The ACC Does Not Deserve Two #1 Seeds

[John Henry]

Listening to a show this morning, in ACC country, that said Duke is a lock for #1 no matter what happens in their tournament and Virginia should also get a #1 based on their body of work for the season and as winner of the regular season ACC. Further reasoning was it is the ACC, the superior conference and in most seasons they should have two #1 seeds. Sort of like a birthright.

I must disagree. If Virginia wins the ACC tournament I can see giving them a number one but would drop Duke to a #2 seed. If Duke wins the ACC tournament I would give them the #1 seed and drop Virginia to #2. If neither wins, I would give it to Duke and drop Virginia to #2 seed.

But under no circumstance would they get two teams. They are not heads and shoulders above everyone else ranked in the Top 10 and both are vulnerable.

My Four:
Kentucky
Duke or Virginia TBD
Wisconsin
Arizona

***The above subject to change as the week unfolds.

 

[Seth C]

The only way they both deserve a #1 seed is if they both make the tournament championship game and then Duke wins it. If you don't win your regular season OR your tournament there are four better teams than you out there. Give them the seed.

 

[akaukswoosh]

Sort of like a birthright.

That's what it comes down to.

 

[bluedog79]

the ACC did not make it to the sweet 16 in last year's tournament. why in the hell would people think they would get to number 1 seeds?if you take away Louisville and Notre Dame then the ACC has the same amount of teams in the tournament as last year. their conference sucks except for the top 5 teams and two of those are Big East teams

 

[dotcomok]

boils down to this...second best ACC team v. champion of B1G or PAC12... which conference / team do you think is better?

 

[docholiday51]

Originally posted by Seth C:
The only way they both deserve a #1 seed is if they both make the tournament championship game and then Duke wins it. If you don't win your regular season OR your tournament there are four better teams than you out there. Give them the seed.

It seem very hard to argue with this take,it is not like there aren't several very good teams out there to fill the #1 slots.
This is my take on some of the top teams

Arizona-They are probably a little better than they were last year,Stanley Johnson is a big addition for them + the rest of their is a year older

Duke - Their first 5 are better than last year,but they weren't good enough to get past the first round last season,so being a little better isn't good enough to make the FF this year,depth and a team with a good front court will be their undoing

Wisconsin - They are the same team they were last year just a year older.They are solid and won't beat themselves.An athletic team with good guards will give them problems.

UVA - They are not as good as they were last season,partly(maybe mostly)due to injury.They will have a target on their back come NCAAT time,they won't wear it well.

Nova - A better team than they were last year,a bit like Iowa St of last year they will be a tougher out than they were last season.There are several teams that don't want anything to do with Nova,they just don't know it ....yet

UK - The Cats got all the way to the Championship game last year,they are a much better team this year,that can't be a good thing for the rest of the field.They can play 1/2 court,they are better in up tempo and they contest shots better than anyone else in college basketball.They may not win it all but something bad or out of the ordinary will have to happen to keep them from cutting down the nets.

 

[Waterview Catfan]

dotcomok- while what we think makes for fun debates, it matters none. Now if the selection crew bases seedings upon who they think is better verses who has earned their seed, then you have a problem, as we have often seen before.

 

[brianpoe]

I can see how they both get #1 as of today just looking at the Top 25 work each has done:


Virginia has 2 losses to Duke and Louisville (Zero bad losses)

Arizona has 3 losses to UNLV, Oregon State and Arizona State
Wisconsin has 3 losses to Duke, Maryland, and Rutgers

Advantage UVA



Duke has wins over @ #6 Wisconsin, @ Louisville, UNC, @ UNC, @ Virginia (2 bad losses)

Wisconsin has wins over @ #23 OSU and @ #25 Iowa (1 bad loss)
Arizona has wins over #7 Gonzaga and @ #13 Utah (3 bad losses)

Advantage Duke


I don't think it's unfathomable if each gets a top seed as of today.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

The fact is UVA has two losses to two very good teams.

Wisconsin lost to Rutgers and Arizona has three losses that were way worse than UVA's losses.

Duke has won on the road against very good competition. I don't think this can be understated.

Both deserve 1 seeds.

The fact they come from the same conference shouldn't matter and doesn't matter.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

The people in this thread sound like the SEC haters in football and saying the SEC SHOULD NEVER get 2 in the playoff top 4.

I keep seeing people pump up an Arizona team that has losses to 3 NIT teams (at best) over Duke or UVA? That is laughable.

That said, if UVA loses this week I think Wisconsin may jump them...and then instead of UVA staying in the East as a 2 for Wisconsin they will no doubt be sent to the Midwest with UK as our 2 seed, with a healthy Anderson by the time we play them unless they get upset beforehand.

UK is pretty much screwed no matter what due to geography as far as who our 2 seed is. It will be Duke, UVA or Wisconsin...unless all 3 are one seeds, which is what SHOULD happen. The committee would rather give one to Villanova for whatever bizarre reasoning though.

 

[The_Answer1313_rivals]

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:
The people in this thread sound like the SEC haters in football and saying the SEC SHOULD NEVER get 2 in the playoff top 4.

I keep seeing people pump up an Arizona team that has losses to 3 NIT teams (at best) over Duke or UVA? That is laughable.

That said, if UVA loses this week I think Wisconsin may jump them...and then instead of UVA staying in the East as a 2 for Wisconsin they will no doubt be sent to the Midwest with UK as our 2 seed, with a healthy Anderson by the time we play them unless they get upset beforehand.

UK is pretty much screwed no matter what due to geography as far as who our 2 seed is. It will be Duke, UVA or Wisconsin...unless all 3 are one seeds, which is what SHOULD happen. The committee would rather give one to Villanova for whatever bizarre reasoning though.

Unless the bizarre situation happens where both Arizona and Gonzaga are ahead of Wisconsin on the 2 line. Then one will go West and the other the next closest region which would be the Midwest. Although now that I think about it, they probably could put Arizona in the South if Gonzaga was ahead of them on the seed line and went West. So really only situation would be a 2 line like this:

Arizona, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, KU

 

[dotcomok]

Originally posted by Waterview Catfan:
dotcomok- while what we think makes for fun debates, it matters none. Now if the selection crew bases seedings upon who they think is better verses who has earned their seed, then you have a problem, as we have often seen before.
I agree. Not who the selection committee "thinks" should be seeded higher--rather based upon the body of work, and the strength of each conference---which of those teams should be a #1 v. #2 seed.

in my opinion - neither the B1G and certainly not the PAC12 are good enough ---but I don't think it matters much if you have a #1 or a #2 seed.... the real issue here is who wants to be in the bracket opposite UK and vice versa.

 

[Dallas-Wild]

It appears they need to change the term SEEDS to Regional placement.

I would almost guarentee pUKe will have the lower "regional placements"

 

[wcc31]

Originally posted by Seth C:
The only way they both deserve a #1 seed is if they both make the tournament championship game and then Duke wins it. If you don't win your regular season OR your tournament there are four better teams than you out there. Give them the seed.

Completely disagree.

Duke has better wins than ANYONE. They won @ Wisconsin, @ Virginia, @ Louisville and @ UNC. That's ridiculous.

Virginia's losses are to Duke and on the road at Louisville without their best player- both nail biters.

What does conference have to do with anything? The ACC happens to have 2 of the 3 best teams in college basketball this year.

 

[nyron]

I don't see why being in the same conference matters if teams are otherwise worthy of #1 seeds. After UK beat Arkansas in the classic 1995 SECT final, Pitino said "If the Committee is paying attention, they'll give Arkansas a #1 seed also." The Committee wasn't paying attention but Arkansas reached the championship final anyway.

 

[wcc31]

The mere mention of Duke turns a lot of our fans into raving lunatics. It's embarrassing.

 

[BlueBlood66_rivals34314]

The four number one seeds should go to the four best teams in the country regardless of conference or how their conference did in the tourney last year. Any other reasoning is just crazy.

If you don't think Duke and UVA are two of the four best teams in the country that is fine. But to say they shouldn't both get a one seed simply because they are in the same conference is just not smart.

 

[Dallas-Wild]

Originally posted by wcc31:

Originally posted by Seth C:
The only way they both deserve a #1 seed is if they both make the tournament championship game and then Duke wins it. If you don't win your regular season OR your tournament there are four better teams than you out there. Give them the seed.

Completely disagree.

Duke has better wins than ANYONE. They won @ Wisconsin, @ Virginia, @ Louisville and @ UNC. That's ridiculous.

Virginia's losses are to Duke and on the road at Louisville without their best player- both nail biters.

What does conference have to do with anything? The ACC happens to have 2 of the 3 best teams in college basketball this year.

Agree....It's Villanova who does NOT deserve a #1 seed over Wisconsin.

Who have they beat? And they lost to a 16-14 Seton Hall

True #1's are

UK
pUKe
UVA
Wisconsin

 

[mjj_2K]

The problem with the potential 1 seeds this year is that almost none actually played each other, which is due in part to expanded conferences, in part because of the Big East breakup, and in part is just a fluke. You have 6 teams with a real argument for a 1 seed, with only UK a lock, the others being Virginia, Villanova, Wisconsin, Duke, and Arizona. Here's what you're looking at with those 6:

UK played none of the others
Virginia only played Duke, and lost at home.
Villanova played none
Wisconsin lost at home to Duke
Arizona played none
Duke has the worst losses of any of the 6, but is the only one to actually beat any of the other 6 (and has some other impressive wins). And if they beat Virginia again in the ACC Tourney, that will make 3 wins.

All of which means that, beyond UK at #1 overall, it's not only impossible to know who they'll give the one seeds to, but also impossible to know how they'll rank them- which has a huge impact on who ends up in what region.

I suspect that if Duke wins the ACC Tourney, they might come up with something like

UK
Villanova
Duke
Wisconsin
Virginia
Arizona

then Gonzaga, and probably Kansas.

If they rate the teams like that, it solves the debate about putting Wisconsin or Virginia in UK's region, while still letting them use "geography" as the guiding principle. UK gets the 1 in the MW, Villanova gets the East, Duke the South, and Wisconsin goes west. Virginia is actually closer to Cleveland, but it's a tiny, tiny difference, so send Virginia to the East as a the 2, then Arizona to the West, then Gonzaga or Kansas to the South (based on whoever is rated higher), then whoever is left to the Midwest.

This makes the most sense (if everyone listed wins out other than Virginia), and the only questionable thing is bumping Villanova ahead of Duke and Wisconsin. However, that's not a total reach, as Villanova has only lost twice.

 

[brianpoe]

How are Duke's losses worse than Arizona's?

Miami
@ NC State
@ #11 Notre Dame

vs

@ UNLV
@ Arizona State
@ Oregon State

The home loss to the U?

 

[reignof cats]

Still a lot of important games to be played before seeding. It will all settle out. I want the best 4 teams to get #1 seeds.
As of now, here are my seeds. GBB




Cats - Lock no matter what
Whisky if they win the big 10. - lock if happens . #2 if they lose
Duke if they get to the acc champ game . They can lose to Va in the final and still get a #1 seed - Lock if happens
Va if they win the acct - Lock if happens
Ariz if they win their Tournament- Only if Va, dook , and whisky lose
Villanova moves to a #1 only if all of the above schools lose their tournaments
This post was edited on 3/9 5:37 PM by reignof cats

 

[Altro Cat]

Lunardi made a case that the only way they should both get number one seeds is if they lose to each other in the tournament and the winner wins it. He said other teams could jump one of them if either of them are upset in the ACC tournament but said the other teams had work to do to jump them in that event.

 

[wcc31]

Originally posted by brianpoe:
How are Duke's losses worse than Arizona's?

Miami
@ NC State
@ #11 Notre Dame

vs

@ UNLV
@ Arizona State
@ Oregon State

The home loss to the U?

Well, 2 and possibly all 3 of Duke's losses are to tournament teams, whereas none of Arizona's losses will be in the NCAA.

Aside from that, Duke has much better wins than Arizona. I don't understand how a true CBB fan can have trouble seeing the difference here.

 

[kyjeff1]

sawnee cat: "Listening to a show this morning, in ACC country, that said Duke is a lock for #1 no matter what happens in their tournament and Virginia should also get a #1 based on their body of work for the season and as winner of the regular season ACC. Further reasoning was it is the ACC, the superior conference and in most seasons they should have two #1 seeds. Sort of like a birthright.

I must disagree. If Virginia wins the ACC tournament I can see giving them a number one but would drop Duke to a #2 seed. If Duke wins the ACC tournament I would give them the #1 seed and drop Virginia to #2. If neither wins, I would give it to Duke and drop Virginia to #2 seed.

But under no circumstance would they get two teams. They are not heads and shoulders above everyone else ranked in the Top 10 and both are vulnerable.

My Four:
Kentucky
Duke or Virginia TBD
Wisconsin
Arizona

***The above subject to change as the week unfolds."


LOL, you're letting your hatred for the ACC cloud your judgment and you aren't going to convince anyone on here of anything different because whether you LIKE it or not UVA and duke* are easily 2 of the best 4 teams. I honestly think Wisconsin gets the last 1 seed and Villanova goes to the 2 line.
Look at their résumé's and you will see what everyone else sees. Duke has unbelievably great road wins, UVA has lost two nail biters. Now take a look at Arizona's résumé. can you honestly tell me that Arizona has a better résumé? You have a better argument with Villanova but still. who have they played and who have they beaten?
Look, I get it, you don't like the ACC and you don't like a radio guy stating that the ACC is the best conference and therefore should get 2 #1 seeds but he is partially right. The ACC deserves two #1 seeds but it's not because it's the ACC.

 

[Seth C]

Originally posted by wcc31:

Originally posted by Seth C:
The only way they both deserve a #1 seed is if they both make the tournament championship game and then Duke wins it. If you don't win your regular season OR your tournament there are four better teams than you out there. Give them the seed.

Completely disagree.

Duke has better wins than ANYONE. They won @ Wisconsin, @ Virginia, @ Louisville and @ UNC. That's ridiculous.

Virginia's losses are to Duke and on the road at Louisville without their best player- both nail biters.

What does conference have to do with anything? The ACC happens to have 2 of the 3 best teams in college basketball this year.

Cool. I'm going to keep looking at their entire body of work though, if that's alright with you. Yes, Duke has some good wins. They also have some bad losses. How many bad losses does Virginia have?

Ah yes, that's right...none.

Now many good wins does Duke have outside of conference? Just that one you say? Well that's cool, and I appreciate it, but that's one. Now, those "good" teams they beat in the ACC. How many good wins does Virginia have outside of conference? Just Maryland? That's good, I guess. How many good wins does Louisville have outside of conference? Ohio State? Ehhhh. How many good wins does North Carolina have out of conference? Ah! Also Ohio State. Seems everyone is beating Ohio State.

So Duke's great resume is based primarily on them winning against teams who didn't prove much out of conference. That's fine and all, but I want more before I anoint them. Preferably, I'd at least like to see them WIN something in this conference that is apparently so good they don't need to prove themselves outside of it. I'd also rather reward teams who have accomplished something of note, if the decision is close. In this case Wisconsin and Arizona have, and I think that should be rewarded. Should they win their tournaments as well, especially.

 

[Neue Regel]

for all the complaints about Gonzagas league look at Arizona's! Pac12 is tissue paper this year. Seth, Zona's resume can't touch Dukes and most here know it. Tell me their five best wins and compare them to Duke's. Also give me league RPI Seth

This post was edited on 3/9 9:12 PM by Neue Regel

 

[Xception]

Originally posted by wcc31:
The mere mention of Duke turns a lot of our fans into raving lunatics. It's embarrassing.

Rationality vaporizes at the very word .

 

[anon_013cn8yrfncx2]

Two of Wisconsin's 3 losses have been without a starter including one without Kaminsky

 

[new era cat]

Originally posted by reignof cats:

Still a lot of important games to be played before seeding. It will all settle out. I want the best 4 teams to get #1 seeds.
As of now, here are my seeds. GBB



Cats - Lock no matter what
Whisky if they win the big 10. - lock if happens . #2 if they lose
Duke if they get to the acc champ game . They can lose to Va in the final and still get a #1 seed - Lock if happens
Va if they win the acct - Lock if happens
Ariz if they win their Tournament- Only if Va, dook , and whisky lose
Villanova moves to a #1 only if all of the above schools lose their tournaments
This post was edited on 3/9 5:37 PM by reignof cats

Just not true. #2 seed in Midwest either way.

 

[BBCatsExile]

Virginia lost to two teams who were better than they were.

Arizona last three teams because they laid an egg. One was on the night of December 24th. One was against a conference rival. One was against Oregon State who they probably slept on.Arizona won every big game they played, versus Gonzaga, at Utah.

They get the nod for me. Virginia is a sweet 16 team, but I see them first to get bounced out of the top 6.

 

[CatDaddy4daWin]

Wisconsin has beaten 2 ranked opponents(at the time) - Iowa and OSU. Iowa of course is no longer ranked. Amazing that the Big 10 has only 2 ranked teams yet people wanna talk about how bad the SEC is.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:
Virginia lost to two teams who were better than they were.

Arizona last three teams because they laid an egg. One was on the night of December 24th. One was against a conference rival. One was against Oregon State who they probably slept on.Arizona won every big game they played, versus Gonzaga, at Utah.

They get the nod for me. Virginia is a sweet 16 team, but I see them first to get bounced out of the top 6.

So Arizona gets a one for losing to 3 dog crap teams, and beating an overrated fraud in Gonzaga that plays HS teams to pad its stats/wins and a Utah team that is sinking by the week on the seed line? LOL. The Pac 12 sucks as well btw. The Arizona love on here is hilarious.

Why would you give Arizona a 1 seed when they are going to be out west anyways as a 2?

 

[BBCatsExile]

Originally posted by UKWildcats#8:

Originally posted by BBCatsExile:
Virginia lost to two teams who were better than they were.

Arizona last three teams because they laid an egg. One was on the night of December 24th. One was against a conference rival. One was against Oregon State who they probably slept on.Arizona won every big game they played, versus Gonzaga, at Utah.

They get the nod for me. Virginia is a sweet 16 team, but I see them first to get bounced out of the top 6.

So Arizona gets a one for losing to 3 dog crap teams, and beating an overrated fraud in Gonzaga that plays HS teams to pad its stats/wins and a Utah team that is sinking by the week on the seed line? LOL. The Pac 12 sucks as well btw. The Arizona love on here is hilarious.

Why would you give Arizona a 1 seed when they are going to be out west anyways as a 2?

You nailed it. Arizona will be a #2 out west, but it's not really fair to the #1 seed that's shipped out there. Villanova won't stand a chance in that bracket.

 

[LowCountryCat]

In 1997 South Carolina beat us twice and won the SEC regular season, but we won the SEC tournament and got the #1 seed. They got the #2. And lost to Coppin State, by the way.

 

[Son_Of_Saul]

Originally posted by Dallas-Wild:

Agree....It's Villanova who does NOT deserve a #1 seed over Wisconsin.

Who have they beat? And they lost to a 16-14 Seton Hall

True #1's are

UK
pUKe
UVA
Wisconsin

These should be the #1 seeds. Wisconsin is better than Villanova.

 

[reignof cats]

Originally posted by new era cat:

Originally posted by reignof cats:

Still a lot of important games to be played before seeding. It will all settle out. I want the best 4 teams to get #1 seeds.
As of now, here are my seeds. GBB





Cats - Lock no matter what

Whisky if they win the big 10. - lock if happens . #2 if they lose

Duke if they get to the acc champ game . They can lose to Va in the final and still get a #1 seed - Lock if happens

Va if they win the acct - Lock if happens

Ariz if they win their Tournament- Only if Va, dook , and whisky lose

Villanova moves to a #1 only if all of the above schools lose their tournaments
This post was edited on 3/9 5:37 PM by reignof cats

Just not true. #2 seed in Midwest either way.

I am not a fan of the big 10; but if they win the big10t, here is why I believe they are a #1 seed.

Whisky returns most of their players off a FF run last yearWhisky lost only 1 game at full strength to dook, early in the yearFrank the Tank has got a real shot at the POY cant really make a case for someone else to be better than them. There is UK then the gap is large into a pool of soso, then the field.
However, you may be right too.

 

[TUL]

Eh, I disagree. The top of the ACC is a brutal group. And if you look at UVas record, and Duke's record, they are really pretty good.

I would hesitate to eliminate a team simply because of league affiliation. Two of the top four teams in the country CAN come from the same league.

 

[CatPhight_rivals65113]

Virginia's loss to little brother made it virtually impossible for two 1 seeds from the ACC.

Virginia wins the ACC-T they get the 1 seed and the dookies pack for the 2 seed in the south and vice-verse.

If neither win the ACC-T and Wisconsin, Villanova and Arizona roll in their tourneys, it could get interesting as there would be a legit argument for something like this when considering the geographical spin.


Midwest
1 UK
2 KU/Maryland

East
1 Villanova
2 Virginia

South
1 Wisconsin
2 Dook

West
1 Arizona
2 Gonzaga

 

[docholiday51]

Originally posted by TUL:
Eh, I disagree. The top of the ACC is a brutal group. And if you look at UVas record, and Duke's record, they are really pretty good.

I would hesitate to eliminate a team simply because of league affiliation. Two of the top four teams in the country CAN come from the same league.

I think some of you are missing the point that a few are trying to make.Either UVA or Duke is going to lose one more game,if Ariz,Nova or Wis.do not then they are in the conversation.UVA has already lost one (UL) It is not so much a same conference thing as a matter of winning a conference or winning a conference tournament.

 

[reignof cats]

Originally posted by TUL:
Eh, I disagree. The top of the ACC is a brutal group. And if you look at UVas record, and Duke's record, they are really pretty good.

I would hesitate to eliminate a team simply because of league affiliation. Two of the top four teams in the country CAN come from the same league.

Va beat NO ONE in their OOC schedule. They are a good team and had a real good shot of winning both games they lost. I don't think the committee or the country will accept two #1 seeds from the acc unless va beats duke in the final. In every conference it is hard to go undefeated. Especially for the traditional powers. In the tournaments, teams will be playing for the 2nd or 3rd time this year and know how to play each other.

I did not see you posting on this board that 2 sec football teams deserve a playoff birth. This was a real possibility if MSU won out. Ohio state would not even have gotten a shot if that happened. Big 10 would have been in a major uproar even though osu lost to Vatech. Osu was really good the last 5 games of the year. Dominated the line of scrimmage in those games.

The whole year the media has pumped up the big 12 as the best conference with the acc as being good top heavy. The acc has only 2 real legit teams duke and Va. unc cheat and ul have massive flaws. I don't think ND is a real contender either. I think the acct final is on Sat the same day the committee will pick. A VA loss will put them on the 2 line. Duke has to make the final or they could be in trouble as well. If someone outside of duke or va win, IDK what happens then. GBB