Scottie Lindsey / Vic Law

[Dugan15]

Anytime one player passes another in minutes played on our career rankings, I wonder about their comparisons. It is sometimes interesting to challenge our theories of how we view a player. So, with appreciation for both, happy healing to Vic and excitement for the future:

Minutes Played -

SL - 800
VL - 780

GP -

SL - 49 (16:20 per game)
VL - 32 (24:20 per game)

GS -

SL - 13
VL - 19

Points / 40min -

SL - 12.90
VL - 11.49

3ptFG% -

SL - 38.52% (55.71% of shots)
VL - 35.53% (39.79% of shots)

2pt FG% -

SL - 48.45%
VL - 40.87%

eFG% -

SL - 53.65% (10.95 FGA / 40)
VL - 45.81% (9.79 FGA / 40)

FT% -

SL - 67.65% (1.70 FTA / 40)
VL - 76.56%..an anagram of Scottie's percentage. (3.28 FTA / 40)

TS% -

SL - 55.14%
VL - 51.10%

OR -

SL - 1.00 / 40 min
VL - 1.59 / 40

DR -

SL - 4.75 / 40
VL - 6.26 / 40

A -

SL - 2.30 / 40
VL - 2.10 / 40

S -

SL - 1.10 / 40
VL - 1.08 / 40

B -

SL - 0.95 / 40
VL - 0.77 / 40

TO -

SL - 2.00 / 40
VL - 2.46 / 40

 

[shakes3858]

I'm a big Vic Law fan, and have been watching him since early in his high school days. No offense to Sotty Lindsay, because he's a fine player, but I don't think this is a fair comparison because this kind of comparison doesn't factor in things like these statistics being generated over different seasons. Basically, Scott's numbers including time without Law on the floor this year, and they include the "sophomore bump" for Scotty, but don't include any "rookie learning curve" for Vic, who got thrown into the deep end literally from the very first game. So this is apples and oranges.

Scotty is a fine player but Vic is a multi-skilled, complete player in every respect, whose strength is his lack of weaknesses. I like Scotty's game a lot, and think he has the potential to be really excellent, but I don't think these types of statistical comparisons are fair without noting the factors that go into them.

I'll be very interested to see what happens with Law, Lindsey, Falzon, and Taphorn in the coming years. Does Demps leaving open up the 2 spots for Lindsey or will Ash/Brown be the 2? Will Falzon split time with Rapolas at the 4 or will it be primarily Rapolas at the 4 with Skelly getting 10 minutes a game? How does Law recover physically, and what type of player will he bed? It's amazing to me to think that the starting lineup next year could be Pardon, Rapolas, Falzon, Ash, McIntosh and neither Lindsey or Law would be a starter.

 

[Dugan15]

I'm a big Vic Law fan, and have been watching him since early in his high school days. No offense to Sotty Lindsay, because he's a fine player, but I don't think this is a fair comparison because this kind of comparison doesn't factor in things like these statistics being generated over different seasons. Basically, Scott's numbers including time without Law on the floor this year, and they include the "sophomore bump" for Scotty, but don't include any "rookie learning curve" for Vic, who got thrown into the deep end literally from the very first game. So this is apples and oranges.

Scotty is a fine player but Vic is a multi-skilled, complete player in every respect, whose strength is his lack of weaknesses. I like Scotty's game a lot, and think he has the potential to be really excellent, but I don't think these types of statistical comparisons are fair without noting the factors that go into them.

Exmo: I thought about saying the same thing (re: 100% of Vic's minutes were in his frosh year, while Scottie's minutes are over 40% composed by his sophomore year. Please don't take offense...just throwing some numbers out there to get a dialogue going.

 

[willycat]

I'll be very interested to see what happens with Law, Lindsey, Falzon, and Taphorn in the coming years. Does Demps leaving open up the 2 spots for Lindsey or will Ash/Brown be the 2? Will Falzon split time with Rapolas at the 4 or will it be primarily Rapolas at the 4 with Skelly getting 10 minutes a game? How does Law recover physically, and what type of player will he bed? It's amazing to me to think that the starting lineup next year could be Pardon, Rapolas, Falzon, Ash, McIntosh and neither Lindsey or Law would be a starter.

That's a pretty good starting five, except Law will start, either at the 2 or the 3 with Falzon sliding over to the 4. Three freshman coming in will all have the chance to play meaningful minutes, Including Benson, who will have to backup Pardon because the only other potential 5 is Skelly. Hopefully another ride will come available and NU can go after another big or a shooting guard, maybe even with a 5th year transfer.

 

[NURoseBowl]

Exmo: I thought about saying the same thing (re: 100% of Vic's minutes were in his frosh year, while Scottie's minutes are over 40% composed by his sophomore year. Please don't take offense...just throwing some numbers out there to get a dialogue going.

As you guys say, you can't just look at these raw numbers as though they exist in a vacuum, but yes, this is a very interesting side-by-side. Thanks as always, Dugan.

 

[ToledoCat]

Great analysis for two key contributors. For any data there must be context. V Law can be a next level player but SL will be closer to VL over his career than I would have guessed. The two off them with Ash give us depth at 2. If VLAW does hit his top 100 player potential - it will be as a great rebounding, defending two guard.

 

[shakes3858]

That's a pretty good starting five, except Law will start, either at the 2 or the 3 with Falzon sliding over to the 4. Three freshman coming in will all have the chance to play meaningful minutes, Including Benson, who will have to backup Pardon because the only other potential 5 is Skelly. Hopefully another ride will come available and NU can go after another big or a shooting guard, maybe even with a 5th year transfer.

No way Rap doesn't start

 

[willycat]

No way Rap doesn't start

Maybe but that's a big leap up for a freshman. Admittedly, I've not seen him play but Falzone had similar hype and he is mostly coming off the bench. Still Law has to be in the starting for NU and probably most Big Ten teams. I'm more concerned about the center spot, especially those backing up Pardon. Maybe that extra schlorship will come in handy.

 

[shakes3858]

Maybe but that's a big leap up for a freshman. Admittedly, I've not seen him play but Falzone had similar hype and he is mostly coming off the bench. Still Law has to be in the starting for NU and probably most Big Ten teams. I'm more concerned about the center spot, especially those backing up Pardon. Maybe that extra schlorship will come in handy.

No Falzon is starting (I think every game except the exhibition) and is 4th on the team in minutes per game. McIntosh, Law, Lindsey, and Falzon have started games as true freshman. Pardon isn't the "starter" but is averaging 22.3 minutes a night, meaning he's getting over 1/2 the minutes at Center (in other words more than the starter). That's 5 freshman that have made the jump in the Collins era. Additionally, for a portion of last year, Lindsey took the starting job away from Law. In other words, I don't see why Law would have to be starting for NU. He might, he might not, but nothing is set in stone especially when he's coming off an injury.

 

[NJCat83588]

Great analysis for two key contributors. For any data there must be context. V Law can be a next level player but SL will be closer to VL over his career than I would have guessed. The two off them with Ash give us depth at 2. If VLAW does hit his top 100 player potential - it will be as a great rebounding, defending two guard.

This is why the head ball coach says "stats are for losers". I don't care what the stats say, Vic is by far the better player, even though Scottie has a half season more experience. The second half of last season, Vic was playing with mroe confidence than Scottie has shown in almost all of the Big 10 games this year. Vic will play a bigger role next season without question.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

Maybe but that's a big leap up for a freshman. Admittedly, I've not seen him play but Falzone had similar hype and he is mostly coming off the bench. Still Law has to be in the starting for NU and probably most Big Ten teams. I'm more concerned about the center spot, especially those backing up Pardon. Maybe that extra schlorship will come in handy.

I see Brown backing up Mac. I think Lindsey or Ash gets the 2 with Law there at times. I think Law gets an open shot to start at the 3, with Lump and Tap in the background. Falzon at the 4 with the lumphorn twins backing him up. Pardon at the five with Benson behind him.

Unless RI dominates, he is in a crowded room and might be looking at a RS. I would really like a 5th year at PG or C and have a chance to shirt one of the other frosh too.

But every year, we have an injury. Who next? Law with complications? Mac would be the worse case so... I think the other real bad spot would be an injury at the 5. So little depth with big guys next year... We could really use that schollie.

 

[Sec_112]

Dugan:

Out of curiosity, does the TRS-80 have access to foul numbers?

If it's easy to find, great. If not, no biggie.

Thanks.

 

[NUCat320]

This is why the head ball coach says "stats are for losers". I don't care what the stats say, Vic is by far the better player, even though Scottie has a half season more experience. The second half of last season, Vic was playing with mroe confidence than Scottie has shown in almost all of the Big 10 games this year. Vic will play a bigger role next season without question.

I don't know that Vic's a good enough ball handler to be a starting 2. That said, I have the same question about Lindsey. Both those things said, it'll be either Lindsey or Law starting at the two, and the starting two might not be as strong of a ballhandler as you'd like.

Ash has all the makings of a solid contributor. It's unfair to make pronouncements 15 games into a career, but he doesn't seem to have star potential like SL and (moreso) VL have.

And I'm of course intrigued by Brown. You can't post 50-point games by accident.

 

[hdhntr1]

Exmo: I thought about saying the same thing (re: 100% of Vic's minutes were in his frosh year, while Scottie's minutes are over 40% composed by his sophomore year. Please don't take offense...just throwing some numbers out there to get a dialogue going.

Probably more important that more of SL's minutes are against NC foes. THat said, really pretty close. The problem for Law next year is that he is likely to be closer to the same player as he was as a Frosh because he will not have developed much if at all this year and may sort of slide back a bit. His base will be stronger but upper body has to recover as well and he is restricted in regaining strength

 

[hdhntr1]

I don't know that Vic's a good enough ball handler to be a starting 2. That said, I have the same question about Lindsey. Both those things said, it'll be either Lindsey or Law starting at the two, and the starting two might not be as strong of a ballhandler as you'd like.

Ash has all the makings of a solid contributor. It's unfair to make pronouncements 15 games into a career, but he doesn't seem to have star potential like SL and (moreso) VL have.

And I'm of course intrigued by Brown. You can't post 50-point games by accident.

Really hard to say on Ash as he generally comes in to spell BMac. And when he does,Demps is on the floor so we really never see him an a 2 role. Plus the staph infection sort of set him back. I see both VL and SL as more 3's

 

[Sec_112]

I had to look it up ...

Personal fouls ...

SL - 99
VL - 76

It's such a HUGE problem among many in Lindsey's game.

I'd love to see him given an opportunity at the 2. But:

a) He doesn't deserve it, even considering as bad as Demps is playing.
b) If you had to depend on SL for 25 mins/game, I think he'd foul out most of the time.

I don't quite get what the problem is. There seems to be enough talent that you should get something out of him. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he has his game under control. He hasn't learned that simple concept that the INCREDIBLE play (on both offense and defense) isn't always the safest play for the team.

 

[NJCat83588]

Really hard to say on Ash as he generally comes in to spell BMac. And when he does,Demps is on the floor so we really never see him an a 2 role. Plus the staph infection sort of set him back. I see both VL and SL as more 3's

Actually, when Ash comes in Demps has been the primary ballhandler, so you do see him in the 2 role.

 

[GOUNUII]

I had to look it up ...

Personal fouls ...

SL - 99
VL - 76

It's such a HUGE problem among many in Lindsey's game.

I'd love to see him given an opportunity at the 2. But:

a) He doesn't deserve it, even considering as bad as Demps is playing.
b) If you had to depend on SL for 25 mins/game, I think he'd foul out most of the time.

I don't quite get what the problem is. There seems to be enough talent that you should get something out of him. Unfortunately, I'm not sure he has his game under control. He hasn't learned that simple concept that the INCREDIBLE play (on both offense and defense) isn't always the safest play for the team.

The problem as I see it with SL is that he lacks energy on both ends. That's mental and physical energy. Slow to react defensively ( and therefore foul prone ) and slow to assert himself offensively within the framework of the offense. CC is a high energy coach looking for the same in his players. He doesn't have many options at the 2 and 3 spots. And SL has shown flashes. So CC has no choice but to give the guy minutes. But as CC's options increase, I fear we will continue to see Scottie's minutes decline. That would be a shame too. The young man has demonstrated some natural hoops talents. From a skill set and physical attribute perspective, the only thing I see missing is a good handle and some spurtability. But without a higher level of physical and mental energy, those skills haven't translated to the production you need from a BIG wing player. Wishing SL the best.

GOUNUII

 

[Walker Fan]

I agree with GouNuII, Lindsey has shown flashes but then falls asleep on defense and reaches and fouls. On offense, the ball is in McIntosh and Demps hands most of the time so his role is simply as a spot up shooter. He looked good against Minny and the offense flowed. He made a couple of shots, stole the ball and went all the way for a dunk. Weak against UW and disappeared against Penn St. What I see is a lack of lateral quickness on defense that forces him to reach and fouls way too much. On offense, is more of a spot up jump shooter and does not dribble drive which most quality shooting guards do. He and Falzon are "x" factors for the offense. They need to contribute more consistently. But Falzon has shown a fire on the court and Falzon is not afraid to mix it up. I have not seen that toughness with Lindsey which you need to succeed in the Big 10.

SL's limitations on defense put him way behind Vic Law. Law can guard SGs (Denzell Valentine) to some smaller PFs (Troy Williams) or stretch 4s (Uthoff). This squad could have used him on Saturday against 6'7", 230 lbs. Brandon Taylor who simply outmuscled and pushed around 6'5" Sanjay Lumpkin.

Law's shooting on three point shots in the second half of the 2014 Big 10 season was much improved and Law has much more explosive jumping ability. From what I briefly saw in the exhibition game that Law played in he was working on his dribble penetration from the perimeter. I see him splitting his time at SF/SG next season. As for Lindsey, we need to see improvement over the last 12 games, starting tomorrow night against Sulaimon who has been very good the past five games.

 

[NUCat320]

Have we ever actually Law guard shooting guards? I sincerely doubt he eas ever pressed into service in the backcourt last season.

I think he's got great potential – many times last year, I compared his stats and performances to a freshman John Shurna - but there is also a lot of "absence makes the heart grow fonder" happening in this thread.

Whoever steps into the role next year you will have a significant hole to fill. Each of the two likely and four possible options bring questions with them. It will be interesting.

(Not as interesting as of January, February, and March of this year, however.)

 

[corbi2961]

The problem as I see it with SL is that he lacks energy on both ends. That's mental and physical energy. Slow to react defensively ( and therefore foul prone ) and slow to assert himself offensively within the framework of the offense. CC is a high energy coach looking for the same in his players. He doesn't have many options at the 2 and 3 spots. And SL has shown flashes. So CC has no choice but to give the guy minutes. But as CC's options increase, I fear we will continue to see Scottie's minutes decline. That would be a shame too. The young man has demonstrated some natural hoops talents. From a skill set and physical attribute perspective, the only thing I see missing is a good handle and some spurtability. But without a higher level of physical and mental energy, those skills haven't translated to the production you need from a BIG wing player. Wishing SL the best.

GOUNUII

I think you have captured the essence of Lindsay very well. He is an enigma and a very frustrating player to watch. As some of you may recall, I was surprised that Collins would recruit him and was skeptical of his ability to be a contributor at the Big Ten level. My skepticism was not based on a belief that he lacked the skills and physical talent but more based on a lack of energy/desire. I watched the kid extensively when he was at Fenwick HS and saw the same things you guys are seeing now. From a physical standpoint he should have consistently been the best player on the floor most nights but often was no better than the 4 or 5th best player on HIS OWN TEAM. His HS coach during the last two seasons at Fenwick was Rick Malnati, in my opinion one of the best HS coaches in the state of Illinois. The guy is also a fiery and emotional coach along the lines of a Chris Collins. Lindsay drove Malnati crazy with his inconsistency and lack of intensity. I hope SL figures it out soon but I would not be surprised if Collins increasingly chooses to have him ride the bench.

 

[NJCat83588]

[QUOTE="corbi296, post: 226547, member: 538" As some of you may recall, I was surprised that Collins would recruit him and was skeptical of his ability to be a contributor at the Big Ten level. [/QUOTE]

To be fair to Collins, he needed bodies in his first class and has a few "reaches" in it (Vassar, Lindsey, Skelly), guys who he would not be recruiting for the class of 2017 for example. Such is life for a new coach at a bottom half of the Big 10 program. Maybe the lightbulb goes on for Scottie, maybe not. He still has 2 years to mature and blossom.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

[QUOTE="corbi296, post: 226547, member: 538" As some of you may recall, I was surprised that Collins would recruit him and was skeptical of his ability to be a contributor at the Big Ten level.

To be fair to Collins, he needed bodies in his first class and has a few "reaches" in it (Vassar, Lindsey, Skelly), guys who he would not be recruiting for the class of 2017 for example. Such is life for a new coach at a bottom half of the Big 10 program. Maybe the lightbulb goes on for Scottie, maybe not. He still has 2 years to mature and blossom.[/QUOTE]

Still, we have to know what we have in Ash and Lindsey, we know what we have in Demps. (And we have been running Demps and Mac way too long in games.) Taking some of Demps minutes and 3-5 of Macs minutes, and then distributing them to Ash and Lindsey will reveal much.

Fast forward to next year, worse case - Brown at the 1, Mac at the 2, Law at the 3 - or Mac at the 1, Law at the 2, RI at the 3. But if we have a known and workable quantity in Ash or Lindsey, we don't have to pressure one the frosh to start or play heavy, if at all next year.

 

[xxxbobxxx]

We also have three high level recruits at the 2. Knowing the quality of the players in front of them and their chances of PT early might tip a leaner...

If Lindsey and Ash didn't perform after getting real PT, I think CCC saying that the starting 2 spot was wide open would have to be a draw.