Northwestern-Michigan second half thread
- Thread starter Straus2018
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Northwestern has only one basket apiece from Demps and McIntosh, but leads 41-36 thanks to a couple of 3s from Falzon and an Olah dunk
This is one of those games that we need to learn how to win if we're going to take the next step. We can't fade down the stretch here like we always seem to do. We have to find a way to keep battling and make the key plays on the road in a tight game.
Michigan is borderline top 50. Brutal way to lose (if it happens), but not a bad loss as far as metrics are concerned.
This season feels like 1994 did for football. Oh so close but not quite there yet.
I'm sorry, but Olah and Demps hurt us so much in close games. They just make such bad decisions. Olah takes two stupid threes and misses them both badly. Demps takes two really terrible threes and misses them badly. This is what defines bad teams - bad plays down the stretch.
Reminds me of a less painful 2008-09 hoops, with the difference being the 'Cats got 2 big ones, but blew a ton of others late. This squad blew it against mid upper tier and Maryland.
I can see the 1994 reference though too.
I love Bryant McIntosh but he cannot create his own shot like Rakhman and Walton can. That was a key to the game and Michigan had their way with those two out there. And Lavert didn't even play and it looked like Irvin was playing hurt. We just don't match up talent wise with the better teams in the Big Ten, and frankly, I'm beginning to wonder if we ever will. It's an uphill battle to match recruits with these teams.
Even with the bump in recruiting Collins and staff have brought, they are still miles behind the top half of the Big 10. Which is why he isn't talking about "Championships", he is talking about someday squeaking into the NCAA with a 6th or 7th place finish. NU is what it is, and will never be a top basketball school.
So Fitz shouldn't talk about "championships" when he's had 2 10-win seasons in the last four years? Is that what you are trying to say? NU has proven it can be in the upper division in football over the past 20 years. Might take another Barnett miracle to get us there in hoops and those come around "once in a lifetime."
No. I am trying to say that Collins is setting a realistic goal in basketball. There are no divisions in hoops, and with an 18 game conference schedule the cream rises to the top in hoops. Fitz has shown that it is possible for NU to compete for Championships in football. The jury is very much out in hoops.
I've heard many wise people say "never say never." Football has 85 scholarships and you need a larger core of really good players to do well. In basketball, we've seen schools catch lightning in a bottle with some very good players and go deep in the NCAA tournament. We may never be at a level of talent of say a Duke (but then, why not?) but can still be very competitive if Collins turns out to be the coach that most of think he is.
I'm ready for Demps to go. He hurt his team more than he helped this year. Too streaky and no Defense. Ready for a CC's guy to take that spot.
Never say never NJCat. We are still on track relative to the coach K plan. Per the Coach K plan, next year is the year.
Fitz hasn't shown that at all. Barnett showed it.
Fitz hasn't won or really even really come very close to winning a championship of the West not to mention the B1G.
It's not harder in hoops. If he can land one or two superstars and continue to recruit the same level of talent that he is already doing to surround them, we can make the Final 4. Maybe this is the year we land an Eastern or someone. Maybe Isiah Brown is the superstar we are waiting for.
I feel very pessimistic about NU hoops, so folks should feel free to put me on Ignore if they wish. But we've been waiting for our prince to come, as it were, forever at NU. The closest we have gotten was John Shurna and while he was good in certain ways, he didn't even get drafted. Basketball is a very different game than football. Individual stars can takeover the game way more than in football. And the star players are much more developed by the time they set foot on campus. Plus, since hoops is a much more individualistic game, my theory is that basketball players (especially the stars) have much bigger egos. Guys with big egos don't go to the worst Power 5 program in the history of the game.
I just don't see a formula for us. For every Vic Law we land, Michigan and Ohio State and Iowa and Maryland land 2-3 that are better. This NU team may beat the NU team of 10 years ago, but they still can't beat Michigan and Ohio State. Its very very frustrating.
Fair enough. But Year 4, Coach K had Dawkins, Bilas, Alarie and Amaker, with Henderson off the bench. Collins will have McIntosh, Falzon, Pardon and Law as his core four, with Lindsey off the bench. A slight advantage to Coach K I'd say.......
Sadly, this is dead on. Northwestern basketball is worse than rooting for the Cubs in terms of historic success relative to one's peers. We're the worst pro/power 5 collegiate team in any of the four major US sports in history.
This is the great myth. It is harder in hoops for a school like NU. In football you can find plenty of guys who are much different players at 21 than they were at 16 or 17 when they were being recruited. Thus, 3* players can lead you to 10 wins or even a B1G title. In basketball, the best players at 21 are usually the same guys who were the best players at 14,15 and 16. Occasionally NU can find a less-recruited guy like Shurna who can carry us to the NIT a few times, but kinds of players who win Power 5 titles and take Power 5 teams to the final four tend to be identified by the time they are freshmen in high school. Those guys are much harder to get than the Darnell Autrys, Brett Basanezs and Dean Lowrys of the world.
Hogwash. Tell that to Duke and Vanderbilt. These are high academic programs that have been super successful in hoops, but have never played in the BCS in football. If a Wichita State or a VCU can make it to the Final 4, and Harvard can be ranked, don't tell me it is so hard to recruit and piece together a similar caliber team at NU, where we play in a premier conference, are in a great city.
We have brought the caliber of player you describe to NU. Evan Eschmeyer. Rex Walters. Geno Carlisle. We failed at the same thing our Dark Ages football teams that also brought in the likes of Chris Hinton and Curtis Duncan did - we failed to get enough of them or provide them with a sufficient supporting cast. It's a lot easier to get 8-9 B1G quality players for a hoops team than 22 for football. We just haven't done it, but I'm confident Collins will. Collins needs just one, maybe two, guys to go with what he already has, age them a little bit, and we are there. I'm confident, Law and McIntosh will see the NCAAs before they are done. Once that happens, I think we will see our recruiting improve even beyond what we have today.
Not to mention, Wisconsin has won B1G titles and gone to back to back NCAA Final Fours without anyone like you are saying. They were all players the caliber (in HS and in recruiting) similar to what Collins is ALREADY bringing into NU.
Not exactly correct.
Alarie, Bilas, Henderson, and Dawkins were all Sophomores. Amaker was a freshman.
So, basically, you're talking about Pardon, Falzon, and Ash matching up with the sophomores next year (Duke wins there)
Their freshmen were Amaker and Nessly (jury is out, but strong possibility we win out there with Rapo, Benson, and Brown(!))
Richard Ford and Doug McNeely (seniors) actually probably lose to Taphorn and Lumpkin (I really don't know, but these guys got even less time than Tap or Lumpkin did this year)
Law, McIntosh, Skelly beat out Todd Meagher, Jay Bryan, and Todd Anderson (juniors) easily.
So, on the whole, I am not sure that Duke team was more talented or deep than we will be next year. Certainly when Tap and Lumpkin graduate, and we bring in whoever we bring in, in the 2017 class, they will be a lot deeper and I think better than the 1983-1984 Duke team.
That Duke team made it to round of 32 (not sure there was 64 back then) and finished 24-10. Not sure that is not out of reach for us next year. I think 2017 we surpass them for sure.
Note that the previous year's team, the 1982-1983 team (equivalent to NU this year) was 11-17, finished 7th out of 8th in the ACC and was 3-11 in conference play. Keep in mind also that Law was regarded as our best player amongst Collins recruits and he was out this year.
So, I stand by my premise. We are still on track vis a vis the Coach K plan. Arguably ahead of schedule if you look at what this team is doing vs. 1982-1983 Duke. Keep the faith. Collins is priming the pump and the water will flow soon. Count on it.
I like your enthusiasm, but it might be a little wishful thinking regarding Brown. Isiah can clearly put the ball in the hoop, but there's a serious adjustment most freshman go through when playing BIG level basketball. While a slight opening may exist at the 2 (if Collins doesn't go the grad transfer route and Lindsay/Ash don't improve), I think it's more likely we'll hear from Brown down the road. IR and BB seem to be safer bets to get time on the floor in 2016-17.
Good rebuttal.
I will count on it the same way as I counted on your assertion that "this is the year" for the NCAA before this season started. I seem to recall you predicting NU would win 2 games in the Tournament.....but you will always have a built-in excuse of injuries, cause someone always gets hurt at NU and no doubt there will be a significant injury next season as well.......count on it!
I may not be as optimistic as ECat about this program, but I certainly wouldn't ever criticize him for his optimism. I'm glad someone on here is keeping their head up. I know I am struggling to do so.