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Surfside Condo Collapse

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Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
Does anyone else feel sorry for the condo board there in Florida? I have dealt with condos for years, and two family members are currently on condo boards, so it is a bit personal to me. What else were they supposed to do? NO ONE in a condo wants to pay a big assessment, or at least none of the associations I ever dealt with. And ultimately, they did assess $15M to the owners, which no doubt went over about like crapping in the punch bowl. And from what I have read so far, have yet to see any professional who expressed the opinion that the building was in imminent danger of collapsing. Even the $15M did not seem to me to be primarily aimed at shoring up the building, was more for the pool and parking garage and roof. The last letter sent out by the board president referenced the years of discussion and wrangling over the repairs.

Not against litigation when it is warranted, but damn, there are some things in life that are just totally unforeseeable by the ordinary reasonable person. Several experts have opined since the disaster that the collapse will likely be due to a combination of several factors, and not just one thing. In short, I just don't see how the board (full of volunteers and amateurs) can be held liable for being negligent here (and I recognize they have insurance, and 99% certain no board member can or will be held personally liable).
 
80 Proof

80 Proof

Heisman
Jan 3, 2003
64,602
51,235
113
I have a good friend that lives in the Surfside East building. Apparently the South Building was known to be in worse condition than the others due to deferred maintenance. Certainly an interesting situation, I'm sure there will be a lot to learn from this sad string of events.
 
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E

etowncatfan

All-Conference
Jan 3, 2003
15,480
4,884
113
We bought our first Beach Condo March 2020. There is so many things I have learned since our purchase that I had no idea about. We have 108 owners in 2 buildings. Some with very strong opinions on how to run things. Compromise is a must to avoid conflicts. Daily Maintenance is mandatory when living on the ocean. Some of the TV commentators have no idea on how the Condo Boards have to operate by Florida Law.
 
E

etowncatfan

All-Conference
Jan 3, 2003
15,480
4,884
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From the pre collapse pictures I have seen I would say that every owner knew how bad the conditions were. You couldn’t miss rebar sticking up from the concrete. These conditions didn’t happen over night. This condo had been neglected for a long time. The costs of the repairs that were needed were going to cost each owner a lot of money. I think they gambled and lost.
 
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C

catlanta33

Heisman
Aug 27, 2013
78,926
19,571
0
HOA and condo associations are probably more corrupt than the US government.

I won't even take their calls anymore for security. Always one or two on the board that have no business making a shopping list let alone understand and manage a large scale project. They have a fiefdom and treat them as such.

I feel horrible for the residents that trusted their association to do the right thing and not be greedy.
 
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WildcatFan1982

WildcatFan1982

Heisman
Dec 4, 2011
21,204
17,490
81
my dad was the head of his neighborhoods HOA last year. He got so mad at a meeting that he got up and said "If you don't like it, do it yourself" and walked out.

And he NEVER does things like that. My mom was in shock.
 
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U

UKRob 73

Heisman
Jan 25, 2007
14,967
20,954
0
Was on the City Council in my city. After the election had to attend a "newly elected officials" meeting by the state. In that meeting we were advised how we could be sued, how our personal cellphone could be accessed at any time through open records request etc.
I also remember in college several fraternity presidents personally sued over some hazing situations.
As thankless as these jobs are, they also bring a TON of liability.
 
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MdWIldcat55

MdWIldcat55

Heisman
Dec 9, 2007
20,890
82,153
113
Tskware said:
Does anyone else feel sorry for the condo board there in Florida? I have dealt with condos for years, and two family members are currently on condo boards, so it is a bit personal to me. What else were they supposed to do? NO ONE in a condo wants to pay a big assessment, or at least none of the associations I ever dealt with. And ultimately, they did assess $15M to the owners, which no doubt went over about like crapping in the punch bowl. And from what I have read so far, have yet to see any professional who expressed the opinion that the building was in imminent danger of collapsing. Even the $15M did not seem to me to be primarily aimed at shoring up the building, was more for the pool and parking garage and roof. The last letter sent out by the board president referenced the years of discussion and wrangling over the repairs.

Not against litigation when it is warranted, but damn, there are some things in life that are just totally unforeseeable by the ordinary reasonable person. Several experts have opined since the disaster that the collapse will likely be due to a combination of several factors, and not just one thing. In short, I just don't see how the board (full of volunteers and amateurs) can be held liable for being negligent here (and I recognize they have insurance, and 99% certain no board member can or will be held personally liable).
Click to expand...
I guess I have a hierarchy of sympathy:
1. People smashed into human pancakes who were doing nothing more than living in an expensive oceanfront property they bought, many after a lifetime of hard work to afford it.

2. Honestly, there isn't really a number 2. Lots of people, deserving and undeserving, will be financially ruined. If there was blatant, inexcusable and criminal neglect, some people may be prosecuted. Some will have enough sense of responsibility to carry guilt, if they deserve to feel guilty. Others will blur the edges of their consciences by saying, 'There wasn't a damn thing I could do. The neglect accumulated over 40 years and by my day any effective fix was politically impossible.' But all that pales compared to Category 1.
 
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T

Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
WayneDougan said:
Personal opinion here, but if I don't own the whole building I'm not buying any part of it. With condos, it always feels like you are at the mercy of others.
Click to expand...

From my professional experience with dealing with them, pretty much agree. Would rather rent for a month or two at a time, or share a single family home or townhouse with a partner or three, there is always a lot of fighting going on among the owners in a condo association.
 
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E

etowncatfan

All-Conference
Jan 3, 2003
15,480
4,884
113
Tskware said:
From my professional experience with dealing with them, pretty much agree. Would rather rent for a month or two at a time, or share a single family home or townhouse with a partner or three, there is always a lot of fighting going on among the owners in a condo association.
Click to expand...
throwing rent money away so others can own the condo while you pay their expenses!
 
Deeeefense

Deeeefense

Heisman
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,757
49,903
113
I won't matter what the association did or didn't do, they will still get sued and will have to provide a defense. Unfair but that's the way things work.

I'm interested in seeing how many high rise condos all of a sudden hit the market now over-reacting out of fear of another collapse. Many probably at bargain prices.

We have a Florida condo but thankfully it's a 1 story ground floor villa structure
 
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B

bigblueinsanity_rivals250340

Heisman
Apr 13, 2002
44,001
97,143
0
etowncatfan said:
Some of the TV commentators have no idea on how the Condo Boards have to operate by Florida Law.
Click to expand...

Florida condo law is definitely a different animal. It's such a huge industry and way of life there, it's a much more voluminous and developed case law than most any other state.

The minutes here will be the key. After the report, the results should've been announced and the assessment discussed. An assessment this large would basically bankrupt the entire community. You can insure against assessment, but no one had that much insurance.

The fallback recommendation should've been to sell the building or evacuate, demo, sell the lot. They could split the money up by fmv or square feet.

If all that was communicated, I don't see liability. If it wasn't...then there's nowhere near enough money to go around anyway.

Sad any way you cut it
 
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JDHoss

JDHoss

Heisman
Jan 1, 2003
16,426
39,896
113
Deeeefense said:
I won't matter what the association did or didn't do, they will still get sued and will have to provide a defense. Unfair but that's the way things work.

I'm interested in seeing how many high rise condos all of a sudden hit the market now over-reacting out of fear of another collapse. Many probably at bargain prices.

We have a Florida condo but thankfully it's a 1 story ground floor villa structure
Click to expand...
That's what ours is too. We looked at a high rise in Melbourne and some in the West Palm Beach area, but it seemed a little too much like living in a hotel. We like not having anyone above us and the area seems like more of an actual neighborhood than a high rise condo would.
 
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T

Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
etowncatfan said:
throwing rent money away so others can own the condo while you pay their expenses!
Click to expand...

That is a personal preference, I would rather own a home or a townhouse, instead of a unit in a ten story high rise, if I want to visit my kids (wherever they land), I may rent a condo on VRBO for a month or so for convenience. Just not interested in long term condo ownership.

But in a lot of areas, there is no way to escape an HOA, even with a single family residence.

I guess we all remember the guy in Louisville who got shot to death at an HOA meeting a few years ago by the neighborhood crackpot. Friend of mine had just gotten off the board when that happened.
 
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R

rqa

All-Conference
Sep 10, 2002
3,011
1,668
0
jameslee32 said:
Why did people keep living there after the engineering reports in 2018?
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Why do we drive over some 220,000 bridges that have been found to have structural issues?

My guess is that if known, a shockingly high percentage of high rise buildings have similar findings.

What do you do if you’re a condo owner and find yourself in a similar position? Do you have the means to just up and leave? Can you sell??? If so are you just trading your life for someone else?

It’s truly a sad situation but I fear it won’t be the last event of its kind. We have thousands upon thousands of structures in need of repair and can keeps getting kicked down the road.
 
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R

rqa

All-Conference
Sep 10, 2002
3,011
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Deeeefense said:
I won't matter what the association did or didn't do, they will still get sued and will have to provide a defense. Unfair but that's the way things work.

I'm interested in seeing how many high rise condos all of a sudden hit the market now over-reacting out of fear of another collapse. Many probably at bargain prices.

We have a Florida condo but thankfully it's a 1 story ground floor villa structure
Click to expand...
How many on the condo board are still alive?
 
Deeeefense

Deeeefense

Heisman
Staff member
Aug 22, 2001
43,757
49,903
113
JDHoss said:
That's what ours is too. We looked at a high rise in Melbourne and some in the West Palm Beach area, but it seemed a little too much like living in a hotel. We like not having anyone above us and the area seems like more of an actual neighborhood than a high rise condo would.
Click to expand...
Port St. Luci is booming right now with active adult communities. Houses in the $300 -$400K range with full amenities that operate like a condo complex. I'm thinking about looking more into those. The one I have now is on the West Coast - Punta Gorda which is a great community but I would not want to own a house there on a season basis.
 
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V

vhcat70

Heisman
Feb 5, 2003
57,418
38,482
0
Tskware said:
Does anyone else feel sorry for the condo board there in Florida? I have dealt with condos for years, and two family members are currently on condo boards, so it is a bit personal to me. What else were they supposed to do? NO ONE in a condo wants to pay a big assessment, or at least none of the associations I ever dealt with. And ultimately, they did assess $15M to the owners, which no doubt went over about like crapping in the punch bowl. And from what I have read so far, have yet to see any professional who expressed the opinion that the building was in imminent danger of collapsing. Even the $15M did not seem to me to be primarily aimed at shoring up the building, was more for the pool and parking garage and roof. The last letter sent out by the board president referenced the years of discussion and wrangling over the repairs.

Not against litigation when it is warranted, but damn, there are some things in life that are just totally unforeseeable by the ordinary reasonable person. Several experts have opined since the disaster that the collapse will likely be due to a combination of several factors, and not just one thing. In short, I just don't see how the board (full of volunteers and amateurs) can be held liable for being negligent here (and I recognize they have insurance, and 99% certain no board member can or will be held personally liable).
Click to expand...
Do away with lawyers & life would be fine.
 
JDHoss

JDHoss

Heisman
Jan 1, 2003
16,426
39,896
113
Deeeefense said:
Port St. Luci is booming right now with active adult communities. Houses in the $300 -$400K range with full amenities that operate like a condo complex. I'm thinking about looking more into those. The one I have now is on the West Coast - Punta Gorda which is a great community but I would not want to own a house there on a season basis.
Click to expand...

We really liked Punta Gorda as a community and seriously considered it, but wanted to be closer to the beach. We're 2.5 miles off the ocean as the crow flies in The Fort, and only 6 miles by the time you catch the causeway over. We absolutely love living on the Treasure Coast.
 
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T

Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
rqarnold said:
My guess is that if known, a shockingly high percentage of high rise buildings have similar findings.
Click to expand...

That is my guess as well, these reports we have all been reading could be written about all kinds of high rise condos all over Florida, how was the board to know that the building was about to collapse? No one saw that coming, even the engineers.
 
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Rebelfreedomeagle

Rebelfreedomeagle

All-Conference
Feb 24, 2017
2,529
4,627
113
I keep thinking about the Lexington parking garage level that collapsed in February. A week after it happened, people started commenting about seeing damage before, etc. It was a way, way different outcome but shows that it's possible here too.
 
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80 Proof

80 Proof

Heisman
Jan 3, 2003
64,602
51,235
113
Rebelfreedomeagle said:
I keep thinking about the Lexington parking garage level that collapsed in February. A week after it happened, people started commenting about seeing damage before, etc. It was a way, way different outcome but shows that it's possible here too.
Click to expand...
Salt is a ***** on metal.
 
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T

Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
80 Proof said:
T

That is the support bracket from the garage that collapsed in February. They are tearing the whole thing down right now.
Click to expand...
Our garage needs work as well, but they did spend a bunch of money on it a few years ago shoring up the walls and support beams.
 
chroix

chroix

Heisman
Jul 22, 2013
10,022
25,207
113
Miami is a special place. Things are either extremely nice or pretty shoddy from my experience.
 
80 Proof

80 Proof

Heisman
Jan 3, 2003
64,602
51,235
113
Tskware said:
Our garage needs work as well, but they did spend a bunch of money on it a few years ago shoring up the walls and support beams.
Click to expand...
After I spent a few years on the Parking Authority board here in town, I gained a new appreciation for the city garages. They actually inspect them regularly and repair/maintain them as needed.
 
D

Dore95

All-Conference
Mar 2, 2008
2,435
1,906
0
That area of Miami Beach is filled with condos built in the 70s and 80s. Frankly, it's a little bit eerie driving up and down Collins between what would be called "mid Beach" and Bal Harbour because there are very few hotels or businesses (except for Fontainebleu and a few others at south end of the stretch I'm talking about). But lots of cookie cutter condos. So, the point is, there are a lot of worried condo owners in Miami Beach in Surfside and surrounding areas.
 
T

Tskware

Heisman
Jan 26, 2003
24,934
21,293
113
80 Proof said:
After I spent a few years on the Parking Authority board here in town, I gained a new appreciation for the city garages. They actually inspect them regularly and repair/maintain them as needed.
Click to expand...

As a direct result of the poor woman who was 8 months pregnant who got killed 20 years or so ago when a piece of a parking garage was knocked loose by a car falling directly on her, happened a block from my office, just an unbelievably unlucky tragedy.
 
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