Round 1 KopiKat vs. CSRupp

[DraftCat]

Welcome to the 1st All-Time MLB Draft in Paddock's.

Voters the goal was to draft a MLB roster of legends that will compete in a hypothetical
7 game World Series. Please vote on who you believe would win out of the two teams.

@KopiKat

Starters vs. RHP.............................Starters vs. LHP

1. CF - Steve Finley LH................ 1. LF - Alfonso Soriano RH
2. 3B - Chipper Jones (switch)......2. 3B - Chipper Jones (switch)
3. 1B - Albert Pujols RH................3. RF - Gary Sheffield RH
4. RF - Dave Parker LH.................4. 1B - A. Pujols RH
5. LF - Jim Rice RH.......................5. LF - Jim Rice RH
6. 2B - Jose Altuve RH..................6. 2B - Jose Altuve RH
7. C - Brian McCann LH................7. SS - Andrelton Simmons RH
8. SS - Andrelton Simmons RH....8. C - Brian McCann (bats left)

Bench:
Daryl Strawberry (bats left)...........Darryl Strawberry (bats left)
Alfonso Soriano (bats right)..........Steve Finley (bats left)
Gary Sheffield (bats right).............Dave Parker (bats left)

Pitching Rotation
Bob Gibson (gm. 1, 4, 7)
Warren Spahn (gm. 2, 5)
Bob Feller (gm. 3)
Jack Morris (available)
Tom Henke (closer)



@csrupp.....................................Pitching Rotation:

1. Joe Morgan-2b..........................SP-Tom Seaver
2. Shoeless Joe Jackson-LF.........SP-Kid Nichols
3. Mickey Mantle-CF.....................SP-Bert Blyleven
4. Mel Ott-RF................................SP-DavidCone
5. Jimmie Foxx-1b........................CP- Lee Smith
6. Jim Thome-3b
7. Carlton Fisk-C
8. Francisco Lindor-SS

Bench:
Cody Bellinger-OF
Ronald Acuna JR. -OF
Alex Bregman-IF

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

I need some info on these, it's very close to me.

 

[KopiKat]

I need some info on these, it's very close to me.

What everyone needs to go ahead an accept from the jump (or they can refuse to accept it) is being allowed only 4 pitchers + a closer mandates not only long outings by starters but clearly says you are NOT going to win a 7 game series without multiple starters who can legitimately haul the team through complete games. Bob Gibson is not only far and away the greatest world series pitcher in this respect, but he is also the greatest modern era world series pitcher period not to mention his full season stats for complete games is an immortal thing not to be believed.

Spahn and Feller. Also complete game juggernauts. This is not a staff to be voted out in the early rounds. And the defense for these pitchers is there, left side of the infield with Simmons and Chipper. Your Bluegrass special, Finley, in center field. And the cobra, Parker, that arm, in right.

 

[BigBlueEric]

BTTT

 

[csrupp]

Career WAR comparison between they 2 teams:

Morgan: 100.5 Finley: 44.2
Jackson: 62.1 Jones: 85.3
Mantle: 110.2 Pujols: 100.8
Ott: 110.7 Parker: 40.1
Foxx: 93.9 Rice: 47.7
Thome: 72.9 Altuve: 36.7
Fisk: 68.4 McCann: 31.9
Lindor: 27.9 Simmons: 36.3

Bellinger: 17.3 Strawberry: 42.2
Acuna: 9.9 Soriano: 28.6
Bregman: 22.4 Sheffield: 60.5

Tom Seaver: 109.9 Gibson: 89.2
Kid Nichols: 116.3 Spahn: 100.1
Blyleven: 94.5 Feller: 63.4
Cone: 62.3 Morris: 43.5

Smith: 28.9 Henke: 22.9

Starting line up combined WAR:
646.6 - 423

Bench WAR:
49.6 - 131.4

Starting Pitchers:
383 - 296.2

Closers:
28.9 - 22.9

Combined team WAR:
1108.1 - 873.5
Starting lineup:
Mine is better and it's not really even close. Not much need to argue that one.

Bench:
His bench has a higher WAR but by the end of their career Bellinger, Acuna, and Bregman will almost certainly have a higher combined WAR.

162 game average:
Bellinger- 40 HR 104 RBI 105R 14 SB
Acuna- 41 HR 100 RBI 124 R 32 SB
Bregman- 31 HR 100 RBI 108 R 11 SB

Starting Pitchers:
At first glance I thought he might have the advantage here but after review I now believe that I might quietly have one of the best rotations in this draft. Seaver is better than Gibson and that's not taking anything away from Gibson. Seaver was just that good. Nichols has the 4th highest WAR of any pitcher in the history of baseball. Think about that for a second, 4th highest behind only Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens. Blyleven is so sneaky good that he has the 12th highest pitching WAR of all-time. That gives my team the 4th, 7th, 12th best pitchers in the history of baseball (when ranked by WAR). And lets not forget David Cone, he's not exactly a throw in. He's ranked 55th in career WAR among pitchers and won a Cy Young Award.

To summarize, my team has the best 2 starting pitchers, 3 out of the 4 best and my 4th is equal to his 3rd. That means I'll have the starting pitcher advantage in all 7 games.

Closers:

Lee Smith had 478 career saves and was considered the best closer of all-time when he retired. He is still consider a top 5 closer.

Conclusion:

My team has the better lineup, starting staff, and closer. The argument could be made that my bench is better. My team has a 234.6 higher combined WAR and that is with me having 3 of the modern young stars in baseball on my bench. Just imagine how much WAR the will add by the end of their careers. I like my team.

 

[csrupp]

I'd like to reiterate:

My team has a substantial advantage in the starting lineup.

As I've clearly laid out in my longer post above, my starting rotation is better as well. I have the best starter in all 7 games.

My bench is certainly more talented albeit with less experience.

My closer is the 4th or 5th best in the history of baseball.

A vote for my team is the correct choice.

 

[BigBlueFanGA]

Career WAR comparison between they 2 teams:

Morgan: 100.5 Finley: 44.2
Jackson: 62.1 Jones: 85.3
Mantle: 110.2 Pujols: 100.8
Ott: 110.7 Parker: 40.1
Foxx: 93.9 Rice: 47.7
Thome: 72.9 Altuve: 36.7
Fisk: 68.4 McCann: 31.9
Lindor: 27.9 Simmons: 36.3

Bellinger: 17.3 Strawberry: 42.2
Acuna: 9.9 Soriano: 28.6
Bregman: 22.4 Sheffield: 60.5

Tom Seaver: 109.9 Gibson: 89.2
Kid Nichols: 116.3 Spahn: 100.1
Blyleven: 94.5 Feller: 63.4
Cone: 62.3 Morris: 43.5

Smith: 28.9 Henke: 22.9

Starting line up combined WAR:
646.6 - 423

Bench WAR:
49.6 - 131.4

Starting Pitchers:
383 - 296.2

Closers:
28.9 - 22.9

Combined team WAR:
1108.1 - 873.5
Starting lineup:
Mine is better and it's not really even close. Not much need to argue that one.

Bench:
His bench has a higher WAR but by the end of their career Bellinger, Acuna, and Bregman will almost certainly have a higher combined WAR.

162 game average:
Bellinger- 40 HR 104 RBI 105R 14 SB
Acuna- 41 HR 100 RBI 124 R 32 SB
Bregman- 31 HR 100 RBI 108 R 11 SB

Starting Pitchers:
At first glance I thought he might have the advantage here but after review I now believe that I might quietly have one of the best rotations in this draft. Seaver is better than Gibson and that's not taking anything away from Gibson. Seaver was just that good. Nichols has the 4th highest WAR of any pitcher in the history of baseball. Think about that for a second, 4th highest behind only Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens. Blyleven is so sneaky good that he has the 12th highest pitching WAR of all-time. That gives my team the 4th, 7th, 12th best pitchers in the history of baseball (when ranked by WAR). And lets not forget David Cone, he's not exactly a throw in. He's ranked 55th in career WAR among pitchers and won a Cy Young Award.

To summarize, my team has the best 2 starting pitchers, 3 out of the 4 best and my 4th is equal to his 3rd. That means I'll have the starting pitcher advantage in all 7 games.

Closers:

Lee Smith had 478 career saves and was considered the best closer of all-time when he retired. He is still consider a top 5 closer.

Conclusion:

My team has the better lineup, starting staff, and closer. The argument could be made that my bench is better. My team has a 234.6 higher combined WAR and that is with me having 3 of the modern young stars in baseball on my bench. Just imagine how much WAR the will add by the end of their careers. I like my team.

We all use WAR which has finally forced me to read up on it a bit. It's a pretty flawed stat is what I'm finding. It has no context and makes some assumptions based on subjective criteria. I know one thing, this draft has taught me a lot.

 

[Drcats2025]

Career WAR comparison between they 2 teams:

Morgan: 100.5 Finley: 44.2
Jackson: 62.1 Jones: 85.3
Mantle: 110.2 Pujols: 100.8
Ott: 110.7 Parker: 40.1
Foxx: 93.9 Rice: 47.7
Thome: 72.9 Altuve: 36.7
Fisk: 68.4 McCann: 31.9
Lindor: 27.9 Simmons: 36.3

Bellinger: 17.3 Strawberry: 42.2
Acuna: 9.9 Soriano: 28.6
Bregman: 22.4 Sheffield: 60.5

Tom Seaver: 109.9 Gibson: 89.2
Kid Nichols: 116.3 Spahn: 100.1
Blyleven: 94.5 Feller: 63.4
Cone: 62.3 Morris: 43.5

Smith: 28.9 Henke: 22.9

Starting line up combined WAR:
646.6 - 423

Bench WAR:
49.6 - 131.4

Starting Pitchers:
383 - 296.2

Closers:
28.9 - 22.9

Combined team WAR:
1108.1 - 873.5
Starting lineup:
Mine is better and it's not really even close. Not much need to argue that one.

Bench:
His bench has a higher WAR but by the end of their career Bellinger, Acuna, and Bregman will almost certainly have a higher combined WAR.

162 game average:
Bellinger- 40 HR 104 RBI 105R 14 SB
Acuna- 41 HR 100 RBI 124 R 32 SB
Bregman- 31 HR 100 RBI 108 R 11 SB

Starting Pitchers:
At first glance I thought he might have the advantage here but after review I now believe that I might quietly have one of the best rotations in this draft. Seaver is better than Gibson and that's not taking anything away from Gibson. Seaver was just that good. Nichols has the 4th highest WAR of any pitcher in the history of baseball. Think about that for a second, 4th highest behind only Cy Young, Walter Johnson, and Roger Clemens. Blyleven is so sneaky good that he has the 12th highest pitching WAR of all-time. That gives my team the 4th, 7th, 12th best pitchers in the history of baseball (when ranked by WAR). And lets not forget David Cone, he's not exactly a throw in. He's ranked 55th in career WAR among pitchers and won a Cy Young Award.

To summarize, my team has the best 2 starting pitchers, 3 out of the 4 best and my 4th is equal to his 3rd. That means I'll have the starting pitcher advantage in all 7 games.

Closers:

Lee Smith had 478 career saves and was considered the best closer of all-time when he retired. He is still consider a top 5 closer.

Conclusion:

My team has the better lineup, starting staff, and closer. The argument could be made that my bench is better. My team has a 234.6 higher combined WAR and that is with me having 3 of the modern young stars in baseball on my bench. Just imagine how much WAR the will add by the end of their careers. I like my team.

I voted for your team, but I don’t feel like WAR is a fair model to use in this draft. We are getting players at their best, so WAR does not give a fair shake to a player like Darryl Strawberry

 

[csrupp]

I voted for your team, but I don’t feel like WAR is a fair model to use in this draft. We are getting players at their best, so WAR does not give a fair shake to a player like Darryl Strawberry

First let me say I appreciate your vote. Second, you may be right about Strawberry, he was a very talented player. We may never know how good he could have been, we do know, however, what he actually was statistically. If you take only his prime years, his 162 game average 37 HR 109 RBI 98 R 27 SB. Those are really good numbers. They are also pretty similar to the 162 game average of Bellinger and Acuna who I have on my bench.

Again, thank you for the vote. Out of curiosity, what did you like about my team that swayed your vote?

 

[Drcats2025]

First let me say I appreciate your vote. Second, you may be right about Strawberry, he was a very talented player. We may never know how good he could have been, we do know, however, what he actually was statistically. If you take only his prime years, his 162 game average 37 HR 109 RBI 98 R 27 SB. Those are really good numbers. They are also pretty similar to the 162 game average of Bellinger and Acuna who I have on my bench.

Again, thank you for the vote. Out of curiosity, what did you like about my team that swayed your vote?

3-7 in your lineup was what sold it for me. That’s some remarkable and legendary power. His pitching staff I give a slight nod to, but I like your lineup a lot better

 

[jrpross_rivals]

I voted for your team, but I don’t feel like WAR is a fair model to use in this draft. We are getting players at their best, so WAR does not give a fair shake to a player like Darryl Strawberry

Agree. It’d be better to use a single season WAR for the players in their prime if you use it.

 

[csrupp]

Agree. It’d be better to use a single season WAR for the players in their prime if you use it.

I disagree with this idea only because it would have completely changed the draft. There are some one hit wonders out there with 10+ single season WARs that went undrafted. But for the sake of argument I compared mine and kopikat's teams by single season WAR and my team has an even bigger advantage. I'd still have the best lineup, the best starting pitchers(note-if allowed to change my rotation, given the new scoring standards, I'd have the best starter in every game), the best closer, and now I'd also have the best bench. Here are the results:

Morgan: 11 Finley: 5.8
Jackson: 9.5 Jones: 7.6
Mantle: 11.3 Pujols: 9.7
Ott: 8.9 Parker: 7.4
Foxx: 10.4 Rice: 7.6
Thome: 7.5 Altuve: 7.9
Fisk: 7.3 McCann: 5.5
Lindor: 7.8 Simmons: 7.8

Bellinger: 9.1 Strawberry: 6.4
Acuna: 5.7 Soriano: 6.1
Bregman: 9.1 Sheffield: 6.8

Seaver: 10.6 Gibson: 11.2
Nichols 12.9 Spahn: 9.4
Blyleven 9.7 Feller: 10
Cone: 7.2 Morris: 5.8

Smith: 4.8 Henke: 3.4

Starting line up combined WAR:
73.7 - 59.3

Bench WAR:
23.9 - 19.3

Starting Pitchers:
40.4 - 36.4

Closers:

4.8 - 3.4

Combined team WAR:
142.8 - 118.4

 

[csrupp]

Perhaps the fairest metric to use is JAWS:

https://www.baseball-reference.com/about/jaws.shtml

JAWS averages career WAR with 7-year peak WAR. Using this metric is used to measure Hall of Fame worthiness.

Here is how the teams compare:

Morgan: 79.9 Finley: 38.1
Jackson: 57.3 Jones: 66
Mantle: 87.4 Pujols: 81.3
Ott: 82.4 Parker: 38.7
Foxx: 75.8 Rice: 42.1
Thome: 57.2 Altuve: 35.8
Fisk: 53 McCann: 28.3
Lindor: 27.6 Simmons: 35.3

Bellinger: 17.3 Strawberry: 38.5
Acuna: 9.9 Soriano: 28.1
Bregman: 22.4 Sheffield: 49.3

Tom Seaver: 84.6 Gibson: 75.2
Kid Nichols: 95.3 Spahn: 75.8
Blyleven: 72.4 Feller: 57.5
Cone: 52.8 Morris: 38

Smith: 20.8 Henke: 20.2

Starting line up combined JAWS:
520.6 - 365.6

Bench JAWS:
49.6 - 115.9

Starting Pitchers:
305.1 - 246.5

Closers:
20.8 - 20.2

Combined team JAWS:
896.1 - 748.2

Again, I have a massive lineup advantage and the best starting pitcher in all 7 games. My bench is much worse using this metric but it is punished for youth not for talent. The closers become close but I still have a small advantage there.

I simply can't find any justification for not voting for my team.

Thoughts?

 

[jrpross_rivals]

I disagree with this idea only because it would have completely changed the draft. There are some one hit wonders out there with 10+ single season WARs that went undrafted. But for the sake of argument I compared mine and kopikat's teams by single season WAR and my team has an even bigger advantage. I'd still have the best lineup, the best starting pitchers(note-if allowed to change my rotation, given the new scoring standards, I'd have the best starter in every game), the best closer, and now I'd also have the best bench. Here are the results:

Morgan: 11 Finley: 5.8
Jackson: 9.5 Jones: 7.6
Mantle: 11.3 Pujols: 9.7
Ott: 8.9 Parker: 7.4
Foxx: 10.4 Rice: 7.6
Thome: 7.5 Altuve: 7.9
Fisk: 7.3 McCann: 5.5
Lindor: 7.8 Simmons: 7.8

Bellinger: 9.1 Strawberry: 6.4
Acuna: 5.7 Soriano: 6.1
Bregman: 9.1 Sheffield: 6.8

Seaver: 10.6 Gibson: 11.2
Nichols 12.9 Spahn: 9.4
Blyleven 9.7 Feller: 10
Cone: 7.2 Morris: 5.8

Smith: 4.8 Henke: 3.4

Starting line up combined WAR:
73.7 - 59.3

Bench WAR:
23.9 - 19.3

Starting Pitchers:
40.4 - 36.4

Closers:

4.8 - 3.4

Combined team WAR:
142.8 - 118.4

That is a good point. I think it’s fair to do if that high WAR is fairly indicative of that player’s prime. Ruth had a preposterous WAR of 14.1 but he also had years of 12.8, 12.5, 11.8 etc. With one year wonders, I don’t know, you kinda have to look at their prime and use that prime as a base.

Roger Maris is a good example of a guy like that, I think. I wouldn’t look at him as a 61 home run guy. But that year was sandwiched between 39 and 33 homers. I’d be comfortable looking at him as a 40ish homer guy for that little stretch. Mind you, I don’t know what his WAR was during that time but that’s just kinda how I look at the competition in general.