , it's not going to happen . If UK was in a pudding soft conference then it would be possible because the coach could see a path to success .

But when you have no in state recruiting comparatively , toughest conference in the history of mankind , almost no positive history , why would a proven coach take that many obstacles on ? When again he could get just as much money at a school that has half of those impediments , not going to happen .

 

[akaukswoosh]

Texas threw an ungodly amount at Saban. He didn't take it. Doing that won't work at UK if it didn't work for Texas. It makes sense in theory, but when you're already making $5-10 million per year money isn't what you're concerned about anymore.

That's right.

 

[CatsCats78]

I think facilities are very important for recruiting and long term success of the program. And we could throw an absurd amount of of money at Saban, Myer, etc and they wouldn't budge, no way. But if you throw that same absurd amount of money at the second or third tier "name" coaches, who's to say they wouldn't be able to pass it up? Chris Peterson, Tom Hermon, Mark Helfrich, David Cutcliffe, Pat Fitzgerald, Lane Kiffin. Back the Brinks Truck up to them and I bet at least one would bite.

 

[Xception]

^^^ one of those may come but there's no guarantee of success with them like a Saban or Meyer and if you're going to set a universal record for pay then you should expect that it's a sure thing .

 

[sluggercatfan]

Do not remember the caller's name but he was 100% on point before MJ interrupted him per usual. Hopefully the caller sees this thread and chimes in, no idea if they are a poster. Anyway....

...the gist of the call was we throw an absurd amount of money at a name coach. The example was Urban Meyer. Caller argued that instead of putting all the money into the facilities as we just did, we should have offered a proven winner something financially they couldn't rationally refuse. Matt's counterpoints were that A.) We couldn't do that because Calipari would then demand his salary be doubled because he would not stand for being at Kentucky while making less than the football coach and B.) that investing in the facilities was more important than paying a proven big time winner, because you just never know how long they'll last, and that you don't build a program around a coach but get the core foundation in place and then find the coach who fits your plan.

Both of those points are patently absurd. First, unless Matt has been privy to a conversation with Cal explicitly stating he expects that, I have no idea why he would care in the slightest about the football coach's salary. Frankly I don't care if he does, Cal can walk then if we are bringing in the next Nick Saban. A winning football program means 10 times more financially to a university than basketball; even at Kentucky. I also sincerely doubt Cal would leave because (like 99.9% of collegiate basketball coaches) he made less than the football coach. The moment Kentucky football won big time we'd convert just like everyone else in the country. Just look at Louisville.

Secondly, the facilities argument....I wanted to bang my head against the wall. Look no further than the basketball team right here, or Louisville and Tennessee football for examples of why that is completely false. Tubby (at the end due to his assitants) and Gillispie both had a terrible run of recruiting because no players wanted to play for them. Phil Fulmer at the end at Tennessee, Steve Kragthorpe at Louisville, hell even Mike Shula and Mike Dubose at Alabama....All had issues winning because they couldn't recruit well, and they couldn't recruit because players didn't want to play for them. Lane Kiffin, Calipari, Saban, Petrino all IMMEDIATELY walked into HC positions and recruited at elite levels with the exact same facilities their failed predecessors had because they were proven winners with a name that players loved and respected. Facilities only show that we're serious about a given sport, and in the Olympic sports that's nice. In the arms race SEC yes we have to have them. But a Nick Saban could do just as well here as he could at Alabama, or did at LSU or Michigan State. The facilities do not win games or win players commitments, the coaching staff does every single time. If anything the facilities attract coaches, as it shows your true commitment to their given sport. Ask Rich Brooks why he retired when he did. Get a clue KSR.

Not true because the bb players live in the best facility in the country... The practice facility is second to none as is their locker room at Rupp. That is all that matters to the kids... Arena amenities mean nothing to them. Coaches and player facilities go hand in hand

 

[sluggercatfan]

Also, let's ask ourselves why these top coaches allegedly won't even consider us. Obviously if we're willing to pony up $12 million a year for Stoops not to coach then money isn't an issue. The fans have shown they will show up at Commonwealth for remotely decent football. Lexington and the surrounding area is a beautiful place to live. Coaches are born competitors, so it's not an issue of history. The issue has always been the administration.

 

[sluggercatfan]

Also, let's ask ourselves why these top coaches allegedly won't even consider us. Obviously if we're willing to pony up $12 million a year for Stoops not to coach then money isn't an issue. The fans have shown they will show up at Commonwealth for remotely decent football. Lexington and the surrounding area is a beautiful place to live. Coaches are born competitors, so it's not an issue of history. The issue has always been the administration.

Will also get instantly behind someone they are excited about... 50k for first spring game and I think 35 k for the second

 

[shutzhund]

Top coaches go where the players are or can be gotten and the administration is pro major sports. The money will always be there. Strike three on UK getting a top coach. :zzz:

 

[*Bleedingblue*]

If throwing an absurd amount of money at a name coach was enough to get the coach, other teams would do it more often. The reality is, for the UKs and Vandys and Purdues of the world (not to mention midmajors), it's rarely going to entice to true heavy hitters here anyway. They'll just get an absurd amount of money thrown at them from LSU or Alabama or Texas and they're going to go there, and not here.

Bama threw money at Saban when they hired him. Made waves all over college ball when they did that. We made waves when we hired Cal and the amount of money we paid him.

Their is more than one good coach out their among the coaching landscape to be picked from.

 

[Myotis]

Texas threw an ungodly amount at Saban. He didn't take it. Doing that won't work at UK if it didn't work for Texas. It makes sense in theory, but when you're already making $5-10 million per year money isn't what you're concerned about anymore.

Exactly. Once you're into the millions per year, it's CONTINUING TO WIN that's going to drive coaches. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY at the top of the coaching game is going to come here "because they love a challenge..." It's a perfect catch-22. No one already established has any good reason to come here, and anybody who will won't have the name recognition it would take to out-recruit the rest of the SEC. Except for those under clouds of scandal, such as Briles and Petrino, who are sorely limited in who will give them another chance. And UK will never take that risk. UK has already suffered the "death penalty" once, nearly got it again, and the administration is taking no chances on being a three-time loser. (and yes, I know there have been other sanctions, such as Curci's, but I'm talking major violations here)

The SEC is the albatross around UK's neck. The money and prestige (if you call get thumped year-in and year-out by the best teams in the country prestigious) are too good to let go of, and the competition for coaches as well as recruits is stacked against them.

Plus what Florida and LSU did 25 years ago is not necessarily relevant today. The SEC was good, then, but nothing like it is now. The struggle to overcome what's already here is much harder.

And it doesn't impress me that VT, UofL, Oregon and other schools may have quickly become winners after getting a good coach. They didn't do it in anything like the modern SEC.

 

[LadyCaytIL]

you definitely want the facilities first........... that might actually help lure in a better coach.

throw 4 mil a year at Brohm........ he'd be a nut job not to take it with our new facilities and the talent level Stoops has in place for him. All Brohm would have to do is recruit a few defensive juco's

 

[Saguaro Cat]

Urban Meyer left Florida after winning eight games. Saban because of nine win slump. How long they going to stick around Kentucky.

It's not about money. It's winning and doing it quick. The guys worth 10 million or more aren't coming here. The coaches that move for money, we wouldn't want.

 

[olblue]

Exactly. Once you're into the millions per year, it's CONTINUING TO WIN that's going to drive coaches. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY at the top of the coaching game is going to come here "because they love a challenge..." It's a perfect catch-22. No one already established has any good reason to come here, and anybody who will won't have the name recognition it would take to out-recruit the rest of the SEC. Except for those under clouds of scandal, such as Briles and Petrino, who are sorely limited in who will give them another chance. And UK will never take that risk. UK has already suffered the "death penalty" once, nearly got it again, and the administration is taking no chances on being a three-time loser. (and yes, I know there have been other sanctions, such as Curci's, but I'm talking major violations here)

The SEC is the albatross around UK's neck. The money and prestige (if you call get thumped year-in and year-out by the best teams in the country prestigious) are too good to let go of, and the competition for coaches as well as recruits is stacked against them.

Plus what Florida and LSU did 25 years ago is not necessarily relevant today. The SEC was good, then, but nothing like it is now. The struggle to overcome what's already here is much harder.

And it doesn't impress me that VT, UofL, Oregon and other schools may have quickly become winners after getting a good coach. They didn't do it in anything like the modern SEC.

Actually, the SECE has been historically week for several years now.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

It would be nice, but it will never happen.

I also think the OP is a bit ignorant in thinking that if football won big UK basketball would be an afterthought and UK would be JUST a football school. If UK football got good, UK would be a co-sport campus there...with equal support for both.

I agree with MJ that Cal and the football coach would make about the same if we did actually throw out a big number and get a good coach.

 

[andreIGUODOLLAsigns4UK]

I've been saying we need to throw an absurd amount of money at an HC for awhile now as supposed to paying stoops a lot of money then having to pay his buyout while we pay for our next HC. If we can spend 100's of millions on facility upgrades we should be able to throw an absurd amount of money at a proven HC. Look at it this way. We get a big time winner and give him all the facilities the man could ever dream of. And we'll profit so much more than we do now by giving stoops these facilities that we'd actually be making money by throwing an absurd amount at a proven winner as apposed to a stoops poops like coordinator.

 

[BBBLazing]

All of you "throw money at a coach" people are crazy. Who takes this job? I've read give Saban $20 million and I've read give some up and coming coach $x million. How does that change where we are? First, Saban, or similar coaches, are not willing to come here and lose their opportunity to win. Why leave Alabama, FSU, LSU, etc where recruiting is easy to come somewhere where recruiting is really hard? You all act like we are just "rebuilding." We are building. We have never been good. In my lifetime, 2 coaches have left UK for other jobs that were better. The rest were fired, asked to leave and acted like they weren't, or retired. Bear Bryant was one, we've all heard of him. The other was Guy Morris, who probably wish he had stayed, because the last I heard he was an OLine coach at a high school in Lexington. UK is not an easy job. It is where careers die. Bill Curry was national coach of the year the year we hired him. For everyone that says "pay a good coach' let that sink in. No one wants this job. Rich Brooks once said "I wasn't the first person they offered this job to, if they don't like the way I'm coaching, tell them good luck." That was after getting killed and a 2-9 season I think. I've supported UK for a long time and will continue to, but, I'm not sure it is possible considering that it takes a great recruiter and a great coach for us to succeed. I'm proud of the recruiting we are doing, but disappointed in the coaching. I don't think anyone capable of doing both is dumb enough to take this job. I hope I am wrong. Go Cats. No more excuses.

 

[Greasy Creak Mafia]

I think an independent consultant could analyze the program and come up with reasonable solution to the issues we face. Stick around for a half a season or so then report their findings. Maybe Stoops is getting in his OCs way, maybe Elliot is a train crash. Maybe it's an issue we do not want to face head on I know that a recruiter has an easier sell with the training center and a good side line coach able to adjust and adapt can win 6 or 7 games a year here and that's enough to get a statue. Win 10 or better once and your a hero . There are those who are up n coming coaches who can win here enough to consistently get to Memphis or Nashville and even better on good years. If Gruden or Briles won't take the job then give us a coach who has at least a history of adjustment and competent side line calls.

 

[CB3UK]

What happens when your $10 million a year coach goes 7-5?

We fire him and finally call ourself a football school because we will finally get it that that shouldn't be acceptable or the ceiling at a school like Kentucky.

Also a lot of you are missing the caller's point. You pony up we'll say $100 mil/5. Alabam, Texas, Notre Dame don't go close to that because they don't have to. If we jump the gun and do it we CAN get someone here. That's what I meant when I said absurd, not just topping the existing threshold. That's what a lot of y'all are missing here.

 

[CB3UK]

It would be nice, but it will never happen.

I also think the OP is a bit ignorant in thinking that if football won big UK basketball would be an afterthought and UK would be JUST a football school.

Well, I think you're ignorant for misconstruing my words because I didn't say it would be an afterthought, but that we would be football first like everyone else. I also think this portion of the fan base who just accepts defeat and that it won't happen are part of the problem because they fail to put the pressure on the administration with expectations that anything REAL be done about it. Nothing ever changed on this planet because people refused to shake things up and try something newm

 

[BlueRaider22]

you definitely want the facilities first........... that might actually help lure in a better coach.

throw 4 mil a year at Brohm........ he'd be a nut job not to take it with our new facilities and the talent level Stoops has in place for him. All Brohm would have to do is recruit a few defensive juco's

I don't think the timelines match up. Brohm is likely going to be picked up by another program after this yr.....and Stoops (with his contract) is likely to stay here for one more yr. if you want Brohm you better hope he stays at WKU for another yr.

 

[allabouttheUK]

Also, let's ask ourselves why these top coaches allegedly won't even consider us. Obviously if we're willing to pony up $12 million a year for Stoops not to coach then money isn't an issue. The fans have shown they will show up at Commonwealth for remotely decent football. Lexington and the surrounding area is a beautiful place to live. Coaches are born competitors, so it's not an issue of history. The issue has always been the administration.

Because they don't want to risk their careers at a never has been. They have easier jobs at places with long lasting tradition, facilities on par with ours, and location, location, location. UK is not USC(west), it's not UCLA, it's not Bama, Its not Texas, it's not even UGA.

Pick a successful power school and I guarantee that each one of them has something built in that UK lacks. THAT is part of the reason why a big name has never and probably never will come to UK.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Football simply matters more no matter what our fan base tries to convince itself of.

First, it matters more to you. Look at your pic. It is unlikely to ever matter more than basketball to the majority of UK fans. Second, naw, pay differences dont bother coaches, I wish you could ask Bear about leaving UK.

I find your entire theory sophomoric at best for myriad reasons. It won't work, it is irresponsible and it would force up coaching salaries from Cal to the rest of the sports world. These guys dont live in a vacuum.

 

[KYCAT78]

A established coach is not coming here no matter how much money you throw at him. The only hope we have at getting a proven Coach is taking one with some baggage. If we choose to not take a Coach with baggage we have to try and find a up and coming Coach. Get lucky with somebody like Franklin when Vandy hired him or Petrino when UL hired him from Auburn. We could have hired Dabo Sweene, hiring a Coach is a crap shoot and basically we keep rolling craps.

 

[STUCKNBIG10]

It would be nice, but it will never happen.

I also think the OP is a bit ignorant in thinking that if football won big UK basketball would be an afterthought and UK would be JUST a football school. If UK football got good, UK would be a co-sport campus there...with equal support for both.

I agree with MJ that Cal and the football coach would make about the same if we did actually throw out a big number and get a good coach.

The OP didn't say that. You're mischaracterizing what he said. He said that UK would go football mad just like every other big-time school in the country.

 

[BlueBallz_rivals30790]

Saban doesn't do it alone. In addition to his $20 mil/yr salary, you are also going to have to pay out a staff. You'd probably need another $20 mil just to get assistants here.

 

[Xception]

The OP didn't say that. You're mischaracterizing what he said. He said that UK would go football mad just like every other big-time school in the country.

Op said we would convert like the rest of the country , meaning football would be our first priority . That's laughable because it wouldn't happen , families have long standing traditions supporting basketball and in no way would that be second fiddle to fb . Unless you only care about football , then maybe it does to that much smaller group .

 

[RackOps]

We fire him and finally call ourself a football school because we will finally get it that that shouldn't be acceptable or the ceiling at a school like Kentucky.

Also a lot of you are missing the caller's point. You pony up we'll say $100 mil/5. Alabam, Texas, Notre Dame don't go close to that because they don't have to. If we jump the gun and do it we CAN get someone here. That's what I meant when I said absurd, not just topping the existing threshold. That's what a lot of y'all are missing here.

No, you're missing the point.

The reason we can't get rid of Stoops right now is because he's got a big contract.

If you have a $20 million dollar a year coach that you fire after....say, 4 years, you owe him $20 million dollars that you can't pay your next coach.

And let's not forget that we aren't playing with monopoly money. This is actual state money from one of the poorest states in the country....and offering $20 million dollars (or 10, or 5, for that matter) to someone who has not proven he can win HERE is irresponsible at best.

I'm all for paying whatever we need to do to keep a successful coach here, because it pays for itself, but throwing gobs of money to a "great coach" is what got us in this mess in the first place.