The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[Wrassler17]

As the debate rages between the optimists & the pessimists, here's a separate thread for folks to offer up opinions about the program. I tend to think about things in terms of the good (e.g., recent recruiting), the bad (e.g., recent struggles on bottom) and the ugly (e.g., zero post grad RTC athletes).

So what do folks think? What's good and what needs to change?

 

[je55m00r3]

As the debate rages between the optimists & the pessimists, here's a separate thread for folks to offer up opinions about the program. I tend to think about things in terms of the good (e.g., recent recruiting), the bad (e.g., recent struggles on bottom) and the ugly (e.g., zero post grad RTC athletes).

So what do folks think? What's good and what needs to change?

Good
1. National resurgence of OK on the kids => HS national level (props to Hardell, Roller, et al) and OSU seems to be keeping the talent (Young). Just getting OK kids won't win 35, but it will build depth.

2. They found a leader in AJ. You can tell bc once he left, the whole team seemed deflated. I don't know why it matters, but having a vocal upper weight telling everyone how cool it is to be associated with him/team made the rest wrestle better. Fix could have won the Olympics and would still be second fiddle to Ferrari in terms of team dynamics.

3 Tech focus is still outstanding. At the beginning of the year, they seemed to have a better top game, esp bar-arm ride. Even on bottom ... believe it or not. At the beginning of the year, I saw more attention paid to short sits, elevators, side rolls, etc. We were also getting away from the tripod stand up as the go to. This tells me they are thinking outside of the box and at least trying different approaches .. like everything old is new again. On the feet I saw a lot more head-outside outside-step attacks. (Still too much fantasizing about low singles, misdirection low singles, sucker drags, and waaay too many shin whizzers, opposite ankle scrambles rather than developing legit short offense).

 

[je55m00r3]

As the debate rages between the optimists & the pessimists, here's a separate thread for folks to offer up opinions about the program. I tend to think about things in terms of the good (e.g., recent recruiting), the bad (e.g., recent struggles on bottom) and the ugly (e.g., zero post grad RTC athletes).

So what do folks think? What's good and what needs to change?

Bad
1. I know it's popular now to avoid a meat grinder and I know it's easier said than done, but they need a tougher schedule . Why not more opens in November and a holiday tournament? Why Columbia? Why not hit up Scott and Pop for a tri meet? Why not get a west coast trip w/ Oregon State?

2. The team lacks depth. If Stika is the guy to fill in at 197, idk. There's no DI caliber wrestler for AJ to work out with? Who does he train with? Seems like 2 solid wrestlers per weight isn't too much to ask. I mean the 125 situation at Mizzou was emabarrasing for everyone involved.

3. Related: LeeC says they are there, but what senior level guys are around? Who is Fix working out with? I remember watching vids from practices from a decade ago and there were former AA's and national champs everywhere (2013). Coleman scott working with Oliver, esposito working with perry, obe blanc with morrison, etc (I'm sure I switching name but there's a vid on flow). . Feikert was a back up, if I remember correctly . . That's a good back up. They had national finalist transfer. They had a dude from Russia who teched our Olympian. .
Judging by his physique, I wonder if Perry still goes and with whom.

 

[je55m00r3]

As the debate rages between the optimists & the pessimists, here's a separate thread for folks to offer up opinions about the program. I tend to think about things in terms of the good (e.g., recent recruiting), the bad (e.g., recent struggles on bottom) and the ugly (e.g., zero post grad RTC athletes).

So what do folks think? What's good and what needs to change?

Ugly:

Smith embarrasses himself (or at least some of his fans) when he pitches hissy-fits on every questionable call. He stomps around the mat, yells at officials, and generally acts like the normal rules of decorum don't apply to him ... Yesterday, Esposito tried to grab him and he pulled away like a three year old running from a whoopin. Yes, he's the GOAT, but he must know that his behavior will leave an impression on even the most professional refs.

His antics -in my opinion - cost Fix his first national title, if not by directly influencing the refs then by taking Fix's attention away from strategies and tactics and focusing on a perceived technical violation.

 

[Wrassler17]

Ugly:

Smith embarrasses himself (or at least some of his fans) when he pitches hissy-fits on every questionable call. He runs on the mat, at officials ... Yesterday, Esposito tried to grab him and he pulled away like a three year old running from a whoopin. He must know that this will leave an impression on even the most professional refs.

His antics -in my opinion - cost fix his first national title, if not by directly inflencing the refs then by taking Fix's attention away from strategies and tactics and focusing on a perceived technical violation

Ugly:

Smith embarrasses himself (or at least some of his fans) when he pitches hissy-fits on every questionable call. He runs on the mat, at officials ... Yesterday, Esposito tried to grab him and he pulled away like a three year old running from a whoopin. He must know that this will leave an impression on even the most professional refs.

His antics -in my opinion - cost fix his first national title, if not by directly inflencing the refs then by taking Fix's attention away from strategies and tactics and focusing on a perceived technical violation

You made a good point about having a tougher schedule. I think we definitely need that. And I agree it would be better if John was calmer in the corner. But I don't think he influenced Daton's match - I think he wanted Daton to be more aggressive.

John spoke after Daton beat Suriano on a hands to the face call in the dual. John said "he won, but he didn't do nothing". Actually it was more of a yell, because John was so frustrated. Then in the finals they cut to John after the first period. You can actually hear him say "good job, now open up".

 

[Harleycowboy]

You made a good point about having a tougher schedule. I think we definitely need that. And I agree it would be better if John was calmer in the corner. But I don't think he influenced Daton's match - I think he wanted Daton to be more aggressive.

John spoke after Daton beat Suriano on a hands to the face call in the dual. John said "he won, but he didn't do nothing". Actually it was more of a yell, because John was so frustrated. Then in the finals they cut to John after the first period. You can actually hear him say "good job, now open up".

I don't know, we sure could have used that challenge brick at the end of the match, I think they would have had to take a closer look. I still have painful memories of that match with ride out stopped in overtime and the head gear grab.
The good as you said Wrassler is recruiting and if we get Mullins it would be our 2nd great class, along with 2 good classes. The bad is injuries are hurting our potential for too many members of these classes. The second bad is that not enough of these recruits are developing into stars so far. Maybe next year we will see this development that needs to occur?
The ugly is Penn. St. their dominance wrestling and their outmaneuvering the rest of College wrestling ( especially us). They are beatable as Iowa beat them last year but their performances in the quarters, semi's and finals is almost not human. Whatever considering the arguing factions right now our coaching and development is not cutting it. We don't need a new head coach but we need to stop being outmaneuvered by Penn. St. Coach Smith needs to be more open minded and maybe putting more energy into winning 35.

 

[Skinpig]

The facilities & the “near to NCAA violations “ that Pedo State have, that have Olympic athletes training & competing with their roster & getting compensated does not help.

 

[turfpoke]

Good- Fix continues. Hopefully he gets a title. Plott stepping up into that 15+ team point range. Surber improved a lot over the season. Gfeller wrestled with fire in his belly. It didn’t turn out the way he wanted, but maybe that brings him back even hungrier next year. I think he is done though.
Bad- bottom wrestling didn’t improve much for a few guys, either due to injury or strength. Need to spend the summer dragging around vans with AJ Sr.
Ugly- injuries and AJ’s car accident.

 

[turfpoke]

Ugly:

Smith embarrasses himself (or at least some of his fans) when he pitches hissy-fits on every questionable call. He runs on the mat, at officials ... Yesterday, Esposito tried to grab him and he pulled away like a three year old running from a whoopin. He must know that this will leave an impression on even the most professional refs.

His antics -in my opinion - cost fix his first national title, if not by directly inflencing the refs then by taking Fix's attention away from strategies and tactics and focusing on a perceived technical violation

The same match where Fix had Suriano flattened out and the ref called a ******** stalemate? Then Suriano grabbed his head gear and they didn’t call it? How in the world some of these things can be twisted around into being John’s fault are crazy. Daton lost focus because of that? It seems personal between you and John. Along with a few others on here.

 

[turfpoke]

I don't know, we sure could have used that challenge brick at the end of the match, I think they would have had to take a closer look. I still have painful memories of that match with ride out stopped in overtime and the head gear grab.
The good as you said Wrassler is recruiting and if we get Mullins it would be our 2nd great class, along with 2 good classes. The bad is injuries are hurting our potential for too many members of these classes. The second bad is that not enough of these recruits are developing into stars so far. Maybe next year we will see this development that needs to occur?
The ugly is Penn. St. their dominance wrestling and their outmaneuvering the rest of College wrestling ( especially us). They are beatable as Iowa beat them last year but their performances in the quarters, semi's and finals is almost not human. Whatever considering the arguing factions right now our coaching and development is not cutting it. We don't need a new head coach but we need to stop being outmaneuvered by Penn. St. Coach Smith needs to be more open minded and maybe putting more energy into winning 35.

I agree with all of it except the last line. John needs to put more energy into it. 6 time world champion, I bet he puts what it takes into to it. Maybe I’m wrong and he is getting complacent as he ages.
The problem I see is that for every 2 stars we get, they get Penn State gets 5. I don’t think it’s anything magical they are doing with development. Berge, Bartlett, Hilderbrant, and whoever their 165 is aren’t good. I’m sure they are developing them the same way. It’s Jimmys and Joes not Xs and Os.

 

[okcpokefan12]

I agree with all of it except the last line. John needs to put more energy into it. 6 time world champion, I bet he puts what it takes into to it. Maybe I’m wrong and he is getting complacent as he ages.
The problem I see is that for every 2 stars we get, they get Penn State gets 5. I don’t think it’s anything magical they are doing with development. Berge, Bartlett, Hilderbrant, and whoever their 165 is aren’t good. I’m sure they are developing them the same way. It’s Jimmys and Joes not Xs and Os.

Coach Smith is a legend, but Cael is running circles around him in the coaching/recruiting/developing of his wrestlers the last decade. The results speak for themselves!

Would you be cool with Coach Smith still as head coach if he doesn’t win another title in 5 years....10 years....or until he decides to retire? I hope this doesn’t happen but would like to hear some opinions from posters that don’t question a single thing about Coach and keep saying everything is fine

 

[je55m00r3]

And I agree it would be better if John was calmer in the corner. But I don't think he influenced Daton's match - I think he wanted Daton to be more aggressive.

You're probably right. My criticism was a little over the top ... but ... and you knew this was coming ... but ... I can't forget the image of Fix standing straight-up looking quizically at the ref with his hand on his headgear while Suriano is in on his ankles.

I was mediocre in college so take this accordingly, but I felt abused by the refs, my opponents, the other coaches,, the fans, the gym, the scale , etc as soon as I entered the building, esp vs Big. 10 schools. Hell, even the pre-match hand shake felt like unnecessary roughness. I can't figure out why you would spend mental energy worrying about the sh*t that's out of your control. I had to go zen and/or junkyard dog or I was going to get beat up . . . bad.

The last thing I needed was somone I trusted telling me I was getting screwed/going to get screwed. The coach knows his athletes, so maybe his freakouts are what they need to perform their best. I doubt though that every single one of them responds well to an unhinged guy in the corner. Further, if Smith never modulates his mood, how do the kids know when he's pissed at them vs pissed at the refs vs pissed at the rules, etc. When do they know, "Oh, THIS freakout is important"?

 

[je55m00r3]

The same match where Fix had Suriano flattened out and the ref called a ******** stalemate? Then Suriano grabbed his head gear and they didn’t call it? How in the world some of these things can be twisted around into being John’s fault are crazy. Daton lost focus because of that? It seems personal between you and John. Along with a few others on here.

Yes, Daton got screwed multiple times that match. Like you said, the stalemate was absurd and Fix should have won the match right there. But you don't wonder why they called the stalemate? You don't think listening to a dude ***** at you for days on end weighs on you?

Re the head gear pull: Again, Fix absolutely got screwed. Suriano pulled his headgear. But as I noted in a previous post I can't forget the image of Fix standing straight-up looking quizically at the ref with his hand on his headgear while Suriano is in on his ankles. Fix stopped wrestling to complain to the officials.

In both cases, Fix got screwed. But, in both cases Fix still had a chance to win. Re legs stalemate: all he had to do was ride him for what. . . 5 seconds? Re headgear pull: instead of looking to the ref, why not get his hands and knees on the mat, i.e. keep wrestling. What a story that would have been: "Fix slays two dragons at once: Suriano and the refs"

 

[je55m00r3]

The facilities & the “near to NCAA violations “ that Pedo State have, that have Olympic athletes training & competing with their roster & getting compensated does not help.

In the immortal words of Confucius: If you ain't cheatin', you ain't tryin'

 

[je55m00r3]

John spoke after Daton beat Suriano on a hands to the face call in the dual. John said "he won, but he didn't do nothing".

And, yet, he tried to win the Finals match on the exact same call. He was looking for it from the opening whistle, just waiting to throw the brick. And then he did . . . He wasted the brick for a chance at winning on a technicality. Consequently, as Harley points out, he didn't have the brick when an actual violation occurred.

 

[turfpoke]

Coach Smith is a legend, but Cael is running circles around him in the coaching/recruiting/developing of his wrestlers the last decade. The results speak for themselves!

Would you be cool with Coach Smith still as head coach if he doesn’t win another title in 5 years....10 years....or until he decides to retire? I hope this doesn’t happen but would like to hear some opinions from posters that don’t question a single thing about Coach and keep saying everything is fine

No, I wouldn’t be cool with it. I question a lot of things going on.

1- Did Jordan Oliver develop?
2- Did Alex Dieringer develop?
3- Did AJ Ferrari develop?
4- Did Nick Nevilles develop?
5- Did Mason Manville develop?
6- Did Brady Berge develop?

Did Derek White develop? Was the correct decision made for his career at Oklahoma State?

They are getting 3 studs to our 1. That has to change and has been getting better. If we aren’t getting the recruits we go after, changes have to be made.

 

[je55m00r3]

They are getting 3 studs to our 1. That has to change and has been getting better. If we aren’t getting the recruits we go after, changes have to be made.

Did you see the Ridge Lovett/Dad Lovett/John Smith/Jordan Burroughs recruiting story on B1G Network? It aired during a Nebraska dual. It sheds some light on what OSU is up against.

 

[turfpoke]

Did you see the Ridge Lovett/Dad Lovett/John Smith/Jordan Burroughs recruiting story on B1G Network? It aired during a Nebraska dual. It sheds some light on what OSU is up against.

I saw it, but I don’t recall exactly what it was.

 

[je55m00r3]

I saw it, but I don’t recall exactly what it was.

Lovett said that OSU was recruiting him and John Smith came to his house. Lovett's dad was star-struck and by the time he left Dad had made his decision. Ridge was somewhat less impressed. Dad was dumbfounded: how could you turn down the GOAT? Ridge says "Jordan Burroughs."

 

[Mr. Blonde]

 

[JAY45]

In Football Terms, Penn State = Alabama

No one else is on that level.

Iowa is not on their level. They had to build to the point where they won it last year. And they have since fallen off, and will have to rebuild again.

Michigan is in the same boat...having to build and wait for their shot. Their team is built a LOT like OSU's, except more mature. Same guys as last year so everyone has had the chance to grow and develop.

It seems like there is a tendency to personalize it as to what OSU is not doing when it seems is it more of a function of what Penn State IS doing.

 

[Wrassler17]

And, yet, he tried to win the Finals match on the exact same call. He was looking for it from the opening whistle, just waiting to throw the brick. And then he did . . . He wasted the brick for a chance at winning on a technicality. Consequently, as Harley points out, he didn't have the brick when an actual violation occurred.

The hands to the face penalty was a train wreck that season. That's why it got scrapped. And John did lose his composure in the corner, no doubt. But it did not cost Daton the match...

Tim Shiels (supervisor of officials) was on Trackwrestling 3 weeks after the finals. He said...

- he told the lead ref that the stalemate call was made too quickly
- OSU was out of team challenges, but the refs chose to do an official's review anyway
- intent does not matter, any grabbing of the headgear is a penalty
- the refs had access to all ESPN camera angles for the review because it was the finals
- the NCAA would be going to an independent official review going forward

In summary, the refs cost Daton that match, not John.

 

[je55m00r3]

In summary, the refs cost Daton that match, not John.

Fair enough, but I wish Daton would have continued wrestling after the headgear grab.

 

[turfpoke]

Fair enough, but I wish Daton would have continued wrestling after the headgear grab.

I felt like the headgear grab was so egregious that Daton was reacting and showing the refs look what just happened. Kind of like a WR getting tackled while the ball is in the air and no flag being thrown. Then the refs went and reviewed it and didn’t have the guts to call it. You know they saw it.

 

[je55m00r3]

Then the refs went and reviewed it and didn’t have the guts to call it. You know they saw it.

Absolutely, but would it have been any less obvious if he kept wrestling.

Another totally tangential thing about that situation that I think about: when Askren wrestled Tsargush, Tsargush kept pulling Askren's hair the same way he pulled singlets... totally illegal obviously. So at trials, Askren went with the corn rows, and (I think) got it cut for the Olympics.

After the Suriano match, why didn't fix chop his mop? I remember the announcers (Iowa homers) making a todo about Fix's hair making it difficult to see the infraction.

 

[CowboyUp61]

Lovett said that OSU was recruiting him and John Smith came to his house. Lovett's dad was star-struck and by the time he left Dad had made his decision. Ridge was somewhat less impressed. Dad was dumbfounded: how could you turn down the GOAT? Ridge says "Jordan Burroughs."

who hasn't been at Nebraska for 2 years.

 

[turfpoke]

Absolutely, but would it have been any less obvious if he kept wrestling.

Another totally tangential thing about that situation that I think about: when Askren wrestled Tsargush, Tsargush kept pulling Askren's hair the same way he pulled singlets... totally illegal obviously. So at trials, Askren went with the corn rows, and (I think) got it cut for the Olympics.

After the Suriano match, why didn't fix chop his mop? I remember the announcers (Iowa homers) making a todo about Fix's hair making it difficult to see the infraction.

I agree on all of this. Daton obviously loves his hairstyle. Shouldn’t have ever gotten to that point if that crap ref doesn’t call the quickest stalemate in history to give Suriano a chance at an escape. That match and Oliver’s no takedown call against Steiber, are two I’m not going to forgive them for.

 

[Harleycowboy]

I felt like the headgear grab was so egregious that Daton was reacting and showing the refs look what just happened. Kind of like a WR getting tackled while the ball is in the air and no flag being thrown. Then the refs went and reviewed it and didn’t have the guts to call it. You know they saw it.

Daton should have kept wrestling, he likely has nightmares about losing that National Championships. While wrestling he could have told the ref he grabbed my headgear. Refs did screw him though, pitiful.

 

[je55m00r3]

who hasn't been at Nebraska for 2 years.

I know, right?

Kids are kids. I remember a guy in my recruiting class tell me that one of the reasons he chose the school was that we had adidas shoes (mid 90's . . . Sucked for him bc we switched Reebok)

 

[turfpoke]

I know, right?

Kids are kids. I remember a guy in my recruiting class tell me that one of the reasons he chose the school was that we had adidas shoes (mid 90's)

. I bet he got his degree in advertising.

 

[turfpoke]

Speaking of Jordan Oliver, anyone know if he has coaching aspirations after his career?

 

[Wrassler17]

Some others...

Keep it going:
- Recruiting. Keep targeting blue chippers and forget about building depth.
- Pipeline. Keep using Stillwater HS as a feeder system. If more families want to move, great.
- Fundraising. Got the anonymous $1M donation for the new locker room. Keep raising $ for the new facility.

Switch it up:
- RTC. Bring in some post grad RTC athletes - or fall behind. Bring in a top RTC coach (like JO).
- NIL. Get on board - or fall behind.
- Women's program. Get it off the ground and name a top coach (like Jacarra Winchester).
- Schedule. Make it tougher and set up home & aways for specific recruiting areas.
- Injuries. Stop prioritizing duals over Nationals (Mastro should have been shut down until Big12s).
- Marketing. Be more active on social media, get a Rokfin channel, promote the hell out of AJ, Daton & OSU's history.

 

[643Bsbl]

Some others...

Keep it going:
- Recruiting. Keep targeting blue chippers and forget about building depth.
- Pipeline. Keep using Stillwater HS as a feeder system. If more families want to move, great.
- Fundraising. Got the anonymous $1M donation for the new locker room. Keep raising $ for the new facility.

Switch it up:
- RTC. Bring in some post grad RTC athletes - or fall behind. Bring in a top RTC coach (like JO).
- NIL. Get on board - or fall behind.
- Women's program. Get it off the ground and name a top coach (like Jacarra Winchester).
- Schedule. Make it tougher and set up home & aways for specific recruiting areas.
- Injuries. Stop prioritizing duals over Nationals (Mastro should have been shut down until Big12s).
- Marketing. Be more active on social media, get a Rokfin channel, promote the hell out of AJ, Daton & OSU's history.

If we want to win another title this will have to happen. Next year we aren’t winning unless we pick up some title contender transfers cause PSU will put 5 guys in finals most likely again

 

[Harleycowboy]

I agree with all of it except the last line. John needs to put more energy into it. 6 time world champion, I bet he puts what it takes into to it. Maybe I’m wrong and he is getting complacent as he ages.
The problem I see is that for every 2 stars we get, they get Penn State gets 5. I don’t think it’s anything magical they are doing with development. Berge, Bartlett, Hilderbrant, and whoever their 165 is aren’t good. I’m sure they are developing them the same way. It’s Jimmys and Joes not Xs and Os.

That was just a thought and why I wrote maybe doesn't put enough energy into getting number 35.

 

[Okie_Pat]

IMO Daton lost both of his national championship matches bc he didn’t open up and score points. If you leave it in the hands of the ref then you will likely get screwed over. I don’t think John had a negative influence on the refs decisions in both matches. I do think Daton has learned from his previous mistakes, he needs to continue to wrestle through all positions and trust his instincts. RBY isn’t going to do anything in this match offensively tonight. He is simply going to wait for the time to run down and for Daton to take a bad/half shot and counter by a slide by (which is what happened in last years OT). RBY isn’t a mystery, he and Cael have a game plan and they will execute it. I’m sure their plan is to avoid as much action as possible and wait for 1 opportunity to score. Daton is dangerous when there is action and it’s up to Daton to create it.

 

[turfpoke]

IMO Daton lost both of his national championship matches bc he didn’t open up and score points. If you leave it in the hands of the ref then you will likely get screwed over. I don’t think John had a negative influence on the refs decisions in both matches. I do think Daton has learned from his previous mistakes, he needs to continue to wrestle through all positions and trust his instincts. RBY isn’t going to do anything in this match offensively tonight. He is simply going to wait for the time to run down and for Daton to take a bad/half shot and counter by a slide by (which is what happened in last years OT). RBY isn’t a mystery, he and Cael have a game plan and they will execute it. I’m sure their plan is to avoid as much action as possible and wait for 1 opportunity to score. Daton is dangerous when there is action and it’s up to Daton to create it.

Cael, or someone on that staff, is a master at scouting their opponents. I agree on Daton. Let it fly.

 

[Okie_Pat]

Cael, or someone on that staff, is a master at scouting their opponents. I agree on Daton. Let it fly.

They absolutely have to have someone behind the scenes taking notes and game planning. I heard the other day Coach smith day he doesn’t even look at the bracket or know who his guys are wrestling first round. I get that it doesn’t matter, just go out and win but that’s a very old school approach and the sport has changed a lot. Scouting matters, knowing and exposing opponents weaknesses matters.

 

[JAY45]

DeSanto showed the template against RBY. Relentlessly attack. DeSanto had RBY on his heels each match this year…just didn’t have enough to finish the job.

It seems better to go down swinging than be passive and lose by a slide by in OT.

Also, for whatever reason Daton couldn’t get off bottom last year. He’s rectified that.

 

[Okie_Pat]

DeSanto showed the template against RBY. Relentlessly attack. DeSanto had RBY on his heels each match this year…just didn’t have enough to finish the job.

It seems better to go down swinging than be passive and lose by a slide by in OT.

Also, for whatever reason Daton couldn’t get off bottom last year. He’s rectified that.

And yet RBY never gets called for stalling

 

[Okie_Pat]

And yet RBY never gets called for stalling

Actually maybe he did in the Iowa dual earlier this year. Either way he doesn’t do much perhaps the bare minimum in order to win.