So Tom Brady is the GOAT, right?

[YourPublicEnemy]

It's pretty hard to argue that there was a better QB with overall success especially when you look at the numbers.

BTW, this could be a Boston area sports team's 10th championship from all four of their teams since 2001.

 

[herodotus6]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

 

[assistbyhawkins]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

Yep. Im much more inclined to give the credit to Belichick than I am Brady. Brady is great, no doubt, but he's not the Goat. His coach, however, is the goat.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

The guy has done it with a completely different team over the course of 15 years and how many seasons did he have star wide outs? Moss, Welker, Gronk and that crew only brought one Super Bowl and that was Gronk. Most of his other guys did nothing after they left NE.

Montana's success came when there was no salary cap so he was able to keep his group intact so that hurts him.

Manning is the other QB that obviously has a case but his postseason stats are just so below Brady that it's hard to put Manning above him.

 

[dgtatu01]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

Hot take? His WR group was the worst that played yesterday. He won Super Bowls with Deion freaking Branch as his go to WR. Your take is silly and unoriginal and discredits his accomplished. He's not Troy Aikman playing for the Cowboys in the 90's.

 

[Estil]

What is up with this GOAT acronym standing for "Greatest of All Time"? I thought a "goat" in sports lingo traditionally was the player who made the most costly blunder towards his team's loss. You know, how Charlie Brown would lament "I could've been the hero but instead I'm the goat..." with in one case Snoopy making goat horns with his ears shouting Baaaaaahhhhh! at him! (CB: "Man's best friend...!")

 

[Estil]

Hot take? His WR group was the worst that played yesterday. He won Super Bowls with Deion freaking Branch as his go to WR. Your take is silly and unoriginal and discredits his accomplished. He's not Troy Aikman playing for the Cowboys in the 90's.

While we're on that subject, that's got to be awfully embarrassing that though the 'Boys won three Super Bowls out of four years (1992, 1993, 1995), the so-called "America's Team" has not even made the conference championship game since...them once again wasting a #1 seed this year extends that streak to 21 years.

 

[AustinTXCat]

<- - - - 'Boys fan since 1970.

While we're on that subject, that's got to be awfully embarrassing that though the 'Boys won three Super Bowls out of four years (1992, 1993, 1995), the so-called "America's Team" has not even made the conference championship game since...them once again wasting a #1 seed this year extends that streak to 21 years.

True.

Words like "sickening", "nauseating" and "melt-down" also come to mind.

 

[Kooky Kats]

#weareallfalcons

 

[dgtatu01]

#weareallfalcons

I am already predicting a huge bandwagon jump on the Falcons. I think people are going to overreact to their GB victory. I think the public is going to bet this game down to a pick em' because of it. Give me the team with the best D, the best QB, the best coach, and 4 rings in a pick em' all day. And give me the under on 58 right now. I will wait till the game goes pick em to dropymoney on the Pats.

 

[rabidcatfan]

It's pretty hard to argue that there was a better QB with overall success especially when you look at the numbers.

BTW, this could be a Boston area sports team's 10th championship from all four of their teams since 2001.

NO!!! Brady is the beneficiary of being surrounded by some amazing talent for an extended period of time. That talent has made him look much better than he really is. Put Brady on the damn Browns and see if he ever sniffs a Super Bowl.

 

[qwesley]

All the guys in the convo for the best of all time played with great players and coaches. I hate the Pats and Brady but he has perfected that system. They use his height, quick release, accuracy and intelligence to pick apart the middle of the field and make pass rushes almost irrelevant. The Steelers zone coverage was just too easy for him. He shows no signs of slowing down.

 

[qwesley]

Montana's success came when there was no salary cap so he was able to keep his group intact so that hurts him.

I have always said Montana because he was so clutch but you are right about the cap, and then they got punished for cheating the cap system. They had some great drafts and kept them together.

 

[true55]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

NONSENSE!!!!!!

 

[Ron Mehico]

Although definitely part of a great system you have to give credit where credit is due at this point. He's definitely top 3, don't think that's debatable anymore.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

Yep. Im much more inclined to give the credit to Belichick than I am Brady. Brady is great, no doubt, but he's not the Goat. His coach, however, is the goat.

Yep, I've been saying this for years.

I don't have many pet peeves, but one of them is around this time of year this stupid conversation always erupts about the greatest QB ever - and the starting point is always team success! Always about counting rings. Brady - any QB - doesn't rush the passer, doesn't run block or pass block, doesn't catch the ball or defend the pass or punt or kick or cover punts or kicks. Football is always touted to be the ultimate team sport, and it may be. So why give one guy, one position, all the credit. It's like in baseball they used to compare won/loss records as the real measure of a pitcher - until finally someone figured out if you play for the Yankees you're likely to have a better record than someone who pitches for the Cubs. And it doesn't mean you're a better pitcher.

How many players, coaches and front office types have excelled in New England and floundered elsewhere? The players list is forever long, and add Charlie Weiss, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniel, and several other coaches, and Scott Pioli, at least, as a front office exec. All of that is Belichick. He is the epicenter of everything that happens in Boston. Everyone else, including Brady, "just does his job". Now, Brady is a great QB, but he's a piece of a system. Same way I always thought about Montana. If Montana doesn't have Walsh designing his system, doesn't have the pieces around him, he's just another QB. Team/system dependent. I always said Manning and Marino were the 2 best I ever saw, they just played for bad teams, coaches, defenses, etc. I think the season Manning won with the Colts he had the worst run defense in the history of modern football. So think about that....And now, you can make the case that Rodgers is better than any of them. But he plays for Mike McCarthy. Which has nothing to do with his abilities as QB. I heard Mike Greenberg the other day say Aaron Rodgers is playing QB better than anyone who ever lived. Then later, in the discussion of best ever, he said he couldn't rank Rodgers in the top 5 of all time because he doesn't have enough rings. And that is the problem in a nutshell. It's stupid. If Rodgers is playing better QB than anyone ever, he's number 1. Period, end of discussion......

Have I mentioned this is a pet peeve?.......

 

[JBHolmesfan]

Yep, I've been saying this for years.

I don't have many pet peeves, but one of them is around this time of year this stupid conversation always erupts about the greatest QB ever - and the starting point is always team success! Always about counting rings. Brady - any QB - doesn't rush the passer, doesn't run block or pass block, doesn't catch the ball or defend the pass or punt or kick or cover punts or kicks. Football is always touted to be the ultimate team sport, and it may be. So why give one guy, one position, all the credit. It's like in baseball they used to compare won/loss records as the real measure of a pitcher - until finally someone figured out if you play for the Yankees you're likely to have a better record than someone who pitches for the Cubs. And it doesn't mean you're a better pitcher.

How many players, coaches and front office types have excelled in New England and floundered elsewhere? The players list is forever long, and add Charlie Weiss, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniel, and several other coaches, and Scott Pioli, at least, as a front office exec. All of that is Belichick. He is the epicenter of everything that happens in Boston. Everyone else, including Brady, "just does his job". Now, Brady is a great QB, but he's a piece of a system. Same way I always thought about Montana. If Montana doesn't have Walsh designing his system, doesn't have the pieces around him, he's just another QB. Team/system dependent. I always said Manning and Marino were the 2 best I ever saw, they just played for bad teams, coaches, defenses, etc. I think the season Manning won with the Colts he had the worst run defense in the history of modern football. So think about that....And now, you can make the case that Rodgers is better than any of them. But he plays for Mike McCarthy. Which has nothing to do with his abilities as QB. I heard Mike Greenberg the other day say Aaron Rodgers is playing QB better than anyone who ever lived. Then later, in the discussion of best ever, he said he couldn't rank Rodgers in the top 5 of all time because he doesn't have enough rings. And that is the problem in a nutshell. It's stupid. If Rodgers is playing better QB than anyone ever, he's number 1. Period, end of discussion......

Have I mentioned this is a pet peeve?.......

I agree. If we want to talk championships as a measure to judge players we really should be talking about golf or tennis. You know, the individual sports.

Joe Thomas is considered the best LT in the game. How ridiculous would it sound for someone to say "yea he's good, but he's never even been to the playoffs. I can't put up with there with other left tackles"? They'd be rightfully mocked. Yet, that type of stuff happens all the time when debating QBs.

 

[UKwizard]

If my life depended on a quarterback leading a team 80 yards to a touchdown to win a game in the last 2 minutes I'm picking Joe Montana :100points:

 

[herodotus6]

Brady had had the best offensive line in the of any team year in and year out to give him time to throw the football. And he's had targets like Moss, Welker, Troy Brown, Julian Edelman, and even though someone listed him as a **** WR, Deion Branch his entire career. You give those weapons and that much time to throw to any of the other three that played yesterday, I guarantee they put up better stats and win more Super Bowls than Brady.

Whoever tried to use Branch as an example of a horrible WR, he just averaged 13 YPC, 39TDs in 140 games with Brady, and won a Super Bowl MVP, but hey, he's awful. GTFO.

 

[ky8335]

Matt Cassel won 12 games in that system.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Brady had had the best offensive line in the of any team year in and year out to give him time to throw the football. And he's had targets like Moss, Welker, Troy Brown, Julian Edelman, and even though someone listed him as a **** WR, Deion Branch his entire career. You give those weapons and that much time to throw to any of the other three that played yesterday, I guarantee they put up better stats and win more Super Bowls than Brady.

Whoever tried to use Branch as an example of a horrible WR, he just averaged 13 YPC, 39TDs in 140 games with Brady, and won a Super Bowl MVP, but hey, he's awful. GTFO.

But Brady never won a Super Bowl with Moss or Welker. Deion Branch did nothing when he went to the Seahawks after his first stint with the Pats and Troy Brown was a role player and these were his stats during those three Super Bowl seasons.

2004 New England Patriots 12 17 184 yds 10.8 15.3 22 1 TD
2003 New England Patriots 12 40 472 yds 11.8 39.3 82T 4 TDs
2001 New England Patriots 16 101 1,199 yds 11.9 74.9 60T 5 TDs

Brady winning a title in 2014 is what cemented his legacy to me after a decade from his last one. He has a 24-9 playoff record. The 24 wins is more than the entire franchise history of 25 other NFL franchises. He and Bill are linked in success with each other as Bill has never won a Super Bowl as a head coach without Brady and Brady never won one without him.

Some will point to Matt Cassell going 11-5 the year Brady got hurt but remember, they didn't even make the playoffs that year. How many times has the Pats missed the playoffs with Brady as their starter? Just once and that was in 2002.

 

[herodotus6]

You just proved my point with your own argument. Matt freaking Cassell went 11-5 and did jack and **** the rest of his career. That's a testament to the team, not Brady. Now, imagine a Matty Ice or Aaron Rodgers who can scamble on the time his line lets him down.

 

[Cawood86_rivals]

Not a fan of a coach or player that have been penalized for blatant cheating. So no, neither Brady or his coach are in the conversation IMO. Everything they have accomplished is tainted.

 

[RacerX.ksr]

George Blanda

 

[JBHolmesfan]

You just proved my point with your own argument. Matt freaking Cassell went 11-5 and did jack and **** the rest of his career. That's a testament to the team, not Brady. Now, imagine a Matty Ice or Aaron Rodgers who can scamble on the time his line lets him down.

That and the Colts got the #1 draft pick when Manning got hurt for the season.

 

[PhattyJ4UK_rivals309166]

Falcons gonna whoop that arseeee

 

[Zakk Wyldcat]

Elway. IMO.

 

[GrandePdre]

Montana had the greatest player in NFL history playing for him in Jerry Rice. Manning had a HoF'er in Marvin Harrison. Elway didn't win squat until Terrell Davis came to town.

Brady? How many HoF players has he played with on the title years? Gronk (maybe)? You all can talk about the "system" all you want, but only elite QBs could win like him there. Rodgers, Manning, maybe Matt Ryan. None of them would do **** for the Browns, either.

Dude has been to 7 Super Bowls now. 4-2, and favored to go 5-2. And he's throwing to a bunch of white dudes and castoff players from other organizations. He's the best QB who also happens to be in the best system. His ability makes that system work so well. Hate to admit it, but he's the best ever.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

Yep, Belichick has now coached 20 regular season games without Brady in New England, and is 14-6. 11-5 with the infamous Matt Cassell and 3-1 with the fearsome combo of Jimmy Garapolo and Jacoby Brissett. That's a winning percentage of .700.

The year Manning was unexpectedly unavailable, the Colts went 2-14.

 

[Mojocat_rivals48469]

Isn't MVP a better indicator of an individual player's performance than a team accomplishment?

Manning has 5, I believe, and Brady 2.

This conversation happened on twitter a few years ago between players and explayers, and one guys said Manning and Belichick would have 8 rings (by then)...

 

[qwesley]

Yep, I've been saying this for years.

How many players, coaches and front office types have excelled in New England and floundered elsewhere? The players list is forever long, and add Charlie Weiss, Romeo Crennel, Josh McDaniel, and several other coaches, and Scott Pioli, at least, as a front office exec. All of that is Belichick.

Have I mentioned this is a pet peeve?.......

I agree but fyi Pioli is in the Falcons front office now. I think he is legit.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

You just proved my point with your own argument. Matt freaking Cassell went 11-5 and did jack and **** the rest of his career. That's a testament to the team, not Brady. Now, imagine a Matty Ice or Aaron Rodgers who can scamble on the time his line lets him down.

I didn't prove your point. They didn't make the playoffs.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

Isn't MVP a better indicator of an individual player's performance than a team accomplishment?

Manning has 5, I believe, and Brady 2.

This conversation happened on twitter a few years ago between players and explayers, and one guys said Manning and Belichick would have 8 rings (by then)...

I like Manning and he's probably my favorite player of all-time. If it's the regular season, I'm taking Manning. However, it is very hard to ignore Manning's postseason performance compared to Brady's postseason performance.

 

[JBHolmesfan]

I didn't prove your point. They didn't make the playoffs.

They still went 11-5. Was the Seahwaks QB good when they made the playoffs but were 8-8? I mean they made the playoffs so he has to be good.

Brady is a great QB, undoubtedly, but you can't say it's because he wins. His team wins. He's not the sole reason why they win. There's 21 other starters not including special teams that make a difference in the outcome of the games. The Patriots going 11-5 proves that they can win without Brady. 11-5 is going to win a division more often than not and gets you into the playoffs almost every time. So them not making the playoffs has more to do with the other teams in the conference than Matt Cassell. It's an outlier in records not a testament to Tom Brady.

 

[herodotus6]

I didn't prove your point. They didn't make the playoffs.

You absolutely did. Matt Cassell was ****-tastic and went 11-5. That record will not only get you in the playoffs it usually gets first round byes 90% of the time. Just because they missed them that year doesn't take away from the argument that any QB can succeed in that system. Put Brady in a system like Cleveland, Detroit, or Jacksonville and lets see how great he really is.

 

[cardkilla_rivals379685]

The guy has done it with a completely different team over the course of 15 years and how many seasons did he have star wide outs? Moss, Welker, Gronk and that crew only brought one Super Bowl and that was Gronk. Most of his other guys did nothing after they left NE.

Montana's success came when there was no salary cap so he was able to keep his group intact so that hurts him.

Manning is the other QB that obviously has a case but his postseason stats are just so below Brady that it's hard to put Manning above him.

Patriots are the biggest bunch of cheaters in the league. Only reason you like Brady is because he likes Trump. Literally, the only reason. And probably like that the Patriots cheat.

 

[wildcatsboston1984_rivals]

HOT TAKE: Give any of the other three QBs that played today the line and receiving weapons he's had and they put up better numbers and win more titles.

His two current top receivers, Edelman and Hogan, had 13 career receptions in college.

 

[LineSkiCat14]

No, and he never will be.

Ask yourself this question. You're making $5million as a coach. If you don't win a superbowl next year, you're out. Fired. You have your team, but you need a QB. Who do you pick?

No one is picking Tom Brady, when all things are equal*. He might crack the top3. I'm going, for this year: Rodgers, Ryan, Brees to start, easily. I might consider Tom Brady next because of his experience, and he rarely makes a mistake.



*things like not having a top3 defense for what seems like every year, not having Belichick, not having two HOF kickers, not having to play 6 games against an AFCE division that has arguably been one of the worst divisions in the last 15 years, not having a top5 O-line every year, not having exceptional cordinators.. and last but not least, not cheating.

 

[Pope John Wall II]

The only people still denying Tom as the GOAT are the same type of people who won't give Calipari his due after a surface-level investigation of his history and declare "he's a cheater".

Ignorant fans who abide by confirmation bias.

 

[YourPublicEnemy]

You absolutely did. Matt Cassell was ****-tastic and went 11-5. That record will not only get you in the playoffs it usually gets first round byes 90% of the time. Just because they missed them that year doesn't take away from the argument that any QB can succeed in that system. Put Brady in a system like Cleveland, Detroit, or Jacksonville and lets see how great he really is.

How great is anybody if they play for terrible franchises? How many titles does Kobe have if he plays for Charlotte? How many titles does Emmit Smith have if he plays for the Bengals?

Not just anyone can be plugged into the system and win Super Bowls. It didn't work for Bill in Cleveland. He went 5-11 with NE the year before Brady took over as his starter. Not to mention, Matt Cassell's stats weren't crazy. He threw for 21 TDs and 11 INTs for 3,600 yards. The year before that, Brady threw for 50 TDs, 8 INTs and 4,800 yards.