Rules questions and thoughts

[Psu-cpa]

Have come to love the sport of wrestling, but had not followed for a long time so have a few questions and thoughts for the experts

1
There used to be ties with 2 pts for each team I recall. Why did they go to sudden victory/overtime? Should there not be team points for going to OT like in hockey when the team gets a point for an OT loss?

2
Why is a reversal only 2 pts? Seems like it is an escape and a takedown and should be 3.

3
Why only 1 pt for riding even when it goes over a minute? Seems like there should be at least 2 pts for 2 minutes. This would frequently come into play on the heavyweights.

Thanks for anyone's insights.

 

[El_Jefe]

Have come to love the sport of wrestling, but had not followed for a long time so have a few questions and thoughts for the experts

1
There used to be ties with 2 pts for each team I recall. Why did they go to sudden victory/overtime? Should there not be team points for going to OT like in hockey when the team gets a point for an OT loss?

2
Why is a reversal only 2 pts? Seems like it is an escape and a takedown and should be 3.

3
Why only 1 pt for riding even when it goes over a minute? Seems like there should be at least 2 pts for 2 minutes. This would frequently come into play on the heavyweights.

Thanks for anyone's insights.

FWIW:

1. Don't remember why but IMO it's good to have a winner instead of playing for a tie. Hockey OT team point rule would cause a lot of 3rd period stalling to capture that team point.

2. Reversal should not be worth more than a takedown. It's a comparable event (change of control) and not more than 1 event.

3. Riding time point should be eliminated altogether -- it incentives stalling. If not eliminated, then riding ime should only accumulate when top earns near fall points. More RT points = more top stalling.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Have come to love the sport of wrestling, but had not followed for a long time so have a few questions and thoughts for the experts

1
There used to be ties with 2 pts for each team I recall. Why did they go to sudden victory/overtime? Should there not be team points for going to OT like in hockey when the team gets a point for an OT loss?

2
Why is a reversal only 2 pts? Seems like it is an escape and a takedown and should be 3.

3
Why only 1 pt for riding even when it goes over a minute? Seems like there should be at least 2 pts for 2 minutes. This would frequently come into play on the heavyweights.

Thanks for anyone's insights.

1. the scoring for college wrestling has changed a great deal over time. A good overview (not every specific change) can be found at:

InterMat Rewind: Major Changes

intermatwrestle.com

2. As @El_Jefe indicated, a reversal and a takedown are comparable events. A reversal is quite different than an escape and a takedown. When reffing, especially with youth, there are times when it's tough to tell if it's an escape and then a takedown or just a reversal. (Youth often don't have a lot of skill, and riding control is not something a lot of them exhibit, so there can be multiple reversals in a period, or lots of escapes and subsequent takedowns, etc.) An escape and a takedown involves a loss of control by the offensive wrestler (which is an escape for the defensive wrestler), some interval of time (long or short) where neither wrestler has control, and then a takedown move by one of the wrestlers (could be either of them). A reversal, by contrast, doesn't involve a loss of control by the offensive wrestler or a period of no control.

3. Most changes over the years have been made to encourage action. Riding may show superior control when on top, and that's why there is a point awarded in at the end of the match if one wrestler has accumulated more than 1 minute of riding. To further incentivize riding and/or to award additional points for riding would not encourage any type of action other than basically stalling. @El_Jefe and I use different arguments, but we're basically saying the same thing regarding riding time. And FWIW, high school wrestling (folk, like college) doesn't award points for riding, and freestyle wrestling doesn't award points for riding, and nobody in high school or in freestyle seems to be clamoring for riding time.

 

[KSLion]

BFWIW:

1. Don't remember why but IMO it's good to have a winner instead of playing for a tie. Hockey OT team point rule would cause a lot of 3rd period stalling to capture that team point.

2. Reversal should not be worth more than a takedown. It's a comparable event (change of control) and not more than 1 event.

3. Riding time point should be eliminated altogether -- it incentives stalling. If not eliminated, then riding ime should only accumulate when top earns near fall points. More RT points = more top stalling.

Re: #2, above.

Understand both points of view, but have to agree with the OP on this one. When you go from a situation in which you are being controlled to one in which you take control of your opponent, there physically must be an instant of time, however brief, during which you pass from being controlled, thru a neutral situation where neither wrestler is in control, to a situation in which you are controlling your opponent. From where I sit, an escape should not have to last any minimum length of time before being scored. The only requisite is that you defeat your opponent's control and move to a neutral situation. For this purpose, an instant of neutrality should logically be as good as seven minutes.

Takedowns and reversals are certainly comparable events as your post states but are, just as certainly, not equal events given that the first is initiated from a neutral situation with both wrestlers on their feet, neither in control, and the second from a situation where one wrestler is controlling the other. To receive two points on a takedown, only one event must occur: Wrestler "A" must earn control over Wrestler "B". But to receive two points for a reversal, two separate events must occur: (1) an escape by Wrestler "B" followed by (2) his instantaneous assumption of control over Wrestler "A", with the escape being worth one point all by itself even if Wrestler "B" is unable to instantly gain control of his opponent to receive two reversal points. Essentially, the current approach to scoring a reversal robs Wrestler "B" of a point which he would've received if he failed to get immediate control of his opponent and was only able to get back to a neutral situation.

Or, in a nutshell, it looks like a situation where rulemakers should possibly be more concerned with event equality as opposed to event comparability in their structuring of point awards.

 

[manatree]

I’ve always disliked riding time and would be glad to see it go.

A reversal is not the same as an escape and takedown.

 

[SleepyLion]

I’ve always disliked riding time and would be glad to see it go.

A reversal is not the same as an escape and takedown.

I would like to see an additional half team point awarded for a fall or tech fall in the 2nd period and a full team point for a fall or tech fall in the 1st period. I think this would encourage more aggressive wrestling, at least early in the match and near the end of the periods.