Just affirms for me. Its a better version of "team competition" and a better TV product for that purpose.
National Duals should determine team champ
- Thread starter VakAttack
- Start date
oh ffs.
we lost another one.
we lost another one.
Lost me a while back on this one, brother. This event centers the team aspect. The big tournament centers the individuals.
and which one is a better barometer of best team?
and which one produces more fluky results?
you're advocating for the National Champion to be decided in a way that comes down to a single sequence or (bad) call.
it's irrational.
and which one produces more fluky results?
you're advocating for the National Champion to be decided in a way that comes down to a single sequence or (bad) call.
it's irrational.
Welcome to sports. The Giants won one of the best Super Bowls in history because David Tyree, career special teamer, trapped a ball against his helmet.
thanks for admitting you want a fluky system.
now go sit in the corner.
now go sit in the corner.
I wouldn't call it fluky, but if you want to, that's fine. I want engaging products. The team title has no juice. And before you say it, I've advocated it for years, back when Iowa was the team winning team titles.
That can happen at the normal nationals, too. It's amazing what can happen when it comes down to one call.
I would prefer to have both championships.
advocating for a fluky system for years is worse than just advocating it now.
you're digging the hole deep, my friend
literally, by math, the flukiness is mitigated by an exponential amount.
the tournament, by far, is a better indicator.
read the other thread.....NCAA Champ levi haines has to sit b/c of a head clash. other team gets 6. you're ok with that determining the team champ?
stop lying to yourself.
I’m with ya Vak. And while I’m digging, I’m also ok with making singlets and headgear optional. And one more thing…freestyle is a far superior product than folk style.
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Maybe it’s because it’s the start of the season, but I’ve had just as much fun watching this event as I’ve had watching NCAAs in recent years. There has been so much unpredictability in some of the match ups probably because it’s so early in the season. There is also something about a duel meet that just flows a little better as a fan then a tourney. Thanks Paycom/OkaySt for bringing it back and thanks to the other 15 teams who also thought it was a good idea and showed up.
Agreed. Hawks literally almost lost to ISU in a dual last year because Teemer went from likely win to injury loss. It can happen in other sports with injuries too but you can sub during the game there, even if the back ups aren't alway particularly great.
This is a fantastic event, but don't ruin it by trying to push for any "official" championships from it. The individual tournament is far and away the right format for the championships.
Just let this event be what it is - an awesome weekend of wrestling to kick off the new season.
I even kind of like the fact it's so early in the year. Think of all the storylines/blown up preseason rankings that are occurring because of this weekend.
Good stuff!
Just let this event be what it is - an awesome weekend of wrestling to kick off the new season.
I even kind of like the fact it's so early in the year. Think of all the storylines/blown up preseason rankings that are occurring because of this weekend.
Good stuff!
I'm not lying to myself. Don't go there. You don't know my thoughts.
What happened to Haines there could happen at regular nationals.
I remember in 2001 Iowa's top ten 197 didn't make it because of a bad weekend, and outrageous Big Ten coach votes. I'm convinced Iowa would have won nationals in Iowa City with him there. Well, he shouldn't have had a bad weekend. It's a part of championships.
If a guy has a bad day at the Dual Championships, then the better team that day won.
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I enjoy the duals but wrestling has always been an individual sport and the eventual outcomes (team title) should reflect that.
Well, like Meatloaf sang, 1 out of 3 ain't bad.
I'm ok with a Dual Champ and a Tournament Champ, and headgear optional I could live with, I guess.
The rest........
.I understand your reasoning. Better to lose 30-6 in a dual than by 100 at Nationals.
Only in crownign our team champion are we focused on adding huge amounts of data to ensure the "best" team wins. The individual tournament itself is a function of variance in small sample sizes; the "best" wrestler doesn't always win each weight. That doesn't make them any less the champion.
As a sport, we should be creating more appealing products that we can sell to broadcasters and advertisers, and we can only benefit from taking something that is largely backgrounded by the current set up, the team champion of the NCAA wrestling tournament, and making it it's own thing with it's own competition and centering it.
Be like track and field and have a dual season and an individual tournament season. 2 separate national championships.
Folk style badly needs a push-out rule, imo. That would do away with a ton of subjective calls of stalling and go a long way toward keeping the action in the center of the mat.
Agreed. Subjective calls in general are a big issue for wrestling’s popularity. How are new fans supposed to understand the sport when even diehards and refs can’t agree on what’s happening
No, because it doesn't involve every team in the country. At ncaa's you have every possible qualifier in the field. The current format is good: national duals early, conference/ncaa championships at the end, with time in between for recovery
The current NCAA tournament doesn't involve every wrestler in the country.
"At ncaa's you have every possible qualifier in the field"
Can't they've already talked with the NCAA about that and that's not happening the NCAA said 1 trophy. Indoor track is a winter sport and outdoor a spring sport.
So you can artificially limit one but not the other in your mind. Ok.
Lol, if that was the case, big brother would’ve shown up to (as Nasir would say) BTA
I thoroughly enjoy competetive dual meets so I don't dismiss the notion off hand, but I get stuck on some logistical concerns. If a national team championship is determined by a dual tournament wouldn't you need to wait until later in the season when each team's roster has a chance to mature to their potential, and how would the field be chosen/seeded? If the outcome actually comes to mean the year's national team champion, would the dual format motivate weight shifts and bumping like in high school duals and how might that impact post season individual compitition, international qualifiers, etc.?
You're right: Given that it happens one wrestler at a time, then the team title has to reflect the sum of individual results.
However as a spectator, I like duals better. I like to think that wrestling is team sport played one person at a time, and I enjoy seeing how a whole team rises up when one guy really brings it.
Wait a sec husker Willie isn’t it possible that a guy looses in March based on one sequence and that sequence costs his team enough points that takes them out of title contention. I’d say that happens every year.
personally I want both. Team and individual champions. Duals are way more fun to watch than a tournament that’s usually decided by Saturday morning. Now the team championship should not be set in November. Maybe start the season later and end the season with three awesome weekends for wrestling fans; conference tourneys, national duals, and individual championships. That’d be amazing.
How is that any different than when Marinelli defaulted out after breaking a rib and costing Iowa 10ish points.
By participating in conference tournaments two weeks prior every wrestler does have a chance to win the NCAA tournament. This is different than using last year's standings with different rosters to determine which teams qualify in November to participate in a dual championship.
I'm not proposing that the exact format last weekend should determine the team title, just a dual format with qualification determined during the season.
While it would be nice to also have a dual championship, I still think the current format is better. Wrestling is an individual pursuit that has team overlay. It isn't a true team sport. And the way dual scoring works compresses differences.
Let's not be obtuse. If the "National Duals" became the official team title decider, there would absolutely be some sort of qualifier in place to give EVERY team the same chance to qualify as the Individual tournament does. What the tournament is now, is set up KNOWING it is not an official championship, so the main focus is obviously to get the best possible teams there and make it as entertaining as possible...
I watch the duals, and it was fun, but if the NCAA will only recognize one. I would go with the way it is now. Think about the greats. A wrestler cound go undefeated for 4 years and never be on a winning dual team. They would never be a champ but a wrestler that won 1/2 his matches could be a 4-time champ.
Oh, and for all the PSU slappies on here, this has nothing to do with shorting you. Everyone knows PSU would dominate duals just as easily as the Individual Tournament. The argument is actually simply about which is more entertaining and watchable and which is more accurate in determining a team title vs. an individual one...
Track and Field and Cross Country have no duals. Check our schedule. Duals were dumb in the first place, destroy training cycles and served no purpose. It's all multi team events whether you call them; Invitationals, Classics, or Relays.
The only thing anyone cares about are conference and national (including regional quals) meets.
Track and Field has a long list of meets they go to, as many as 3 per weekend where you send different specialist to different meets depending on the competition traditionally there.
Our XCountry team sucks because Woody devotes no rides to distance runners. XC and Track are considered the same sport for rides. He provides all his rides all to "twitch athletes" that can compete in as many as 4 events at a track meet to help win Big Tens, and then place somewhere at Nats