Stoops vs Franklin

JPFisher

Heisman
Jul 24, 2013
6,107
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I've heard a lot of folks cite Franklin's immediate success as reason it's inexcusable for Stoops not to follow suit. I think the following can be applied to several other immediate success stories and not just Franklin/Vandy.

Don't know if it's been talked about before, but what are the chances that the discrepancy between Franklin and Stoops is because of different motives?

Franklin took over and had immediate success and improvement from first to second season. He then bolted after the third season- leaving Vandy with a plethora of schollys graduating. His stock was so high, I honestly think OSU, Bama, or any other big boy would've come after him. Strategically, he held the cards for whatever position he wanted at any potential school in the country, maybe even a shot at an NFL stint. Franklin was born in Penn so it makes sense he'd want to get that position and if he had enough success at an SEC doormat, he could sway the AD/Pres at PSU to hire him over Paterno. At least vying for the reigns. If not immediately at Penn, then at some other larger institute.

I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy. Merely that there seemed to be so many cards that fell in place... I never really felt Franklin was going to stay at Vandy. Never. I can't validate this, but it seemed like he schemed around weaknesses instead of addressing them. As soon as Franklin left, Vandy crashed hard. We have yet to see if their new coach can right the ship, but it's definitely been difficult for them. There are so many gaps and depth issues on Vandy's roster that any coach, even Franklin, would have trouble figuring out the mess.

Stoops on the other hand is recruiting to fill needs and depth. We don't seem to be scheming around our weaknesses but rather trying to attack them head-on... Even if it doesn't work in the short term. I feel like Stoops is trying to develop a base from which to build a long-term contender versus a stepping stone for his career. Perhaps this is why we aren't seeing the near immediate results that Vandy enjoyed in Franklin's short stint.

Building a foundation for a house doesn't end when you dig the hole for it. Yeah, it's impressive that you dug halfway to China, but what good does it do without being filled with concrete? Build a house on a hole and the house will fall. I feel like Peveto when I make these comparisons. Lol.

Now, there was definitely a dichotomy or other issue(s) in the locker room this season. That definitely affected some of our performance. Overall, I think we can get it back on track with how we're recruiting and replacing experience with talent. Yeah, we're probably not going to see 9 wins next season, but I'd rather have a good base to work with so that even if Stoops does bolt or get fired, we have something for the next coach to work with.

I trust Stoops and am just offering an opinion. Could be totally out in left field. Anyway, that's my two cents. Your thoughts?
 

UKani

Junior
Dec 5, 2003
4,041
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Well we have to understand though, in this comparison what was inherited by both coaches:

Franklin at Vandy inherited an NFL WR (Matthews) and others who could get open and catch the ball, Stoops had to create whole new personnel to play WR.

Next we also have to understand that Franklin inherited Jordan Rodgers at QB who spent 2 years in the NFL and now has found a home in the CFL. The last QB that UK had that good was Andre Woodson.... The QB that Mark Stoops inherited (Patrick Towles) has NFL talent, but not NFL accuracy nor read defenses at that level.

Also understand that Franklin inherited Zack Stacy at RB who is still in the NFL, Mark Stoops inherited Raymon Sanders, a hurt Josh Clemons, and Dyshawn Mobley. Mobley and Sanders a high IQ, but neither are close as good as Zack Stacy.

Franklin also had some OLinemen that spent short years in the NFL before being cut. UK hasn't had that under Stoops except for maybe Darrian Miller.

So that's just offense alone.....

Let alone Franklin had some DB's sniff the NFL and I believe 1 is still there.

So if you are going to do a comparison then you have to cite that Franklin had UNDERATED talent that is going on to do some stuff at an even higher level. Stoops didn't inherit as many guys like that. People really have to understand that the stats show that UK Football talent was at an all time low of all Power conference when Stoops took over. I think that's the single fact that people don't want to accept, because they say that you are blaming this on Joker. But fact is fact....
 

UKWildcats#8

All-American
Jun 25, 2011
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Stoops is not as good a coach as Franklin. No one expected Franklin. I just expected to beat Vandy and/or UL this year and make a damn bowl game. 6-6 was not to much to ask for.
 

NoDef

All-American
Sep 1, 2001
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Well we have to understand though, in this comparison what was inherited by both coaches:

Franklin at Vandy inherited an NFL WR (Matthews) and others who could get open and catch the ball, Stoops had to create whole new personnel to play WR.

Next we also have to understand that Franklin inherited Jordan Rodgers at QB who spent 2 years in the NFL and now has found a home in the CFL. The last QB that UK had that good was Andre Woodson.... The QB that Mark Stoops inherited (Patrick Towles) has NFL talent, but not NFL accuracy nor read defenses at that level.

Also understand that Franklin inherited Zack Stacy at RB who is still in the NFL, Mark Stoops inherited Raymon Sanders, a hurt Josh Clemons, and Dyshawn Mobley. Mobley and Sanders a high IQ, but neither are close as good as Zack Stacy.

Franklin also had some OLinemen that spent short years in the NFL before being cut. UK hasn't had that under Stoops except for maybe Darrian Miller.

So that's just offense alone.....

Let alone Franklin had some DB's sniff the NFL and I believe 1 is still there.

So if you are going to do a comparison then you have to cite that Franklin had UNDERATED talent that is going on to do some stuff at an even higher level. Stoops didn't inherit as many guys like that. People really have to understand that the stats show that UK Football talent was at an all time low of all Power conference when Stoops took over. I think that's the single fact that people don't want to accept, because they say that you are blaming this on Joker. But fact is fact....
I've never been a fan of discrediting a coach that did a good job at one place to try and defend a coach at another. Anyone that wins 9 games at Vandy did a heck of a job. Franklin is a great motivator and got a lot of good results at a school that is not signing four and five star guys. Stoops teams tanking at the end of the last two seasons has nothing to do with Franklins success at Vandy.
 

BigBlueCatNation

All-Conference
Jan 31, 2006
77,483
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The thing our fans need to realize is that Kentucky doesn't HAVE TO be a stepping stone job. We are because of the decades of mismanagement in the football program. If and when Kentucky finally decides to take football seriously, they'll be able to be as much of a destination job outside of the high end jobs out there. I believe it seems like they are now, but we'll see
 
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UKani

Junior
Dec 5, 2003
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I've never been a fan of discrediting a coach that did a good job at one place to try and defend a coach at another. Anyone that wins 9 games at Vandy did a heck of a job. Franklin is a great motivator and got a lot of good results at a school that is not signing four and five star guys. Stoops teams tanking at the end of the last two seasons has nothing to do with Franklins success at Vandy.

Dude I didn't start the thread...lol..

I only responded with illustrating that James Franklin had better underrated talent that Stoops. That's all my post was about. I didn't bash or discredit James Franklin. I just gave facts. Why is facts not accepted on this board when they don't support the agenda? I'm seriously confused by this. Aren't we supposed to have an objective opinion? We'll I interject my objective opinion with facts, why is that such a bad thing?
 

STUCKNBIG10

All-Conference
Aug 30, 2006
7,302
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I've heard a lot of folks cite Franklin's immediate success as reason it's inexcusable for Stoops not to follow suit. I think the following can be applied to several other immediate success stories and not just Franklin/Vandy.

Don't know if it's been talked about before, but what are the chances that the discrepancy between Franklin and Stoops is because of different motives?

Franklin took over and had immediate success and improvement from first to second season. He then bolted after the third season- leaving Vandy with a plethora of schollys graduating. His stock was so high, I honestly think OSU, Bama, or any other big boy would've come after him. Strategically, he held the cards for whatever position he wanted at any potential school in the country, maybe even a shot at an NFL stint. Franklin was born in Penn so it makes sense he'd want to get that position and if he had enough success at an SEC doormat, he could sway the AD/Pres at PSU to hire him over Paterno. At least vying for the reigns. If not immediately at Penn, then at some other larger institute.

I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy. Merely that there seemed to be so many cards that fell in place... I never really felt Franklin was going to stay at Vandy. Never. I can't validate this, but it seemed like he schemed around weaknesses instead of addressing them. As soon as Franklin left, Vandy crashed hard. We have yet to see if their new coach can right the ship, but it's definitely been difficult for them. There are so many gaps and depth issues on Vandy's roster that any coach, even Franklin, would have trouble figuring out the mess.

Stoops on the other hand is recruiting to fill needs and depth. We don't seem to be scheming around our weaknesses but rather trying to attack them head-on... Even if it doesn't work in the short term. I feel like Stoops is trying to develop a base from which to build a long-term contender versus a stepping stone for his career. Perhaps this is why we aren't seeing the near immediate results that Vandy enjoyed in Franklin's short stint.

Building a foundation for a house doesn't end when you dig the hole for it. Yeah, it's impressive that you dug halfway to China, but what good does it do without being filled with concrete? Build a house on a hole and the house will fall. I feel like Peveto when I make these comparisons. Lol.

Now, there was definitely a dichotomy or other issue(s) in the locker room this season. That definitely affected some of our performance. Overall, I think we can get it back on track with how we're recruiting and replacing experience with talent. Yeah, we're probably not going to see 9 wins next season, but I'd rather have a good base to work with so that even if Stoops does bolt or get fired, we have something for the next coach to work with.

I trust Stoops and am just offering an opinion. Could be totally out in left field. Anyway, that's my two cents. Your thoughts?

We should be so unlucky as to have a coach who just "schemes around their weaknesses". Jesus. It's Stoops' job to scheme around weakness while "attacking our problems head-on" during recruiting season. no one will ever convince me that Franklin didn't do an amazing job at Vandy. Winning 9 games there is unheard of. Instead, we have a coach who has no signature win on his resume (unless you count a home field win over a 7-6 south carolina game in 2014).
 

Big John Stud

All-American
Jan 14, 2003
23,281
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Did James Franklin inherit a Bud Dupree? You can cherry pick guys all you want but Franklin did an amazing job a Vandy.
 

Sevecat

All-Conference
Jul 18, 2003
684
1,196
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Dude I didn't start the thread...lol..

I only responded with illustrating that James Franklin had better underrated talent that Stoops. That's all my post was about. I didn't bash or discredit James Franklin. I just gave facts. Why is facts not accepted on this board when they don't support the agenda? I'm seriously confused by this. Aren't we supposed to have an objective opinion? We'll I interject my objective opinion with facts, why is that such a bad thing?
I think you can make a case that Franklin developed a lot of that talent, even if they were left to him.
 

Grumpyolddawg

Heisman
Jun 11, 2001
28,354
37,077
113
I've heard a lot of folks cite Franklin's immediate success as reason it's inexcusable for Stoops not to follow suit. I think the following can be applied to several other immediate success stories and not just Franklin/Vandy.

Don't know if it's been talked about before, but what are the chances that the discrepancy between Franklin and Stoops is because of different motives?

Franklin took over and had immediate success and improvement from first to second season. He then bolted after the third season- leaving Vandy with a plethora of schollys graduating. His stock was so high, I honestly think OSU, Bama, or any other big boy would've come after him. Strategically, he held the cards for whatever position he wanted at any potential school in the country, maybe even a shot at an NFL stint. Franklin was born in Penn so it makes sense he'd want to get that position and if he had enough success at an SEC doormat, he could sway the AD/Pres at PSU to hire him over Paterno. At least vying for the reigns. If not immediately at Penn, then at some other larger institute.

I'm not saying that there's a conspiracy. Merely that there seemed to be so many cards that fell in place... I never really felt Franklin was going to stay at Vandy. Never. I can't validate this, but it seemed like he schemed around weaknesses instead of addressing them. As soon as Franklin left, Vandy crashed hard. We have yet to see if their new coach can right the ship, but it's definitely been difficult for them. There are so many gaps and depth issues on Vandy's roster that any coach, even Franklin, would have trouble figuring out the mess.

Stoops on the other hand is recruiting to fill needs and depth. We don't seem to be scheming around our weaknesses but rather trying to attack them head-on... Even if it doesn't work in the short term. I feel like Stoops is trying to develop a base from which to build a long-term contender versus a stepping stone for his career. Perhaps this is why we aren't seeing the near immediate results that Vandy enjoyed in Franklin's short stint.

Building a foundation for a house doesn't end when you dig the hole for it. Yeah, it's impressive that you dug halfway to China, but what good does it do without being filled with concrete? Build a house on a hole and the house will fall. I feel like Peveto when I make these comparisons. Lol.

Now, there was definitely a dichotomy or other issue(s) in the locker room this season. That definitely affected some of our performance. Overall, I think we can get it back on track with how we're recruiting and replacing experience with talent. Yeah, we're probably not going to see 9 wins next season, but I'd rather have a good base to work with so that even if Stoops does bolt or get fired, we have something for the next coach to work with.

I trust Stoops and am just offering an opinion. Could be totally out in left field. Anyway, that's my two cents. Your thoughts?

You make some valid points, but are missing some things too. Bob Johnson was a very good coach, he won national titles at the FCS level, Vandy was a very sound team in fundamentals and techniques. A good football coach schemes around his weaknesses and to his strengths like Franklin did at Vandy. On the other hand Joker didn't do a good job of teaching and UK's players were behind in that area.


But the biggest reason for Vandy's lack of depth and Talent at certian positions is when Franklin left for PSU, he took most of Vandy's class he had recruited with him. Vandy has a tough time getting talent to come there, when he did that it devastated that class, they had to fill it with guys directional schools wouldn't take.
 
Oct 12, 2013
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Well we have to understand though, in this comparison what was inherited by both coaches:

Franklin at Vandy inherited an NFL WR (Matthews) and others who could get open and catch the ball, Stoops had to create whole new personnel to play WR.

Next we also have to understand that Franklin inherited Jordan Rodgers at QB who spent 2 years in the NFL and now has found a home in the CFL. The last QB that UK had that good was Andre Woodson.... The QB that Mark Stoops inherited (Patrick Towles) has NFL talent, but not NFL accuracy nor read defenses at that level.

Also understand that Franklin inherited Zack Stacy at RB who is still in the NFL, Mark Stoops inherited Raymon Sanders, a hurt Josh Clemons, and Dyshawn Mobley. Mobley and Sanders a high IQ, but neither are close as good as Zack Stacy.

Franklin also had some OLinemen that spent short years in the NFL before being cut. UK hasn't had that under Stoops except for maybe Darrian Miller.

So that's just offense alone.....

Let alone Franklin had some DB's sniff the NFL and I believe 1 is still there.

So if you are going to do a comparison then you have to cite that Franklin had UNDERATED talent that is going on to do some stuff at an even higher level. Stoops didn't inherit as many guys like that. People really have to understand that the stats show that UK Football talent was at an all time low of all Power conference when Stoops took over. I think that's the single fact that people don't want to accept, because they say that you are blaming this on Joker. But fact is fact....

Have you ever stopped to think that maybe Franklin and his staff helped develop that talent that they inherited? I didn't think so. It's a lot easier to blame Joker. Funny thing is, you will be blaming Stoops when the next guy struggles out of the gate.
 

JPFisher

Heisman
Jul 24, 2013
6,107
10,804
113
I'm not entirely sure where any of you got it in your heads that I (or anyone who has replied to this thread) don't think Franklin did a good job. I just think he used Vandy as a springboard. The dude took a doormat (arguably a worse one than UK) and had two, nine-win seasons in the SEC.

I figured I'd give a different view for this issue since it seems to keep popping up. Gives others something to mull over. Glad to see it's being so hotly contested.
 

Grumpyolddawg

Heisman
Jun 11, 2001
28,354
37,077
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I'm not entirely sure where any of you got it in your heads that I (or anyone who has replied to this thread) don't think Franklin did a good job. I just think he used Vandy as a springboard. The dude took a doormat (arguably a worse one than UK) and had two, nine-win seasons in the SEC.

I figured I'd give a different view for this issue since it seems to keep popping up. Gives others something to mull over. Glad to see it's being so hotly contested.

I wasn't thinking you were trying to say he didn't. But part of the reason Mason is having a tough time is Franklin taking Vandy''s commits with him to PSU from the 14 class I guess it was. He took all their top kids, pretty sleazy move on his part, I guess he was selling Franklin to them and not Vandy. I understand losing recruits is part of a coaching change, but openly recruiting them away is pretty low, at least I think it is.
 

WildCard

All-American
May 29, 2001
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I hate to make arguments based on recruiting rankings (makes me sound like jauk [laughing]) but...

2007: #67
2008: #91
2009: #71
2010: #61

Those were the recruiting classes Franklin took over when he arrived in 2011. His "transitional" 2011 class was ranked #71 and he won 6 games and went to a bowl (lost). His 2012 class was ranked #29. Those FR added to the previous roster went 9-4, beating NC State in the Music City bowl. His 2013 class was ranked #19 and beat Houston in the Compass bowl and again finished 9-4. Defections to PSU blew up the transitional 2014 class (Mason's 1st year) but it was still ranked #49.

This tells me two things...

1. Franklin did an incredible job with what he took over
2. He left Mason some fairly decent talent

IMO, Franklin's short run at Vandy was one of the most remarkable coaching jobs we have seen lately. But just because he did it doesn't mean everybody can do it.

Peace
 
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Cats_2010

Heisman
Jan 8, 2010
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I certainly don't think its fair to point at other coaches and what they elsewhere and expect the same to be done here. I do get tired, however, of the excuse making crowd about our lack of depth when that is but one component that has made us a bad football team. Having better talent and depth is their immediate answer and what will make Stoops look like a better football coach and nothing we have seen from Stoops yet validates that. Maybe it will in time, but so far in three years it hasn't and presumably next year not looking so hot either. We cant be young and inexperienced and lack depth every single year. When does accountability start? For some I guess no judgment for 5 years or more but to most this year was somewhat of a measuring stick to see what we had and the results were not good.

The criticism Stoops has been getting from most on this board is deserved. Fire him now, no, but next year his football team better show improvement because excuses will only fly so long.
 

UKani

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Dec 5, 2003
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Its possible that Franklin did develop that talent. I'm not taking anything away from the man. All I'm saying is that he had MORE good underrated talent. Obviously Stoops did as well with Bud Dupree, Avery Williamson, and Josh Forrest. But I'm saying Franklin had more of it. Franklin did a good job of developing those guys, but I don't think Stoops has a problem developing either, except for QB where I think they do.

As for the recruiting ranks go.... Go figure that people think UK's lowest ranked class has been his best thus far. It could be possible to be the same with Vandy. Franklin however didn't develop Matthews or Zack Stacy they were already good. However he may have developed the others.

The thing about developing talent is that you can't develop someone who doesn't have the ability to develop first off. So they have to at least have the ability. Did you guys realize that the guys the Stoops asked to leave didnt do anything at there lesser schools? The only person whoever did anything was Dyshawn Mobely. And while Josh Clemons certainly has the ability, his injuries took that away from him. That ain't nobodies fault. But if these guys can't develop and produce at lesser schools how do you expect them to do that in the SEC?
 
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NoDef

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Dude I didn't start the thread...lol..

I only responded with illustrating that James Franklin had better underrated talent that Stoops. That's all my post was about. I didn't bash or discredit James Franklin. I just gave facts. Why is facts not accepted on this board when they don't support the agenda? I'm seriously confused by this. Aren't we supposed to have an objective opinion? We'll I interject my objective opinion with facts, why is that such a bad thing?

No disrespect. This is not the first post on Franklin and it somehow always leads to Vandy somehow miraculously ending up with Bama type talent during those years. I wish we could sneak in a nine win season and have a coach that has beaten UT, Georgia and Florida. Part of getting paid millions of dollars a year is the expectation of the development of players. If you are going to win in the SEC at Kentucky or Vandy you better be able to do that.

I've seen lengthy paragraphs on here on how Franklin lucked his way into success at Vandy. If just getting lucky can win you back to back 9 win seasons then Kentucky is long overdue for a little bit of it.

The knock on Dupree going into the draft was scouts questioning how Dupree had so much talent but disappeared for a high number of snaps at Kentucky. I don't know how much that says about development on that end. Lots of God given talent but not dominating the game as much as his skills should of allowed him to.
 
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Oct 12, 2013
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Its possible that Franklin did develop that talent. I'm not taking anything away from the man. All I'm saying is that he had MORE good underrated talent. Obviously Stoops did as well with Bud Dupree, Avery Williamson, and Josh Forrest. But I'm saying Franklin had more of it. Franklin did a good job of developing those guys, but I don't think Stoops has a problem developing either, except for QB where I think they do.

As for the recruiting ranks go.... Go figure that people think UK's lowest ranked class has been his best thus far. It could be possible to be the same with Vandy. Franklin however didn't develop Matthews or Zack Stacy they were already good. However he may have developed the others.

The thing about developing talent is that you can't develop someone who doesn't have the ability to develop first off. So they have to at least have the ability. Did you guys realize that the guys the Stoops asked to leave didnt do anything at there lesser schools? The only person whoever did anything was Dyshawn Mobely. And while Josh Clemons certainly has the ability, his injuries took that away from him. That ain't nobodies fault. But if these guys can't develop and produce at lesser schools how do you expect them to do that in the SEC?

Where is the ignore function. This guy is nothing more than an apologist who can't see the forest for the trees.
 

JPFisher

Heisman
Jul 24, 2013
6,107
10,804
113
[cheers]
Where is the ignore function. This guy is nothing more than an apologist who can't see the forest for the trees.

UKAni is one of the more respected posters on this board. If you don't like what he says, the answer is to simply close your laptop, tablet, or phone, and occupy your time with something else (or just ignore other people's opinions).

Ani is bringing up valid points and has unfortunately incurred an unwarranted amount of flak for it. We should all strive to be like the happy faces clanking beers up top.