Potential changes to wrestling rules

[newguy123]

This is just a thought exercise, feel free to hop in or not. I won't have hurt feelings if this thread goes nowhere.

Love wrestling obv, but collegiate folkstyle wrestling could take a few pointers from freestyle to make matches more interesting and in turn, bring in more new viewers and fans.

1 - add the step-out point. If you touch the outside of the ring, your opponent gets a point. This adds more ways to score and eliminates the ambiguity of edge-of-mat stall calls. I don't see freestyle matches becoming shove-each-other battles, so I wouldn't anticipate that happening here either.

2 - reduce the length of the periods. The 2nd and 3rd period choice (down/top/neutral) is a classic folkstyle characteristic, and I do miss it when I watch freestyle so I don't think that should be eliminated for a 2-period system like freestyle. But those periods are just so long! Non die-hard viewers get bored. All but the most elite wrestlers get gassed. Shorter periods would push the action, reduce likelihood of injury, and make it more fun to watch. I've watched thousands of matches and I've felt that matches are too long since the early days of my wrestling viewing in the 1990s.

Anyone else have changes they'd make to folkstyle?

 

[tom_v31]

- I like the push out rule.
- I’m not out on the shorter periods but I do like that conditioning plays a factor in the outcome. It is more unique to US wrestling and does give us a slight edge over other countries, I feel. Also, I like that a grittier wrestler can beat a more talented wrestler, sometimes, when he/she prepares physically more. It speaks to the underdog side of me

 

[OSUMatFan]

I agree with Alex on both counts. When I take someone to a match we start talking during a long ride with no points. Also there would probably be fewer injuries. Most wrestling purist will agree with Tom.

 

[FourCornersCowboy]

Tough take…get rid of folk and have college embrace freestyle.

 

[CowboyUp61]

The push out rule, even in freestyle, is not cut and dried and as easy to call as people think.

I would be game for starting each period on your feet-if you want to ride, you have to earn it. If no one scores a takedown, at least one wrestler gets a stalling warning.

Conditioning should play a part. But I would agree with 2-2-2. Back in my day, matches were 2-3-3. Everyone gets tired. Champions wrestle through it.

 

[Inky29]

Reversal should be worth 3 points.
Riding point should be time & exposure otherwise no point awarded.

 

[newguy123]

Tough take…get rid of folk and have college embrace freestyle.

There's a bit of wisdom in this. Freestyle is the primary post-college style. My main issue with freestyle is that the riding gets cut off after like 8 seconds, and you really get few pinning combinations, so that's a bummer. It'd be cool to prepare kids for post-college wrestling while also retaining some of the characteristics of folkstyle. That'd be a tall order though.

 

[newguy123]

I would be game for starting each period on your feet-if you want to ride, you have to earn it. If no one scores a takedown, at least one wrestler gets a stalling warning.

What about both wrestlers getting a stall warning? That'd sure make people want to go score.

 

[CowboyUp61]

What about both wrestlers getting a stall warning? That'd sure make people want to go score.

that is why I said "at least". If neither are aggressive, hit them both.

 

[tom_v31]

Reversal should be worth 3 points.
Riding point should be time & exposure otherwise no point awarded.

Those are good ones

 

[Old Number Nine]

A push out rule plays into the "Iowa" style; the idea that just pushing is good offense. It's not and it shouldn't be rewarded. On the other hand, I have always thought that if a wrestler leaves the mat someone should be penalized as follows: if you are riding or just pushing and your oponent is trying to stay on the mat (a push out), you should be warned; if your oponent is working for position (not just pushing) or shooting, you should be warned; if your oponent is in solid on a takedown (leg, hip, arm...), it's a point.

 

[Inky29]

Also would like to add a bonus point to the first take down of the match, also first take down of the match earns the right to choose starting position for 2nd period. If no take down in period one, 2nd starts neutral. No bonus point if first take down is in the 2nd, however first take down still gets to choice starting position for period 3.

I just want to try to find ways to push the action without putting that power in the refs subjective opinion.

 

[tom_v31]

A push out rule plays into the "Iowa" style; the idea that just pushing is good offense. It's not and it shouldn't be rewarded. On the other hand, I have always thought that if a wrestler leaves the mat someone should be penalized as follows: if you are riding or just pushing and your oponent is trying to stay on the mat (a push out), you should be warned; if your oponent is working for position (not just pushing) or shooting, you should be warned; if your oponent is in solid on a takedown (leg, hip, arm...), it's a point.

Iowa does rely on dominating the center. So does many good wrestlers, ie Daton fix and ringer.

 

[newguy123]

I used to be anti "Iowa style" as well, but the more I watch freestyle the more sense a push-out point makes to me. It's less dominating than a hard ride, and anyone that just pushes opens themselves up for getting taken down or circled around and thrown out of bounds. In fact, it makes the match more interesting - adds ways to score and makes interactions on the edge more likely to end with points and highflying scrambles to avoid the edge. I'd remove the judgment call aspect by simply making it cut and dry: "you step out, your opponent gets a point". Refs ruin a lot of matches with stall calls - every ref is different, some are more impacted by the crowd than others, its just a nightmare of inconsistency... which is why I wouldn't include the shot clock in my proposed changes.

 

[chasepollard]

Don't like the push out unless it comes after two scoring attempts. What Wrestling needs is more scoring action, not defensive push fests.

Take away riding time and award the feet with no point after 45 seconds (or some other ambiguous number) if no scoring attempts by the top man are awarded.

Also, team points...

1 point for a decision
2 points for a decision with back points

3 points for a major
4 points for a major with back points

6 points for a tech fall
7 points for an 8 TD tech

6 points for a pin
7 points for a pin in the second
8 points for a pin in the first.

 

[newguy123]

This is an interesting take. Bold to remove riding time. However, riding time snoozefests where neither wrestler can do anything are pretty dull. I like this idea of giving them 1 minute to escape and get a point, but if they don't then put them both on their feet without an escape point. Still rewards escaping and holding the opponent down, but could potentially reduce the snoozefests.

Still am not understanding the idea that push-outs will somehow dominate matches. They don't seem to in freestyle, why would they in folkstyle? Seems to me that the push-out is something wrestlers go for when it's there rather than an overarching strategy, but admittedly I've only seen about 60 freestyle matches which is a pretty small sample.

 

[chasepollard]

This is an interesting take. Bold to remove riding time. However, riding time snoozefests where neither wrestler can do anything are pretty dull. I like this idea of giving them 1 minute to escape and get a point, but if they don't then put them both on their feet without an escape point. Still rewards escaping and holding the opponent down, but could potentially reduce the snoozefests.

Still am not understanding the idea that push-outs will somehow dominate matches. They don't seem to in freestyle, why would they in folkstyle? Seems to me that the push-out is something wrestlers go for when it's there rather than an overarching strategy, but admittedly I've only seen about 60 freestyle matches which is a pretty small sample.

You don't like my team point idea?

I enjoy a tough rider, but too often, it is a guy on bottom, trying to not get turned instead of escape. A casual Wrestling fan gets put to sleep here.

My deal on the push-out is that many guys, in Freestyle matches appear to work for a defensive position while trying to get the push-out. It will morph into alot of counter Wrestling instead of more entertaining scoring...IMO.

I think the Team Point idea would create more entertainment value.

 

[OSUMatFan]

Chase I agree. We have to make this more interesting to the casual fan.

 

[oberebo]

I see absolutely no Value in a pushout rule. I do not like it in either style. The ref has the option to warn and then give points if a man is stalling. It is way too complicated if he has to determine if it is a pushout by the aggressive wrestler or the one who steps out of bounds and it becomes subjective. I do agree with standing the wrestlers up after say, 30 seconds if no pinning hold is tried. I also agree that after a 0-0 first period both wrestlers should be warned or awarded a point and if it continues the next call would be 2 points against the staller. I also think a case could be made for a 3 point takedown the second time either wrestler scores again.

Chase I agree. We have to make this more interesting to the casual fan.

 

[oberebo]

I also like Inky's point about not starting the first or second period up down but having to earn riding time by scoring a takedown.

 

[Cowguy]

I don’t mind the push out rule, but it needs to be off a legitimate scoring attempt. I don’t want to see someone just be able to lock up a front headlock and just drive someone backwards.

If folkstyle becomes freestyle, I’ll hate it. I like mat wrestling. I like pinning combos. I could go for more criteria to continue the ride. We all know what stall rides look like. If you’re not actively working to turn someone then you get stood up after 20 seconds.

I wish OT was just on the feet until a winner was decided.

I like the 3 point reversal call. I also like a scoring change that would allow more separation in a take down release situation. How bout first take down is two and every subsequent takedown is 3, until the other wrestler gets a takedown?

Just going to repeat. Don’t make college wrestling into freestyle. Please.

 

[oberebo]

I don’t mind the push out rule, but it needs to be off a legitimate scoring attempt. I don’t want to see someone just be able to lock up a front headlock and just drive someone backwards.

If folkstyle becomes freestyle, I’ll hate it. I like mat wrestling. I like pinning combos. I could go for more criteria to continue the ride. We all know what stall rides look like. If you’re not actively working to turn someone then you get stood up after 20 seconds.

I wish OT was just on the feet until a winner was decided.

I like the 3 point reversal call. I also like a scoring change that would allow more separation in a take down release situation. How bout first take down is two and every subsequent takedown is 3, until the other wrestler gets a takedown?

Just going to repeat. Don’t make college wrestling into freestyle. Please.

Cowguy, you took the words out of my mouth. We need to tweak folkstyle but replacing it with freestyle rules would not be the answer. I like the idea of 2nd takedowns being worth 3 points.

 

[newguy123]

You don't like my team point idea?

I enjoy a tough rider, but too often, it is a guy on bottom, trying to not get turned instead of escape. A casual Wrestling fan gets put to sleep here.

My deal on the push-out is that many guys, in Freestyle matches appear to work for a defensive position while trying to get the push-out. It will morph into alot of counter Wrestling instead of more entertaining scoring...IMO.

I think the Team Point idea would create more entertainment value.

I do like the idea of changing how team points are scored. Honestly, explaining the scoring is one of the biggest sticking points when I'm trying to get a newbie to watch a dual with me. Basketball has 1, 2, and 3 points... football has 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 points. Wrestling has 1, 2, 3, 4 points for matches and 3, 4, 5, 6 points for duals. It's a nightmare to comprehend, and I always default back to "you'll get it after a few duals". Well, there might not be another dual for my newbie friend if they're too distracted by the complicated scoring. At the end of the day it's a combat sport and should not be that tricky to track the score.

Here's a wacky idea. What if the match point margin is what your team gets? So if you win by 3, your team gets 3 points. Tech falls would be 15 points obviously, and a pin would maybe be 20 points. This could push competitors to score and would also make it simpler for newbies to understand.

 

[newguy123]

Chase I agree. We have to make this more interesting to the casual fan.

This is my whole impetus for this conversation. I've been watching wrestling since 1990 and know exactly two other wrestling fans in person - my parents. That's pretty sad. Even my buddy that I used to wrestle with in Junior High doesn't watch anymore. It's like a club with a high barrier for entry (you need knowledge, patience, and ideally a mentor or good commentators to walk you through what's going on until you get it for yourself), and the sport shoots itself in the foot by barely evolving from year to year and maintaining a DIY ethic for broadcasts, publicity, marketing, etc. We only need to look at the success of other collegiate and combat sports to take pointers on what brings in new fans and keeps old fans. Yes obviously money plays a big role in making MMA and football accessible to the masses, but there's more to it - scheduling (NCAA tournament is during March Madness), self-promotion (wrestlers are supposed to be humble), and some of the other issues we've discussed here. Probably some other things too.

 

[chasepollard]

I do like the idea of changing how team points are scored. Honestly, explaining the scoring is one of the biggest sticking points when I'm trying to get a newbie to watch a dual with me. Basketball has 1, 2, and 3 points... football has 1, 2, 3, 6, and 7 points. Wrestling has 1, 2, 3, 4 points for matches and 3, 4, 5, 6 points for duals. It's a nightmare to comprehend, and I always default back to "you'll get it after a few duals". Well, there might not be another dual for my newbie friend if they're too distracted by the complicated scoring. At the end of the day it's a combat sport and should not be that tricky to track the score.

Here's a wacky idea. What if the match point margin is what your team gets? So if you win by 3, your team gets 3 points. Tech falls would be 15 points obviously, and a pin would maybe be 20 points. This could push competitors to score and would also make it simpler for newbies to understand.

If the spectator is consumed with scoring the match on their program themselves, they won’t stick as a fan anyway.

If a spectator is entertained, they’ll stick. Which is the premise of this discussion.

So, we have to promote scoring and pins by progressive rule changes.

I really like some of your points and honestly, besides a drive to score more points, a grassroots effort in youth Wrestling is the main answer!

In my home town, I wanted to do a big dual that combined a little league dual and the HS dual in a venue directly in the middle of the two schools. When local kids are competing and it’s a well promoted/documented rivalry, adults will come to support. It will also drive the younger kids to participate.

Ive also had discussions with my AD about pushing football players to Wrestle, which would also promote the sport.

 

[newguy123]

If the spectator is consumed with scoring the match on their program themselves, they won’t stick as a fan anyway.

If a spectator is entertained, they’ll stick. Which is the premise of this discussion.

So, we have to promote scoring and pins by progressive rule changes.

I really like some of your points and honestly, besides a drive to score more points, a grassroots effort in youth Wrestling is the main answer!

In my home town, I wanted to do a big dual that combined a little league dual and the HS dual in a venue directly in the middle of the two schools. When local kids are competing and it’s a well promoted/documented rivalry, adults will come to support. It will also drive the younger kids to participate.

Ive also had discussions with my AD about pushing football players to Wrestle, which would also promote the sport.

Great points on promoting rivalries and cross-sport participation (wrestling helps football skills immensely). And these days, social media is for better or for worse a huge part of spreading the gospel.

 

[chasepollard]

Great points on promoting rivalries and cross-sport participation (wrestling helps football skills immensely). And these days, social media is for better or for worse a huge part of spreading the gospel.

Really, promoting youth Wrestling by using HS Wrestling is a solid route. HS Football players in my area are very popular. If they Wrestle, more kids are likely to participate as youths.

If Football coaches would embrace a kid Wrestling, you'd see a HUGE uptick in youth participation. Wrestling in general doesn't promote this....Malcolm Rodriguez and Brock Martin are two very good examples. Both of them are very popular and exposed Footballers for OSU, and both of them are State Champs; but we have crickets for the most part in promoting their Wrestling background.