National Duals Retrospective

[Goggles Paisano]

Well once again the Zen master Cael is playing 4-D chess, while everyone else ....

Despite the criticisms tied to growing the sport, Cael turned his back on a guaranteed 6 figure payday and the accolades that would have gone along with it, and quietly went about his business building a team and a process focused on peaking in March.

Most teams haven't even solidified a roster in early November let alone getting their kids in tournament shape

tOSU Ryan - came in with a team firing on all cylinders with maybe in the best conditioning in the nation, and now look at them. Three wheels have fallen off that racing car, and the rest are looking a bit more tired than they did in November ( excl. Mendez).

IOWA TnT - Well they have completely imploded. Endine ends up leaving the program over an injury, Ferrari is out long term, guys like Keiter just look slow and uninspired. Even their most talented wrestler IMO MC now has 3 losses. Only Drake seems to have dug him self out of a slump to look more like himself and somewhat competitive.

Oky State - well how beat down can you get wrestling a Big 12 schedule ? Really, the Big10 grind pushes you to the limit and maybe this is proof positive of why Big10 teams in particular might consider forgoing the event.

When your November National duals champion gets smacked down 36-5 limping into February, it's pretty hard to puff up your chest an claim anything legit tied to the event crowning the best dual team in the land.

I think I heard that next year the N. Duals will be closer to Christmas. So what. Cael had it right in spades once again. We dishes two bullets with Barr and Nagao, if anything proof positive that even a week managed season has it's risks. We now appear to be on the typical escalating development curve as we near entering the post season.

It will be interesting to see if a couple more teams punt next year. Aside from money, there is little to be gained with that kind of grind that early in the year.

 

[Joejitsu]

yeah... maybe National Duals needs to be a summer event???

 

[Kingslayer]

Well once again the Zen master Cael is playing 4-D chess, while everyone else ....

Despite the criticisms tied to growing the sport, Cael turned his back on a guaranteed 6 figure payday and the accolades that would have gone along with it, and quietly went about his business building a team and a process focused on peaking in March.

Most teams haven't even solidified a roster in early November let alone getting their kids in tournament shape

tOSU Ryan - came in with a team firing on all cylinders with maybe in the best conditioning in the nation, and now look at them. Three wheels have fallen off that racing car, and the rest are looking a bit more tired than they did in November ( excl. Mendez).

IOWA TnT - Well they have completely imploded. Endine ends up leaving the program over an injury, Ferrari is out long term, guys like Keiter just look slow and uninspired. Even their most talented wrestler IMO MC now has 3 losses. Only Drake seems to have dug him self out of a slump to look more like himself and somewhat competitive.

Oky State - well how beat down can you get wrestling a Big 12 schedule ? Really, the Big10 grind pushes you to the limit and maybe this is proof positive of why Big10 teams in particular might consider forgoing the event.

When your November National duals champion gets smacked down 36-5 limping into February, it's pretty hard to puff up your chest an claim anything legit tied to the event crowning the best dual team in the land.

I think I heard that next year the N. Duals will be closer to Christmas. So what. Cael had it right in spades once again. We dishes two bullets with Barr and Nagao, if anything proof positive that even a week managed season has it's risks. We now appear to be on the typical escalating development curve as we near entering the post season.

It will be interesting to see if a couple more teams punt next year. Aside from money, there is little to be gained with that kind of grind that early in the year.

This doesn’t make a lot of sense , our guys are definitely in tournament shape given how many wrestled at the most brutal tournament of the year in Sept / Oct (world championships). . Find it hard that our guys would go from elite conditioning in Oct but in November not in tournament condition . No offenses but you are a dumb ***

 

[PSUer89]

This doesn’t make a lot of sense , our guys are definitely in tournament shape given how many wrestled at the most brutal tournament of the year in Sept / Oct (world championships). . Find it hard that our guys would go from elite conditioning in Oct but in November not in tournament condition . No offenses but you are a dumb ***

Having a bad day? Don’t bring it to the rest of us. You’re crapping on people everywhere

 

[WV lion]

This doesn’t make a lot of sense , our guys are definitely in tournament shape given how many wrestled at the most brutal tournament of the year in Sept / Oct (world championships). . Find it hard that our guys would go from elite conditioning in Oct but in November not in tournament condition . No offenses but you are a dumb ***

You can't maintain that level of conditioning year round you body needs a break at some point.

 

[mcpat]

It would be interesting to analyze the injury rate of the teams that wrestled it vs those that did not.

But the thing I really don’t understand is if PSU’s dominance is hurting the sport as many others allege, how would showing up and beating the other top teams by 30 points grow the sport?

 

[TwoJoints]

Well once again the Zen master Cael is playing 4-D chess, while everyone else ....

Despite the criticisms tied to growing the sport, Cael turned his back on a guaranteed 6 figure payday and the accolades that would have gone along with it, and quietly went about his business building a team and a process focused on peaking in March.

Most teams haven't even solidified a roster in early November let alone getting their kids in tournament shape

tOSU Ryan - came in with a team firing on all cylinders with maybe in the best conditioning in the nation, and now look at them. Three wheels have fallen off that racing car, and the rest are looking a bit more tired than they did in November ( excl. Mendez).

IOWA TnT - Well they have completely imploded. Endine ends up leaving the program over an injury, Ferrari is out long term, guys like Keiter just look slow and uninspired. Even their most talented wrestler IMO MC now has 3 losses. Only Drake seems to have dug him self out of a slump to look more like himself and somewhat competitive.

Oky State - well how beat down can you get wrestling a Big 12 schedule ? Really, the Big10 grind pushes you to the limit and maybe this is proof positive of why Big10 teams in particular might consider forgoing the event.

When your November National duals champion gets smacked down 36-5 limping into February, it's pretty hard to puff up your chest an claim anything legit tied to the event crowning the best dual team in the land.

I think I heard that next year the N. Duals will be closer to Christmas. So what. Cael had it right in spades once again. We dishes two bullets with Barr and Nagao, if anything proof positive that even a week managed season has it's risks. We now appear to be on the typical escalating development curve as we near entering the post season.

It will be interesting to see if a couple more teams punt next year. Aside from money, there is little to be gained with that kind of grind that early in the year.

Maybe a small point but many of the teams which chose to participate were teams that Penn State had on its dual meet schedule. Not only was such an event at the wrong end of the season, what sense did it make to compete in a dual meet competition against the same teams scheduled for later in the year?

 

[Still in State Colllege]

I really look at National Duals as a blip. It didn't matter good or bad for the teams that participated. Cannon didn't get hurt because of that. He got hurt because in January someone wrenched on his knee. Looking back in a vacuum seems like it works but it doesn't. It is a combat sport where guys get hurt all the time. It's no different than going to an early season tournament where guys four times in two days.

As a coach you just have to decide how many times you want to wrestle the same people in once season.

 

[Wrestleknownothing]

Well once again the Zen master Cael is playing 4-D chess, while everyone else ....

Despite the criticisms tied to growing the sport, Cael turned his back on a guaranteed 6 figure payday and the accolades that would have gone along with it, and quietly went about his business building a team and a process focused on peaking in March.

Most teams haven't even solidified a roster in early November let alone getting their kids in tournament shape

tOSU Ryan - came in with a team firing on all cylinders with maybe in the best conditioning in the nation, and now look at them. Three wheels have fallen off that racing car, and the rest are looking a bit more tired than they did in November ( excl. Mendez).

IOWA TnT - Well they have completely imploded. Endine ends up leaving the program over an injury, Ferrari is out long term, guys like Keiter just look slow and uninspired. Even their most talented wrestler IMO MC now has 3 losses. Only Drake seems to have dug him self out of a slump to look more like himself and somewhat competitive.

Oky State - well how beat down can you get wrestling a Big 12 schedule ? Really, the Big10 grind pushes you to the limit and maybe this is proof positive of why Big10 teams in particular might consider forgoing the event.

When your November National duals champion gets smacked down 36-5 limping into February, it's pretty hard to puff up your chest an claim anything legit tied to the event crowning the best dual team in the land.

I think I heard that next year the N. Duals will be closer to Christmas. So what. Cael had it right in spades once again. We dishes two bullets with Barr and Nagao, if anything proof positive that even a week managed season has it's risks. We now appear to be on the typical escalating development curve as we near entering the post season.

It will be interesting to see if a couple more teams punt next year. Aside from money, there is little to be gained with that kind of grind that early in the year.

What language are you speaking? What does "aside from the money" even mean?

 

[mcpat]

For anyone that has run in their lives… you rarely get injured during the hard workouts or long runs. But on stupid stuff like stepping off a curb wrong when your legs are so worn down from the hard workouts.

 

[manatree]

For anyone that has run in their lives… you rarely get injured during the hard workouts or long runs. But on stupid stuff like stepping off a curb wrong when your legs are so worn down from the hard workouts.

The same applies to fat, aging folks like myself. Well, except we’re worn down from life, not hard workouts.

 

[SleepyLion]

The same applies to fat, aging folks like myself. Well, except we’re worn down from life, not hard workouts.

Yeah, I screwed up my rotate cuff rolling over on the couch. Not at the gym or having a catch.

 

[Goggles Paisano]

What language are you speaking? What does "aside from the money" even mean?

I tend to speak a version of olde English intermixed with slang and severely flawed grammar. I read it again and it still makes perfect sense to me.

 

[El_Jefe]

You can't maintain that level of conditioning year round you body needs a break at some point.

 

[El_Jefe]

I really look at National Duals as a blip. It didn't matter good or bad for the teams that participated. Cannon didn't get hurt because of that. He got hurt because in January someone wrenched on his knee. Looking back in a vacuum seems like it works but it doesn't. It is a combat sport where guys get hurt all the time. It's no different than going to an early season tournament where guys four times in two days.

As a coach you just have to decide how many times you want to wrestle the same people in once season.

Yes, same reason Cael never took PSU to Midlands, which was basically the December Big Ten Tournament (at least before Son of Midlands in Iowa).

 

[jstross]

The Holy Grail is Nationals and winning a national championship. Anything that could impact that is just a distraction. Duals tournaments are a good thing, but they don't determine the true championship team. If they can be fit in without degrading the abiliy to peak in March then go for. I don't see how though

 

[yekrut321]

Yeah, I screwed up my rotate cuff rolling over on the couch. Not at the gym or having a catch.

Hey, don’t sell yourself short!! Being a top notch couch potato takes commitment and dedication!

 

[Pocono Lion]

Yeah, I screwed up my rotate cuff rolling over on the couch. Not at the gym or having a catch.

Same here, not rotator cuff but tore my meniscus half walking, half jogging to my car in a rainstorm.

 

[Snoopy226]

Don’t ignore the other major factor to PSU skipping National Duals. And in my opinion the main reason they skip it.

The guys running it consistently lobby for it to be THE team championship, turning the current Nationals into an individual only event. Their dream is a National Duals one weekend followed by individual Nationals shortly after. Cael has consistently lobbied against messing w the current tournament.

 

[Misalorales]

This doesn’t make a lot of sense , our guys are definitely in tournament shape given how many wrestled at the most brutal tournament of the year in Sept / Oct (world championships). . Find it hard that our guys would go from elite conditioning in Oct but in November not in tournament condition . No offenses but you are a dumb ***

The reason they didn't go to NDI was not because of conditioning. I'm not sure what you're even on about there. They likely, I don't know cael so I can't be sure, didn't go primarily because they had been freestyle focused all summer and into the fall. They were in shape BUT in order to keep them fresh for the folkstyle season they got a break. Makes total sense as they had been going hard since late spring for the international schedule,qualifiers and such. Not to mention it's common for guys to take a little while to transition back to folkstyle and hit their groove. Why risk a random loss in November for a guy who's likely needing a little break and reset for folkstyle? Use your head next time.

 

[Misalorales]

For anyone that has run in their lives… you rarely get injured during the hard workouts or long runs. But on stupid stuff like stepping off a curb wrong when your legs are so worn down from the hard workouts.

That and most people that get hurt running are middle aged people who took it up as a hobby and have absolutely no idea how they're supposed to hydrate,eat, stretch,warm up,cool down or how to run with proper form up and down inclines and whatnot. They don't buy proper shoes/insoles.They run too far or too consistently etc. But you're absolutely right, all of that leads to them doing something simple and then getting hurt. My mother ran marathons for years and I tried talking her out of it. She now visits the pain clinic rather often for a shot in her back...Shoulda been a swimmer hah

 

[JoeBagobagels]

This doesn’t make a lot of sense , our guys are definitely in tournament shape given how many wrestled at the most brutal tournament of the year in Sept / Oct (world championships). . Find it hard that our guys would go from elite conditioning in Oct but in November not in tournament condition . No offenses but you are a dumb ***

In top shape means you're close to regressing. Every athlete needs to peak. Penn State had many athletes in the world stage competing, and they needed to like wave down a little bit before they waved back up.

The national duels are stupid. They should go away.

 

[JoeBagobagels]

For anyone that has run in their lives… you rarely get injured during the hard workouts or long runs. But on stupid stuff like stepping off a curb wrong when your legs are so worn down from the hard workouts.

Try lifting now, I did quite well over the years, but I did my best when I actually hired a coach. Three brutal weeks of workouts and one week of wondering why I'm even in the gym to do this piddly stuff.

Funny thing is at the end of that week. It almost seemed a little bit tough to do the easy workouts. Then I would start the next week and it was back to the grind, and I seemed quite refreshed.

 

[Corby2]

And if Penn st would've went nothing changes So you think them going means they've a worse season?

 

[BaccaFarmer]

Well once again the Zen master Cael is playing 4-D chess, while everyone else ....

Despite the criticisms tied to growing the sport, Cael turned his back on a guaranteed 6 figure payday and the accolades that would have gone along with it, and quietly went about his business building a team and a process focused on peaking in March.

Most teams haven't even solidified a roster in early November let alone getting their kids in tournament shape

tOSU Ryan - came in with a team firing on all cylinders with maybe in the best conditioning in the nation, and now look at them. Three wheels have fallen off that racing car, and the rest are looking a bit more tired than they did in November ( excl. Mendez).

IOWA TnT - Well they have completely imploded. Endine ends up leaving the program over an injury, Ferrari is out long term, guys like Keiter just look slow and uninspired. Even their most talented wrestler IMO MC now has 3 losses. Only Drake seems to have dug him self out of a slump to look more like himself and somewhat competitive.

Oky State - well how beat down can you get wrestling a Big 12 schedule ? Really, the Big10 grind pushes you to the limit and maybe this is proof positive of why Big10 teams in particular might consider forgoing the event.

When your November National duals champion gets smacked down 36-5 limping into February, it's pretty hard to puff up your chest an claim anything legit tied to the event crowning the best dual team in the land.

I think I heard that next year the N. Duals will be closer to Christmas. So what. Cael had it right in spades once again. We dishes two bullets with Barr and Nagao, if anything proof positive that even a week managed season has it's risks. We now appear to be on the typical escalating development curve as we near entering the post season.

It will be interesting to see if a couple more teams punt next year. Aside from money, there is little to be gained with that kind of grind that early in the year.

Top flight analysis. Thanks!
National Duals is like a solution in search of a problem. Who ever finances this competition needs to re-brand it. Perhaps bring in some international collegians from Hosei University and Keio University from Japan plus a few Russian universities/academies.

 

[Scu88]

I loved watching the National Duals, and part of me wished PSU was there. But the #1 priority for the kids remains NCAA, world and Olympic titles, and wrestling remains 90% an individual sport. As much as us fans would like to to be a team sport, it’s just not.

 

[jack66]

A large part of our team was active in offseason events, and needed recovery.

As always, Cael puts the kids 1st.

 

[HOA242n!]

For anyone that has run in their lives… you rarely get injured during the hard workouts or long runs. But on stupid stuff like stepping off a curb wrong when your legs are so worn down from the hard workouts.

I've been an athlete all my life; all of my injuries have been stupid - non competitive, non trauma - events. My shoulders are toast from playing baseball year-round from age 4 to 16, powerlifting, swimming (triathlons), and now BJJ/Muay Thai/MMA. I had 100% labrum, rotator cuff, and biceps tear on my left arm repaired ~2yrs ago. The "incident" where I felt it was just picking up my son, although certainly the decades of other activities - compounding - were the cause. I actually have an MRI scheduled for tomorrow, pretty sure something in my other shoulder is torn. I've been rolling 3-days a week with little pain and no traumatic event. Woke up ~2 weeks ago with my shoulder/neck in severe pain. Two weeks of no activity and it has only gotten worse. Maybe it's just really bad bursitis. If they have to cut me open again, my plans for a BJJ black belt are done - shoulder issues are a death knell for grappling, especially for someone in their mid-40s..

College football, competitive powerlifting, triathlons for ~5yrs, and now combat sports seriously for 6yrs; zero major injuries from traumatic events from any of them. The worst was a torn meniscus from football, which kept me out less than 4 weeks. But, I've been in a perpetual state of near overtraining from some competitive venture for >30yrs which has at least contributed to breaking my back (3 compression fractures) on a leisurely bike ride, rupturing my achilles playing with my niece on a playground, breaking my wrist stumbling over a curb, and now destroying both my shoulders who-knows-how.

 

[Anon1683312534]

In top shape means you're close to regressing. Every athlete needs to peak. Penn State had many athletes in the world stage competing, and they needed to like wave down a little bit before they waved back up.

The national duels are stupid. They should go away.

I agree should have national wave invitational. Just jokingly, I think! Well I think sometimes.

 

[OldMatCoach]

It is a risk vs reward scenario. You get a solid look and feel for your opponents earlier in the season, but risk in injury in a tournament that really doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. It is often said that wrestling tougher competition improves your skills, which is no doubt true. Penn State has an advantage that many schools don't know that their practice room is filled with absolute hammers which provide competition equal to or tougher than those that they would've wrestled at the National Duals. I really think the value of attending such tournaments varies from year to year, depending upon the team that the coach has. In my coaching career, albeit at a much, much lower level, here in West Virginia, during the regular season it was often prudent to take my teams to Pennsylvania, northern Ohio, Indiana, and New Jersey during the regular season to face tougher competition. Then when we returned home, our matches in state actually seemed easy. It was a double edged sword, however, because occasionally some of my best wrestlers would become injured at one of these tougher events. My practice room could not provide the high level of competition that we got by traveling to other states and if we had not made those long trips, we would not have been as good. The practice room at Penn State is like a mini Big Ten championships every day, so Cael can let his guys become "battle tested" without leaving State College. Look at the lower weights as an example ... Luke, Marcus, Ono, Desmond, etc. roll every day with guys who are on a par with what they will face at season's end.

 

[SRATH]

Cael and Co will make the best decision given the health and depth of the squad after the international circuit. The money is nice, but winning is radically more important. We lose Levi. Desmond, Kasak, Henckel and Conner are AA caliber guys waiting to help. Ono, who knows, but he could very well factor into things too. The Cunningham Bros, Conner Pierce, Dalton Perry and others could contribute too.

OSU will be solid. Okie State will probably be the biggest challenge. Iowa, nope. Nebraska, nope.

In Cael We Trust

 

[JoeBagobagels]

That and most people that get hurt running are middle aged people who took it up as a hobby and have absolutely no idea how they're supposed to hydrate,eat, stretch,warm up,cool down or how to run with proper form up and down inclines and whatnot. They don't buy proper shoes/insoles.They run too far or too consistently etc. But you're absolutely right, all of that leads to them doing something simple and then getting hurt. My mother ran marathons for years and I tried talking her out of it. She now visits the pain clinic rather often for a shot in her back...Shoulda been a swimmer hah

I've lifted heavy all my life, but I've been very knowledgeable about rest and recovery. It's kept me pretty healthy over the years.

 

[HikeNatParks]

Shhh, @Goggles Paisano. Keep it down. Definitely don’t belittle this tournament. Not only is Cael a grandmaster for not going to NDI, he quietly enjoys that it exists and wants it to continue. Let all who seek the payday and trophy do so while Lions rest from summer freestyle and ease into a B1G dual season that is preparation enough for the only national valuation that matters.
Besides, it does provide many entertaining matches that this board, the 3C’s, and all Lion wrestlers can relax and watch.

 

[Nitlion1986]

Don’t ignore the other major factor to PSU skipping National Duals. And in my opinion the main reason they skip it.

The guys running it consistently lobby for it to be THE team championship, turning the current Nationals into an individual only event. Their dream is a National Duals one weekend followed by individual Nationals shortly after. Cael has consistently lobbied against messing w the current tournament.

The plea to assign the dual champion the title of NCAA team champion was a silly, but very serious movement led by Koll, Ryan and several others to validate the NWCA's dual tournament as something more than it was.
This dual tournament put together by Richison, OkieSt and Taylor so far seems to be AOK standing on their own. There doesn't appear to be some backdoor movement begging the NCAA to lend credibility to their tournament.
Cael, Brands and Smith led the charge to put an end to Koll's and Ryan's wrong headedness. This tournament, everybody but Cael seemed to support the idea with their participation. Considering PSU is going to enter the post season healthier then OSU and Iowa, best of luck changing Cael's mind.

 

[Misalorales]

I've lifted heavy all my life, but I've been very knowledgeable about rest and recovery. It's kept me pretty healthy over the years.

Nothing wrong with it IF you know what you're doing, especially in the rest and recovery area...I'm no health nut by any stretch of the imagination but I am very big on functional health. I ran a ton when I was younger, I lifted a good bit as well and still do to lesser extents. Now, I'm more focused on being able to hike *** up and down mountains for an elk or mule deer trip out west. I call it "pack mule shape". I may not be able to run like I used to or lift as much as I used to but I can strap a heavy load in a pack on my back and go forever

 

[Nitlion1986]

Nothing wrong with it IF you know what you're doing, especially in the rest and recovery area...I'm no health nut by any stretch of the imagination but I am very big on functional health. I ran a ton when I was younger, I lifted a good bit as well and still do to lesser extents. Now, I'm more focused on being able to hike *** up and down mountains for an elk or mule deer trip out west. I call it "pack mule shape". I may not be able to run like I used to or lift as much as I used to but I can strap a heavy load in a pack on my back and go forever

I don't run nor lift much anymore. I do push-ups, still do handstand against the wall push-ups and a little routine with dumbbells. My cardio is I take the dog for a walk through the woods that includes 2 climbs. I wear a 35 pound vest.
Sometimes I wear the vest and go up and down a significant hill.

 

[Snoopy226]

The plea to assign the dual champion the title of NCAA team champion was a silly, but very serious movement led by Koll, Ryan and several others to validate the NWCA's dual tournament as something more than it was.
This dual tournament put together by Richison, OkieSt and Taylor so far seems to be AOK standing on their own. There doesn't appear to be some backdoor movement begging the NCAA to lend credibility to their tournament.
Cael, Brands and Smith led the charge to put an end to Koll's and Ryan's wrong headedness. This tournament, everybody but Cael seemed to support the idea with their participation. Considering PSU is going to enter the post season healthier than aOSU and Iowa, best of luck changing Cael's mind.

I assume this is true and if so great news… but there still was/is a lot of chatter on social media about Dual Championship altering current format and this year w a fun Natty Duals gave it renewed focus.

If they put that silliness to bed I think there is a decent shot PSU participates is timing doesn’t suck w regard to Freestyle events.

 

[Nitlion1986]

I assume this is true and if so great news… but there still was/is a lot of chatter on social media about Dual Championship altering current format and this year w a fun Natty Duals gave it renewed focus.

If they put that silliness to bed I think there is a decent shot PSU participates is timing doesn’t suck w regard to Freestyle events.

There might be chatter from a fan group than lacks the ability to do anything but chatter. There isn't any chatter from anybody that I have seen, nor heard that has the credibility nor the push to try and make this tournament anything other than what it is labeled, an early season invite that generated an early season interest.
The push and credibility last time came from the coaches association and Koll and Ryan waited until Cael, Smith and Brands were not available for the coaches vote. Koll and Ryan also used false information (lied) about NCAA involvement.

 

[JoeBagobagels]

Nothing wrong with it IF you know what you're doing, especially in the rest and recovery area...I'm no health nut by any stretch of the imagination but I am very big on functional health. I ran a ton when I was younger, I lifted a good bit as well and still do to lesser extents. Now, I'm more focused on being able to hike *** up and down mountains for an elk or mule deer trip out west. I call it "pack mule shape". I may not be able to run like I used to or lift as much as I used to but I can strap a heavy load in a pack on my back and go forever

Let's say I'm close to the top of the curve with it. One neglected area is soft tissue health. That is something I've done since at college and I'm 62. I'm not athlete but I'm fairly strong for 62

 

[Nitlion1986]

I assume this is true and if so great news… but there still was/is a lot of chatter on social media about Dual Championship altering current format and this year w a fun Natty Duals gave it renewed focus.

If they put that silliness to bed I think there is a decent shot PSU participates is timing doesn’t suck w regard to Freestyle events.

I forgot to add. I don't see PSU participating anytime soon. Freestyle competitions are one reason and the second is it adds an additional vigorous competition that does little to nothing to benefit PSU.