NFL Chiefs eye new home after voters reject renovation tax

[Nitt1300]

Smart voters, imo:

The reigning Super Bowl champion Kansas City Chiefs will consider leaving Arrowhead Stadium, their home since 1972, once their lease expires in 2030, Chiefs chairman Clark Hunt said on Saturday.

Hunt said all options are back on the table after nearly 60% of voters in Jackson County, Missouri, said no earlier this month to a new sales tax of about a half-cent for the next 40 years to finance Arrowhead renovations and a new stadium for Major League Baseball's Kansas City Royals.

more: NFL Chiefs eye new home after voters reject renovation tax (msn.com)

 

[BobPSU92]

The Oakland Chefs

 

[Blair10]

Let’s think about this for a moment. The $24.8 billion dollar Hunt family (owners of the Kansas City Chiefs), wants hard working American citizens to pay for a new stadium.

Some of the rich have no shame.

 

[BobPSU92]

Let’s think about this for a moment. The $24.8 billion dollar Hunt family (owners of the Kansas City Chiefs), wants hard working American citizens to pay for a new stadium.

Some of the rich have no shame.

That’s why they’re rich. Let working stiffs, and people who smell like them, pay for it.

 

[PSU Mike]

Let’s think about this for a moment. The $24.8 billion dollar Hunt family (owners of the Kansas City Chiefs), wants hard working American citizens to pay for a new stadium.

Some of the rich have no shame.

Few of the rich have shame. When I was young I thought that wealthy people felt their wealth gave them special privileges. Then as I aged I came to the realization that certain people have a knack for taking everything in their path that wasn’t nailed down in an outwardly graceful way, which is how their wealth grew in the first place. I never got the “salesman” gene …

 

[PSUFTG2]

Just some tangential FYI:

There have been, IIRC, 17 "new" NFL stadiums built ("new" being since 2000).
Of them, I believe only 2 or 3 are NOT owned by some municipal or state government entity - creations like a County Authority, or some such thing.

This is done - largely - to try to obfuscate and provide some cover for using taxpayer funds.
Of course, the team then gets a comfortable long-term deal to use the stadium (usually after kicking in some portion of the construction costs) - until they find it to be outdated - at which point they demand a new stadium, or threaten to walk away from the facility (which, if they do, now becomes a worthless pile of construction materials that serves no other meaningful purpose).
A hell of a way to run a war.


IIRC - and this is OTTOMH - the Patriots stadium and the one for the Giants/Jets in NY, are a couple of the outliers that are not "governmental entity" owned (maybe also the monstrosity in LA that is shared by the Chargers/Rams.... but I'd have to take a closer look. Someone else may know).

The on-going one in Buffalo? I don't recall OTTOMH.... someone else may know.

 

[BobPSU92]

Just some tangential FYI:

There have been, IIRC, 17 "new" NFL stadiums built ("new" being since 2000).
Of them, I believe only 2 or 3 are NOT owned by some municipal or state government entity - creations like a County Authority, or some such thing.

This is done - largely - to try to obfuscate and provide some cover for using taxpayer funds.
Of course, the team then gets a comfortable long-term deal to use the stadium (usually after kicking in some portion of the construction costs) - until they find it to be outdated - at which point they demand a new stadium, or threaten to walk away from the facility (which, if they do, now becomes a worthless pile of construction materials that serves no other meaningful purpose).
A hell of a way to run a war.


IIRC - and this is OTTOMH - the Patriots stadium and the one for the Giants/Jets in NY, are a couple of the outliers that are not "governmental entity" owned (maybe also the monstrosity in LA that is shared by the Chargers/Rams.... but I'd have to take a closer look. Someone else may know).

The on-going one in Buffalo? I don't recall OTTOMH.... someone else may know.

Obfuscation, you say? Penn State and Centre County should form one of these entities right quick to cover Beaver Stadium renovations. How have they not already done this?

 

[rudedude]

Just some tangential FYI:

There have been, IIRC, 17 "new" NFL stadiums built ("new" being since 2000).
Of them, I believe only 2 or 3 are NOT owned by some municipal or state government entity - creations like a County Authority, or some such thing.

This is done - largely - to try to obfuscate and provide some cover for using taxpayer funds.
Of course, the team then gets a comfortable long-term deal to use the stadium (usually after kicking in some portion of the construction costs) - until they find it to be outdated - at which point they demand a new stadium, or threaten to walk away from the facility (which, if they do, now becomes a worthless pile of construction materials that serves no other meaningful purpose).
A hell of a way to run a war.


IIRC - and this is OTTOMH - the Patriots stadium and the one for the Giants/Jets in NY, are a couple of the outliers that are not "governmental entity" owned (maybe also the monstrosity in LA that is shared by the Chargers/Rams.... but I'd have to take a closer look. Someone else may know).

The on-going one in Buffalo? I don't recall OTTOMH.... someone else may know.

The deal saw New York forking over $600 million in public funding, while Erie County pitched in $250 million. $850 million is the largest public commitment for the construction of an NFL facility, according to the Associated Press. The Bills agreed to pay $690 million toward the project.

Terry P. , PSU Alum…….but he did finance the ice arena for $88 million.

 

[PSUFTG2]

The deal saw New York forking over $600 million in public funding, while Erie County pitched in $250 million. $850 million is the largest public commitment for the construction of an NFL facility, according to the Associated Press. The Bills agreed to pay $690 million toward the project.

Terry P. , PSU Alum…….but he did finance the ice arena for $88 million.

TY.

Do you know how "ownership" breaks down once it is done?

 

[NittPicker]

I read recently there may be some preliminary mutual interest in the Chiefs moving to Kansas City, KS. No doubt the team will be pitting one location against the other.

 

[Midnighter]

Just some tangential FYI:

There have been, IIRC, 17 "new" NFL stadiums built ("new" being since 2000).
Of them, I believe only 2 or 3 are NOT owned by some municipal or state government entity - creations like a County Authority, or some such thing.

This is done - largely - to try to obfuscate and provide some cover for using taxpayer funds.
Of course, the team then gets a comfortable long-term deal to use the stadium (usually after kicking in some portion of the construction costs) - until they find it to be outdated - at which point they demand a new stadium, or threaten to walk away from the facility (which, if they do, now becomes a worthless pile of construction materials that serves no other meaningful purpose).
A hell of a way to run a war.


IIRC - and this is OTTOMH - the Patriots stadium and the one for the Giants/Jets in NY, are a couple of the outliers that are not "governmental entity" owned (maybe also the monstrosity in LA that is shared by the Chargers/Rams.... but I'd have to take a closer look. Someone else may know).

The on-going one in Buffalo? I don't recall OTTOMH.... someone else may know.

The only completely 'privately owned' stadium I could find is Hard Rock in Miami. There are several others though owned by a 'recreation' entity and a few built with zero public subsidy. Most though have a pretty big public funding portion (people forget, Heinz Field cost about $281mm to build and the public paid for $204mm of it). Nearly every analysis of the economic benefits new stadiums bring shows the public money could likely be better spent. The worst part is not only do teams get a stadium at little to no cost (some teams have rent, others don't), a lot of times they get cuts of revenue for other events held at their stadiums too. And it's not just the public funding stadiums; I recall in 2013 or so the Virginia Governor McDonnell (R) gave Dan Snyder, a billionaire, $4mm of public funds to upgrade the Redskins' practice facility. I'm not against public money for these things, but there has to be a real, tangible benefit to taxpayers, and not just that they get to spend outrageous amounts of money to attend a football game or that their team agrees not to leave for 20 years....

 

[Midnighter]

TY.

Do you know how "ownership" breaks down once it is done?

New York state.

 

[psuro]

I read recently there may be some preliminary mutual interest in the Chiefs moving to Kansas City, KS. No doubt the team will be pitting one location against the other.

The would have to change their name. "Kansas City" Chiefs just doesn't sound right.

 

[LionJim]

The only completely 'privately owned' stadium I could find is Hard Rock in Miami. There are several others though owned by a 'recreation' entity and a few built with zero public subsidy. Most though have a pretty big public funding portion (people forget, Heinz Field cost about $281mm to build and the public paid for $204mm of it). Nearly every analysis of the economic benefits new stadiums bring shows the public money could likely be better spent. The worst part is not only do teams get a stadium at little to no cost (some teams have rent, others don't), a lot of times they get cuts of revenue for other events held at their stadiums too. And it's not just the public funding stadiums; I recall in 2013 or so the Virginia Governor McDonnell (R) gave Dan Snyder, a billionaire, $4mm of public funds to upgrade the Redskins' practice facility. I'm not against public money for these things, but there has to be a real, tangible benefit to taxpayers, and not just that they get to spend outrageous amounts of money to attend a football game or that their team agrees not to leave for 20 years....

I don’t know the exact details, but Abe Pollin forked over much $ to build MCI Center.

 

[LBU11]

Let’s think about this for a moment. The $24.8 billion dollar Hunt family (owners of the Kansas City Chiefs), wants hard working American citizens to pay for a new stadium.

Some of the rich have no shame.

Most of the NFL teams do not own the stadiums they play in so why should they pay 100% of the renovations. If I remember correctly Hunt was going to pay at least half the money needed for the renovations for a stadium they rent. I hope the smart voters not wanting a half cent tax for the next 40 years enjoy watching their Chiefs play in Kansas. IMO, they voted NO because the Royals were tied to the tax. If it was just the Chiefs, I think they would have voted yes because that is how much they love their Chiefs.

 

[Blair10]

Most of the NFL teams do not own the stadiums they play in so why should they pay 100% of the renovations. If I remember correctly Hunt was going to pay at least half the money needed for the renovations for a stadium they rent. I hope the smart voters not wanting a half cent tax for the next 40 years enjoy watching their Chiefs play in Kansas. IMO, they voted NO because the Royals were tied to the tax. If it was just the Chiefs, I think they would have voted yes because that is how much they love their Chiefs.

Ah yes. Nothing like good old fashion extortion (threatening to move a team) if the billionaire owners don’t get their way.

The greed of some of the uber rich is never ending.

 

[LBU11]

Ah yes. Nothing like good old fashion extortion (threatening to move a team) if the billionaire owners don’t get their way.

The greed of some of the uber rich is never ending.

Why should any owner pay 100% for needed stadium renovations for a place they don't own? The Jackson County Sports Complex Authority owns Arrowhead. The Chiefs pay $1.1 million annually to lease Arrowhead.

 

[Midnighter]

I don’t know the exact details, but Abe Pollin forked over much $ to build MCI Center.

I was just looking at NFL stadiums - but yeah, think it was privately funded.

Why should any owner pay 100% for needed stadium renovations for a place they don't own? The Jackson County Sports Complex Authority owns Arrowhead. The Chiefs pay $1.1 million annually to lease Arrowhead.

is their lease up? Who decides what ‘needed’ renovations are?

 

[Moogy]

The only completely 'privately owned' stadium I could find is Hard Rock in Miami. There are several others though owned by a 'recreation' entity and a few built with zero public subsidy. Most though have a pretty big public funding portion (people forget, Heinz Field cost about $281mm to build and the public paid for $204mm of it). Nearly every analysis of the economic benefits new stadiums bring shows the public money could likely be better spent. The worst part is not only do teams get a stadium at little to no cost (some teams have rent, others don't), a lot of times they get cuts of revenue for other events held at their stadiums too. And it's not just the public funding stadiums; I recall in 2013 or so the Virginia Governor McDonnell (R) gave Dan Snyder, a billionaire, $4mm of public funds to upgrade the Redskins' practice facility. I'm not against public money for these things, but there has to be a real, tangible benefit to taxpayers, and not just that they get to spend outrageous amounts of money to attend a football game or that their team agrees not to leave for 20 years....

All Boston-area sports stadiums are privately-owned. Kraft funded the entirety of the construction of Gillette (Pats and Revolution) through his Kraft Group. Fenway (Red Sox) and TD Garden (Celts and Bruins) are also privately-owned. The Celts lease TD Garden from the group that owns it and the Bruins.

 

[Blair10]

Why should any owner pay 100% for needed stadium renovations for a place they don't own? The Jackson County Sports Complex Authority owns Arrowhead. The Chiefs pay $1.1 million annually to lease Arrowhead.

If you haven’t seen it, I highly recommend you watch a 1991 movie named Other People’s Money starring Danny DeVito, Gregory Peck and Penelope Ann Miller. OPM is an old and common tactic going back to the robber baron days of Jay Gould.

 

[SleepyLion]

Why should any owner pay 100% for needed stadium renovations for a place they don't own? The Jackson County Sports Complex Authority owns Arrowhead. The Chiefs pay $1.1 million annually to lease Arrowhead.

This is pretty common in commercial leases. The owner leases the space and the lessor is responsible for the upkeep. Usually everything other than the building envelope is the lessor's responsibility.
Think about shopping malls, each one of those stores is "built out" by the lessor.

 

[CbusLion]

I was just looking at NFL stadiums - but yeah, think it was privately funded.



is their lease up? Who decides what ‘needed’ renovations are?

2030 lease is up.

All part of ongoing negotiations. An owner would always entertain moving the team, they're not in the business of paying more than necessary

 

[CbusLion]

This is pretty common in commercial leases. The owner leases the space and the lessor is responsible for the upkeep. Usually everything other than the building envelope is the lessor's responsibility.
Think about shopping malls, each one of those stores is "built out" by the lessor.

With approval from the landlord, no less. Just "the cost of doing business" in commercial real estate.

The Chefs are right to negotiate this, IMO.

 

[TiogaLion]

The Pegula's actually gave $102M for ice hockey. 89$M for the arena and $13M for scholarship endowments for the hockey team.

https://www.psu.edu/news/university-park/story/pegulas-increase-penn-state-hockey-commitment-102-million/

 

[LBU11]

I was just looking at NFL stadiums - but yeah, think it was privately funded.



is their lease up? Who decides what ‘needed’ renovations are?

Both Chiefs and Royals have signed new lease agreements that begin in 2025. (I have also seen lease expires 2030 like Cbuslion posted). The residents of Jackson County have been paying a similar tax for years to pay for repairs and maintenance. The repairs and maintenance this time would involve $800 million renovations to Arrowhead that would begin in 2026. IMO the voters would have voted yes, if it was just the Chiefs. The sales tax vote included building the Royals a new stadium. The Royals new lease payment was $2.75 mill annually and the Royals were going to pay for the demolition of Kauffman Stadium.

 

[BiochemPSU]

The only completely 'privately owned' stadium I could find is Hard Rock in Miami. There are several others though owned by a 'recreation' entity and a few built with zero public subsidy. Most though have a pretty big public funding portion (people forget, Heinz Field cost about $281mm to build and the public paid for $204mm of it). Nearly every analysis of the economic benefits new stadiums bring shows the public money could likely be better spent. The worst part is not only do teams get a stadium at little to no cost (some teams have rent, others don't), a lot of times they get cuts of revenue for other events held at their stadiums too. And it's not just the public funding stadiums; I recall in 2013 or so the Virginia Governor McDonnell (R) gave Dan Snyder, a billionaire, $4mm of public funds to upgrade the Redskins' practice facility. I'm not against public money for these things, but there has to be a real, tangible benefit to taxpayers, and not just that they get to spend outrageous amounts of money to attend a football game or that their team agrees not to leave for 20 years....

The marlins forever soured the voters of south Florida on anything stadium related with the garbage they pulled years ago.

 

[Connorpozlee]

I don’t know the exact details, but Abe Pollin forked over much $ to build MCI Center.

I’m pretty sure the Islanders owners paid for UBS arena.

 

[GrimReaper]

I’m pretty sure the Islanders owners paid for UBS arena.

Not entirely. The arena is owned by a joint venture between the Islanders and two real estate development companies, both of which focus on sports properties.

 

[Connorpozlee]

Not entirely. The arena is owned by a joint venture between the Islanders and two real estate development companies, both of which focus on sports properties.

All private though, right?

 

[GrimReaper]

All private though, right?

Correct.

 

[BW Lion]

So Mahomes will soon have a new home?

1) Kansas City, KS?
2) San Antonio, TX?
3) Mexico City, MX?

 

[1995PSUGrad]

I don't really see it as the owners being greedy. It's a smart business decision to get someone else to fund your stadium for you. Let's not forget that these teams bring in lots of tax revenue for the city.

 

[SleepyLion]

With approval from the landlord, no less. Just "the cost of doing business" in commercial real estate.

The Chefs are right to negotiate this, IMO.

Nothing wrong with asking just like nothing wrong with saying "no".

I used to think there should be tax breaks for these things, then I started paying taxes.

There is no reason it is not just the cost of doing business for a sports franchise except that the governments often give in.

 

[manatree]

This is pretty common in commercial leases. The owner leases the space and the lessor is responsible for the upkeep. Usually everything other than the building envelope is the lessor's responsibility.
Think about shopping malls, each one of those stores is "built out" by the lessor.

Exactly. The owners of the Raisin Cane’s in State College submitted a building permit for $1.6 million in renovations on the space that they are leasing. That’s a lot of chicken fingers.

 

[Woodpecker]

It can get contentious even if the city owns the stadium AND the team

 

[psuro]

Just out of curiousity, haven't most sports venues for professional teams been paid for through public dollars? Including renovations?

 

[Whart]

The Mayor of Dallas very publicly stated that he would love to see the Chiefs move if things can’t be worked out. With the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex topping 8.1 million in population ( and growing) the area could easily handle a second NFL Team. Most likely won’t happen but there is a serious group of Texas based investors more than interested in a development deal, etc.

 

[psuro]

The Mayor of Dallas very publicly stated that he would love to see the Chiefs move if things can’t be worked out. With the Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex topping 8.1 million in population ( and growing) the area could easily handle a second NFL Team. Most likely won’t happen but there is a serious group of Texas based investors more than interested in a development deal, etc.

Or they could move to San Antonio - which at least has a stadium already in place.

 

[Midnighter]

Just out of curiousity, haven't most sports venues for professional teams been paid for through public dollars? Including renovations?

Yes. And some deals are beyond awful (for taxpayers). The trend had been less public investment in stadiums until the Pegula's broke the bank in Buffalo.

I’ve studied stadium financing for over two decades – and the new Bills stadium is one of the worst deals for taxpayers I’ve ever seen

Study after study has shown that stadiums are terrible public investments. Taxpayers rarely want to pay for them. So why do governments keep subsidizing them?

theconversation.com

 

[Psu00]

Or they could move to San Antonio - which at least has a stadium already in place.

My guess is they’d consider that stadium out of date and in need of renovations too.