Marquee Matchups

[SonnyAbeFan]

What’s the consensus (just kidding, there will never be consensus) on the growing issue of wrestlers or coaches choosing to avoid marquee matchups during the regular season? I tuned in to see Alirez vs. Demas today but wasn’t terribly surprised to see Demas not wrestling. But I was disappointed. Of course, Flo promoted the matchup, but the letdown is becoming commonplace.

I guess there was an issue the other day where Glory only wanted to wrestle Lee, and when they confirmed Lee wasn’t wrestling, they decided not to wrestle at all. That’s almost another issue altogether because Lee may not be 100%. If he’s 100%, then I think it’s BS to hold him out.

Cael always advocates for duals, but duals have got to be compelling for them to have any meaning. Cael is not one to avoid marquee matchups, but if there is any reason, he’ll hold his guy back. I understand because it’s all about March, but this “trend” is harming the sport, in my opinion.

And when a guy goes up or down in weight to create a marquee matchup, that does as much for the sport as anything. And perhaps NIL is the way to reward guys for growing the sport at risk to themselves and getting nothing for it.

What do you think? Troubling trend or overreaction?

 

[NittanyChris]

I posted on this earlier. I agree that it is a problem for the sport. It’s really deflating to get excited about a big matchup only to have it not happen time and time again.

No one has offered a great solution yet, at least from what I’ve read. Making the regular season Duals more important is one thought, but if the marquee matchup would not affect the overall Dual outcome, then that is less impactful. Another possibility is increasing the importance of the number of regular season matches one has when it comes to seeding at NCAAs. Just for example, if a guy is 15-2 at the end of the regular season, maybe he gets seeded above a guy who is 8-0? Just throwing some ideas out there, but I don’t know if they’d help. I do agree it’s a problem, though, and one that shouldn’t lightly be set aside.

Anyone else have any ideas?

 

[SonnyAbeFan]

If the topic has already been addressed, my apologies. It just seems to be a continuing and worsening trend. I think it should affect seeding.

 

[nerfstate]

Willie and Corby dove into this this morning on their show. They are advocating for replacing the conference tournament w/ a points system to qualify for nationals. It's an interesting idea that I need to think about some more before I form an opinion.

 

[amattaro]

Willie and Corby dove into this this morning on their show. They are advocating for replacing the conference tournament w/ a points system to qualify for nationals. It's an interesting idea that I need to think about some more before I form an opinion.

Point system would need to cover the regular season and conference tournament, as not all guys get a chance to square off in the regular season, and if you push the entirety of qualifying for nationals to regular season, you might as well cancel the conference tournament.

 

[watoos]

It isn't just the regular season where ducks occur, it happens at the conference tourney also in certain circumstances.

 

[nerfstate]

Point system would need to cover the regular season and conference tournament, as not all guys get a chance to square off in the regular season, and if you push the entirety of qualifying for nationals to regular season, you might as well cancel the conference tournament.

I think they're basically saying to cancel the conference tournament. Earn points in the dual season toward a certain percenage of potential points to establish qualification and seed, or don't compete in the offseason.

 

[a_mshaffer]

point system combined with Conf tourneys could be an answer. Should pay the price for ducking but you have to be sympathetic for those that are truly more than dinged up. Two semester sport does enter into play as it does appear that even our views is to be ready come January. Too bad as I assume the wrestlers do want to wrestle!

 

[RoarLions1]

Disagree totally. Coaches must be allowed to manage their wrestlers, and every missed start by a wrestler isn't ducking. Minor tweaks, illness, discipline, health of a wrestler, heck even the consequence (discipline) for bad behavior, plus other situations I'm sure, could cause a missed start -- all of them legit reasons and in most cases situations that fans don't know nor have the right to know.

Since he's been used as an example, let's take Spencer Lee. Two missing ACL's and the top prize for an individual in college wrestling is the National Championship. If he was our guy, we'd all be fine with keeping him healthy for a run in March. Heck, I'm the opposition and don't begrudge Iowa's decisions for the young man.

Even if I was for some sort of system, how in the world could this monstrosity be implemented. Then multiply it times 40, as that's about the number of D1 sports.

 

[amattaro]

I think they're basically saying to cancel the conference tournament. Earn points in the dual season toward a certain percenage of potential points to establish qualification and seed, or don't compete in the offseason.

Seems to encourage:
1) Wrestlers who are hurt early in the season risking bigger injury
2) Wrestlers who are hurt early in the season being mathematically eliminated in, say, mid February. Then they potentially punt on the remainder of the season, exacerbating the problem.

That’s just like my opinion man.

 

[SonnyAbeFan]

Disagree totally. Coaches must be allowed to manage their wrestlers, and every missed start by a wrestler isn't ducking. Minor tweaks, illness, discipline, health of a wrestler, heck even the consequence (discipline) for bad behavior, plus other situations I'm sure, could cause a missed start -- all of them legit reasons and in most cases situations that fans don't know nor have the right to know.

Since he's been used as an example, let's take Spencer Lee. Two missing ACL's and the top prize for an individual in college wrestling is the National Championship. If he was our guy, we'd all be fine with keeping him healthy for a run in March. Heck, I'm the opposition and don't begrudge Iowa's decisions for the young man.

Even if I was for some sort of system, how in the world could this monstrosity be implemented. Then multiply it times 40, as that's about the number of D1 sports.

In some respects, Spencer is a good and bad example. Bad: He's still recovering from injury. Good: Let's say Spencer goes into the B1G tourney at 3-0, does he get the 1 seed? I say no. Let's say he goes into NCAAs at 7-0, does he get the 1 seed? No way.

But I don't think Spencer is the issue. I'm a wrestling fan. The only reason I tuned into Oklahoma-N. Colorado was for Demas-Alirez. BUT I would watch the entire dual. And that's good for wrestling because a PSU fan just watched a non PSU dual. Demas didn't wrestle, and I don't know why (might be legit), but next time, I probably won't tune in. I remember when Seth Gross wrestled up against Bryce Meredith a few years ago in a meaningless dual. I became a bigger fan of the sport and of those two wrestlers that night, and that translates to dollars when that happens often enough.

When you think about it, why should any star wrestler more than a few matches until January or even February, and why wrestle another stud anyway? There's more downside than upside. Maybe NIL is part of the "solution" (can't be sponsored if don't wrestle), but then again, guys who win NCAA titles are the most valuable, regardless of if they wrestle in November or December. I just think if you don't wrestle (injury or other), you get a lower seed, which makes your road a little tougher.

 

[Ernie Ladd]

Seriously, I would like to hear what the actual would-be participants think. As we are speaking about highly competitive individuals, let’s find out what they want to do.

 

[Reiterate]

If the product isn't the best possible at all levels people won't support it.

 

[kavija66]

If the product isn't the best possible at all levels people won't support it.

Depends on the sport. The NFL is a money-making behemoth that doesn't suffer one bit when teams trot out guys like Mason Rudolph, Colt McCoy, or David Blough.

Wrestling is a bit different since it's so incentivized to promote individual matchups. This will be unpopular, but if coaches want to rest their best wrestlers for a meaningless dual in November so that they can be healthy in March, I have no problem with that.

 

[NothingMeaningful]

Depends on the sport. The NFL is a money-making behemoth that doesn't suffer one bit when teams trot out guys like Mason Rudolph, Colt McCoy, or David Blough.

Wrestling is a bit different since it's so incentivized to promote individual matchups. This will be unpopular, but if coaches want to rest their best wrestlers for a meaningless dual in November so that they can be healthy in March, I have no problem with that.

Are any of the matches next month in Florida "meaningful?" Can we expect a bunch of ducks everywhere?

 

[kavija66]

Are any of the matches next month in Florida "meaningful?" Can we expect a bunch of ducks everywhere?

Hey, your username checks out!

I don't know how the coaches will view it. If I had to guess, I'd say 'most' squads will put their optimal lineups on the mat, assuming their teams are 100% healthy. I would view 'meaningful' matches as those within your conference since those are primarily used to determine seeding at the conference tournaments. YMMV with my definition though.

And let me be clear: I have no issue if coaches are sitting out a wrestler for health reasons. I want to see all wrestlers compete if they're healthy, and as competitive as the wrestlers and coaches are, I'd be surprised if anyone was willingly ducking a match to protect seeds. Not saying it would never happen, I just think most are too competitive to worry about those things. But again, this is just a fan's opinion here.

 

[NittanyChris]

Hey, your username checks out!

I don't know how the coaches will view it. If I had to guess, I'd say 'most' squads will put their optimal lineups on the mat, assuming their teams are 100% healthy. I would view 'meaningful' matches as those within your conference since those are primarily used to determine seeding at the conference tournaments. YMMV with my definition though.

And let me be clear: I have no issue if coaches are sitting out a wrestler for health reasons. I want to see all wrestlers compete if they're healthy, and as competitive as the wrestlers and coaches are, I'd be surprised if anyone was willingly ducking a match to protect seeds. Not saying it would never happen, I just think most are too competitive to worry about those things. But again, this is just a fan's opinion here.

All fair, but a few counterpoints. Wrestling is a brutal sport, we all know this. So the question is how often is any wrestler “100% healthy”? I’d guess that’s fairly rare and if a guy sat every time he didn’t meet that standard, he wouldn’t be on the mat very often.

Secondly, I don’t think it’s the wrestlers behind sitting out. Pretty damn sure that all the wrestlers want to go given their competitive natures. It’s the coaches’ competitive spirits that are odds with this because their job is to win in March and to have their guys as healthy as possible at that time, it is necessary to sit them sometimes.

Finally, I really don’t think it can be argued that this is not bad for the sport and just shrug it off like it’s nothing. For all the team titles, wrestling is an individual sport as well. Fans want to see the big matchups. Who can blame them? To be disappointed time and again when these fail to happen is bad for the sport.

The question remains, how do you increase the importance of regular season matches/duals to deincentivize sitting guys? I haven’t seen a great answer yet. I hope someone comes up with one someday.

 

[Ac98]

I’d use a team’s record at a weight as a criteria for NCAA seeding. Make top ranked guys who’ve ducked good opponents carry the losses of their backups with them into the post season.