this past season - a tale of two teams

[haywood jahblowme]

how different/fun could this have been if they consistently played at a high level like they showed at times? How different could it have been if boo wasn't hurt? if nance played consistent? if they were able to keep the big leads?

how different would you feel about the program and CCC at this point?

 

[DaCat]

We had some serious meltdowns, which could be blamed on inexperience, but also Collins deserves the blame in at least 3 or more of those losses. If we had hung on vs. Purdue and 2 ~ 3 others, I would be feeling a lot better about Collins. Also if we hadn't blown those 'ford games (Rad, Hart) and of course Merrimack College. I believe we left 5 ~ 6 wins out there. A won-loss record of 14-17 sure would've been better than 8-23.

 

[Medill90]

Last week I watched the '79 Final Four game between DePaul and Indiana State, two excellent teams. At the time, I worked in a grocery store and the games were early afternoon so this was the first time my seeing the game, though I saw 80+ percent of Aguirre's college games live.

Stating something we all know, but Bird was other worldly as a college senior. He wanted the ball every possession, but not necessarily to score....and he won the game with an assist when DePaul collapsed on him and he dished off to a no name.

But Aguirre. Aguirre was at the end of his freshmen season averaging around 20 a game. Did not hog the ball....it was a team of seniors...but he scored from everywhere on the court imaginable. Six five with a caboose, as Al Maguire said, that let him play like he was 6 10. After ISU scored with less than a minute left, Aguirre got the ball, an moving toward the top of the key with a man on his rump, turned and got off a good shot that hit the back of the rim.

The next year I don't think DePaul lost a game until they were knocked out in the first round of the tournament. Number one team in the country all year and Aguirre was player of the year. All year, the ball was in his hands when games were close (there weren't many close games) and he typically dominated. Same story his junior year, including the first round knock out.

This is meant to be related to NU. This year, the ball did not go in the hole at the end of close games and the only guy who really wanted the ball and to be put in that spot any time, any where....was Pat Spencer. I think Boo is that guy as well....drooling to get the ball end of game. Kopp and Nance...I think they're close and if they win one they'll be there.

I think this team is right on the edge of being uber competitive. Key ingredient...being super pissed off at losing.

 

[IdahoAlum]

Collins’ record in close games is an overall deterrent to optimism. When you’re not an overly talented team, you better figure out subtle ways to win some you’re supposed to lose. NU finds ways to lose games we should win.

 

[DaCat]

We were definitely lacking a take-charge fearless leader who made the clutch play down the stretch. Spencer tried to be that guy at times.

 

[hoosboot]

how different/fun could this have been if they consistently played at a high level like they showed at times? How different could it have been if boo wasn't hurt? if nance played consistent? if they were able to keep the big leads?

how different would you feel about the program and CCC at this point?

How differently would I feel about kale if it tasted like a ribeye? If the texture wasn't like eating newspaper? If it didn't closely resemble the things I pull out of my garden because they are inhibiting the growth of the things that I actually want to eat? How different/fun would that be?

 

[NURoseBowl]

Last week I watched the '79 Final Four game between DePaul and Indiana State, two excellent teams. At the time, I worked in a grocery store and the games were early afternoon so this was the first time my seeing the game, though I saw 80+ percent of Aguirre's college games live.

Stating something we all know, but Bird was other worldly as a college senior. He wanted the ball every possession, but not necessarily to score....and he won the game with an assist when DePaul collapsed on him and he dished off to a no name.

But Aguirre. Aguirre was at the end of his freshmen season averaging around 20 a game. Did not hog the ball....it was a team of seniors...but he scored from everywhere on the court imaginable. Six five with a caboose, as Al Maguire said, that let him play like he was 6 10. After ISU scored with less than a minute left, Aguirre got the ball, an moving toward the top of the key with a man on his rump, turned and got off a good shot that hit the back of the rim.

The next year I don't think DePaul lost a game until they were knocked out in the first round of the tournament. Number one team in the country
all year and Aguirre was player of the year. All year, the ball was in his hands when games were close (there weren't many close games) and he typically dominated. Same story his junior year, including the first round knock out.

This is meant to be related to NU. This year, the ball did not go in the hole at the end of close games and the only guy who really wanted the ball and to be put in that spot any time, any where....was Pat Spencer. I think Boo is that guy as well....drooling to get the ball end of game. Kopp and Nance...I think they're close and if they win one they'll be there.
I think this team is right on the edge of being uber competitive. Key ingredient...being super pissed off at losing.

Love ya, Medill, but please don't get me started on those DePaul teams of the late '70's-early'80's --- The Team That Channel 9 Made. At their pinnacle ('79-'80 & '80-'81), the number of ranked teams they played, you could count on the fingers of one hand, and next to none of those made-for-TV "glamour games" were on the road. The bulk of their schedules around that time were heavily populated with the basketball equivalents of the Little Sisters of the Poor, Hadley School for the Blind and other such cupcakes - NOT the schedule a supposed National Championship contender is supposed to be playing. Small wonder they got knocked out of the tournament much earlier than would theoretically have been expected in several of those seasons. Thanks for indulging me my mini-rant. Carry on . . . . .

 

[Vassar69]

Last week I watched the '79 Final Four game between DePaul and Indiana State, two excellent teams. At the time, I worked in a grocery store and the games were early afternoon so this was the first time my seeing the game, though I saw 80+ percent of Aguirre's college games live.

Stating something we all know, but Bird was other worldly as a college senior. He wanted the ball every possession, but not necessarily to score....and he won the game with an assist when DePaul collapsed on him and he dished off to a no name.

But Aguirre. Aguirre was at the end of his freshmen season averaging around 20 a game. Did not hog the ball....it was a team of seniors...but he scored from everywhere on the court imaginable. Six five with a caboose, as Al Maguire said, that let him play like he was 6 10. After ISU scored with less than a minute left, Aguirre got the ball, an moving toward the top of the key with a man on his rump, turned and got off a good shot that hit the back of the rim.

The next year I don't think DePaul lost a game until they were knocked out in the first round of the tournament. Number one team in the country all year and Aguirre was player of the year. All year, the ball was in his hands when games were close (there weren't many close games) and he typically dominated. Same story his junior year, including the first round knock out.

This is meant to be related to NU. This year, the ball did not go in the hole at the end of close games and the only guy who really wanted the ball and to be put in that spot any time, any where....was Pat Spencer. I think Boo is that guy as well....drooling to get the ball end of game. Kopp and Nance...I think they're close and if they win one they'll be there.

I think this team is right on the edge of being uber competitive. Key ingredient...being super pissed off at losing.

Any team that finishes with more losses than they wanted is pissed off at losing. If the Cats take a big step forward, it will be because the roster has more talent and maturity than it has the last three years. I think they should be quite a bit better next season.

 

[Medill90]

Love ya, Medill, but please don't get me started on those DePaul teams of the late '70's-early'80's --- The Team That Channel 9 Made. At their pinnacle ('79-'80 & '80-'81), the number of ranked teams they played, you could count on the fingers of one hand, and next to none of those made-for-TV "glamour games" were on the road. The bulk of their schedules around that time were heavily populated with the basketball equivalents of the Little Sisters of the Poor, Hadley School for the Blind and other such cupcakes - NOT the schedule a supposed National Championship contender is supposed to be playing. Small wonder they got knocked out of the tournament much earlier than would theoretically have been expected in several of those seasons. Thanks for indulging me my mini-rant. Carry on . . . . .

You are so right.

Northern Illinois University, Marquette (post Al McGuire, LaSalle, Northeastern, Illinois State....with a couple UCLA, Notre Dame and Louisville sprinkled stingily.

But this was before conference craziness....a lot of independents.

As guy who played h.s. ball in Chicago, it was great to see all those Chicago kids...Aguirre, Dillard, Cummings, Randolph...on the top ranked team.

And then overlapping and following those DePaul teams, NU with it's best two recruiting classes in a long time played in the Big Ten at its absolute peak, to get into a smaller -- 48 teams? -- NCAA tournament.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

How differently would I feel about kale if it tasted like a ribeye? If the texture wasn't like eating newspaper? If it didn't closely resemble the things I pull out of my garden because they are inhibiting the growth of the things that I actually want to eat? How different/fun would that be?

not a good anology

 

[Styre]

Edit: Never mind. Yes, I would have enjoyed the team more if they played better.

 

[hoosboot]

not a good anology

Not a good original post.

 

[Sec_112]

1) Sorry Haywood, I'm with Hoosboot on this one.

My evolving sports rule as I get older: If you're using the word "if" and "what if" a lot in your description of a team, it's probably a bad team. And that's obviously what the Cats were last year. Maybe they would have worked their way up to "eh." But a team that lost to Radford, Hartford and Merrimack was a long, long way from "fun."

With all that said, the ifs for the next team are realistic. What if Buie's game can evolve on top of the pre-injury performance? What if Kopp's game off the dribble can improve? What if the defense can take a step with Nance and Gaines? What if Beran's inside/out game can be more consistent?

2) RE: 80s DePaul teams ... I saw an All Star weekend interview involving Aguirre and Isiah Thomas. On a recruiting trip to UCLA, Aguirre felt he played as well as UCLA All-American David Greenwood in a pick up game. He wasn't that impressed by the number one team in the country and started thinking about building the same thing with Chicago players at DePaul. He says "he" started recruiting guys based on this idea at DePaul. "If I go, will you go?" He talked about getting Terry Cummings and Teddy Grubbs. I assume Dillard and Randolph were part of that also.

Then he turns to Isiah, and asks if he's allowed to tell the story. I guess Isiah was ready to follow Aguirre to DePaul. Then one of Thomas' many siblings had "another" bad espisode with drugs. They implied this was an ongoing thing.

After that episode in the Thomas household, Isiah's mother became concerned about what would happen to Isiah if he stayed in Chicago. She quickly called a press conference to announce Isiah was going to IU.

Isiah on a team with Aguirre and Cummings? It's the ultimate "what if."

BTW, there was a moment when both Aguirre and Thomas acknowledged Grubbs should have been the best of that group. I believe there's some sad stories about him and Bernard Randolph. The Skip Dillard trainwreck is somewhat well known.

 

[Medill90]

My cousin was involved with the DePaul program which was a big part of my following it.

Re UCLA, early in Aguirre's frosh year DePaul played at Pauly and got spanked. But with a handful of minutes left in the game, Agurre drove and dunked in traffic. It was so powerful the other nine players stopped for a second and gawked. It was pretty clear he was headed to great things. I want to say that DePaul defeated UCLA early in the tournament (a low ranked UCLA returned the favor and eliminated DePaul in the first round a couple years later).

David Greenwood! Back then the first two teams flipped a coin. The Bulls called tails and it was heads. Lakers picked first. Magic Johnson. Bulls took Greenwood.

 

[Sec_112]

... David Greenwood! Back then the first two teams flipped a coin. The Bulls called tails and it was heads. Lakers picked first. Magic Johnson. Bulls took Greenwood.

I'm glad someone out there shares this pain besides me.

But the argument always goes if the Bulls get Magic, they don't get Michael. However, I love Magic!! I know Michael is a better player, but I like the whole Magic "thing."

And as Michael gets older, I'm liking my choice more and more.

I'm hoping Michael doesn't turn "The Last Dance" into what he did to his Hall of Fame speech. I think Krause is going to take a beating for ten hours over the next few weeks. And some of it is deserved. But at some point, it's really cheap.

 

[haywood jahblowme]

1) Sorry Haywood, I'm with Hoosboot on this one.

My evolving sports rule as I get older: If you're using the word "if" and "what if" a lot in your description of a team, it's probably a bad team. And that's obviously what the Cats were last year. Maybe they would have worked their way up to "eh." But a team that lost to Radford, Hartford and Merrimack was a long, long way from "fun."

With all that said, the ifs for the next team are realistic. What if Buie's game can evolve on top of the pre-injury performance? What if Kopp's game off the dribble can improve? What if the defense can take a step with Nance and Gaines? What if Beran's inside/out game can be more consistent?

2) RE: 80s DePaul teams ... I saw an All Star weekend interview involving Aguirre and Isiah Thomas. On a recruiting trip to UCLA, Aguirre felt he played as well as UCLA All-American David Greenwood in a pick up game. He wasn't that impressed by the number one team in the country and started thinking about building the same thing with Chicago players at DePaul. He says "he" started recruiting guys based on this idea at DePaul. "If I go, will you go?" He talked about getting Terry Cummings and Teddy Grubbs. I assume Dillard and Randolph were part of that also.

Then he turns to Isiah, and asks if he's allowed to tell the story. I guess Isiah was ready to follow Aguirre to DePaul. Then one of Thomas' many siblings had "another" bad espisode with drugs. They implied this was an ongoing thing.

After that episode in the Thomas household, Isiah's mother became concerned about what would happen to Isiah if he stayed in Chicago. She quickly called a press conference to announce Isiah was going to IU.

Isiah on a team with Aguirre and Cummings? It's the ultimate "what if."

BTW, there was a moment when both Aguirre and Thomas acknowledged Grubbs should have been the best of that group. I believe there's some sad stories about him and Bernard Randolph. The Skip Dillard trainwreck is somewhat well known.

that is fine. but comparing a vegetable to a protein is not a good analogy for talking about a basketball team.

 

[hoosboot]

that is fine. but comparing a vegetable to a protein is not a good analogy for talking about a basketball team.

You mean a vegetable isn't a protein? Next thing you'll be telling me is that we didn't play at a consistently high level, Nance didn't play with consistency, and we couldn't hold a big lead!

 

[NJCat]

You mean a vegetable isn't a protein? Next thing you'll be telling me is that we didn't play at a consistently high level, Nancy didn't play with consistency, and we couldn't hold a big lead!

Nancy?

 

[hoosboot]

1) Sorry Haywood, I'm with Hoosboot on this one.

My evolving sports rule as I get older: If you're using the word "if" and "what if" a lot in your description of a team, it's probably a bad team. And that's obviously what the Cats were last year. Maybe they would have worked their way up to "eh." But a team that lost to Radford, Hartford and Merrimack was a long, long way from "fun."

With all that said, the ifs for the next team are realistic. What if Buie's game can evolve on top of the pre-injury performance? What if Kopp's game off the dribble can improve? What if the defense can take a step with Nance and Gaines? What if Beran's inside/out game can be more consistent?

2) RE: 80s DePaul teams ... I saw an All Star weekend interview involving Aguirre and Isiah Thomas. On a recruiting trip to UCLA, Aguirre felt he played as well as UCLA All-American David Greenwood in a pick up game. He wasn't that impressed by the number one team in the country and started thinking about building the same thing with Chicago players at DePaul. He says "he" started recruiting guys based on this idea at DePaul. "If I go, will you go?" He talked about getting Terry Cummings and Teddy Grubbs. I assume Dillard and Randolph were part of that also.

Then he turns to Isiah, and asks if he's allowed to tell the story. I guess Isiah was ready to follow Aguirre to DePaul. Then one of Thomas' many siblings had "another" bad espisode with drugs. They implied this was an ongoing thing.

After that episode in the Thomas household, Isiah's mother became concerned about what would happen to Isiah if he stayed in Chicago. She quickly called a press conference to announce Isiah was going to IU.

Isiah on a team with Aguirre and Cummings? It's the ultimate "what if."

BTW, there was a moment when both Aguirre and Thomas acknowledged Grubbs should have been the best of that group. I believe there's some sad stories about him and Bernard Randolph. The Skip Dillard trainwreck is somewhat well known.

I'd never heard that story about the original IT going to DePaul. That would have been sick...the Fab 5 before the Fab 5.

Agree that the more interesting what if's are looking forward. A lot of that is because we are so young and the die hasn't been cast completely for a lot of these guys. Buie should be able to take a step forward...I hope it's in his ability to organize offense for others. Asking that out of Berry as a true frosh may be asking a lot. And I can't help wondering if Nance still has that big step forward that he missed after his freshman year now that he's over a year removed from the mono that compromised his first-year season. I'm not sure there's an All-American candidate in the mix yet, so the guys emerging into better defined roles seems so important to the team's development. Unfortunately, the coronavirus closures can't be helping towards that.

 

[hoosboot]

Nancy?

Oops! Thanks for the catch. Fixed it.

 

[Sec_112]

I'd never heard that story about the original IT going to DePaul. That would have been sick...the Fab 5 before the Fab 5 ...

I was the same. I had heard DePaul was one of Thomas' finalists, but I didn't know it was that close.

I was inspired to find the show. Let's see how accurate my original description was. Check it out and fast forward to 4:34. Candace Parker also asks a good question.

As an aside, in the clip titled, "What did the 90s Bulls mean to Chicago, " they cap it off with a REALLY good question for Isiah, "What's it like becoming a villian in your hometown."

 

[NURoseBowl]

You mean a vegetable isn't a protein? Next thing you'll be telling me is that we didn't play at a consistently high level, Nance didn't play with consistency, and we couldn't hold a big lead!

Proteins just, you know . . . . . taste better than vegetables.

 

[hoosboot]

I was the same. I had heard DePaul was one of Thomas' finalists, but I didn't know it was that close.

I was inspired to find the show. Let's see how accurate my original description was. Check it out and fast forward to 4:34. Candace Parker also asks a good question.

As an aside, in the clip titled, "What did the 90s Bulls mean to Chicago, " they cap it off with a REALLY good question for Isiah, "What's it like becoming a villian in your hometown."

Thanks for that link. You pretty much nailed the story. The Aquirre part of it was the best part, too. And I loved the part where Dwayne Wade and Tim Hardaway say that they would have loved to have been recruited by some Chicago schools. Wade said he only got a "half-offer" from DePaul. Man, those are some big misses and, unfortunately, I don't think they are ones that NU even had the chance to take a shot at.

 

[Catreporter]

Ray Meyer went to his grave thinking something stunk about Aguirre's last game, an inexplicable 49-47 loss to St. Joes at Dayton in the first round of the NCAA. I think Aguirre only took six shots in that game for some reason. And I remember him wearing earphones, walking back to the hotel, and refusing to answer any media questions postgame.

 

[Sec_112]

Ray Meyer went to his grave thinking something stunk about Aguirre's last game, an inexplicable 49-47 loss to St. Joes at Dayton in the first round of the NCAA. I think Aguirre only took six shots in that game for some reason. And I remember him wearing earphones, walking back to the hotel, and refusing to answer any media questions postgame.

I've heard those theories also, and I can't say I totally discount them. Look at the defense on that last full court possession.

And I consider Aguirre's position in such a thing. But then I believe I remember that Aguirre was reported to be openly weeping after the game.

Oh well ... for me, the rise and fall of that era of DePaul is intriguing.

 

[Sec_112]

... And I loved the part where Dwayne Wade and Tim Hardaway say that they would have loved to have been recruited by some Chicago schools ...

That part kills me a bit. They call out DePaul as well as other Chicago programs as a large group. Loyola gets a quick shout.

And you know what none of them were even thinking.

 

[cedricmelons]

That part kills me a bit. They call out DePaul as well as other Chicago programs as a large group. Loyola gets a quick shout.

And you know what none of them were even thinking.

Dwayne Wade was Prop 48.

 

[Katatonic]

Biggest reasons for the losing seasons since the NCAAs goes back to recruiting.

Not recruiting enough ball handling guards (who can score) and recruiting too many similar wing/F players who, for the most part, can't shoot consistently.

Both things leading to a disjointed O which allowed teams to come back after big deficits.

But just as important (allowing for those huge comebacks) is the D not being anywhere close to the level when Pardon manned the paint and the 'Cats had top-level perimeter defenders in Lumpkin, Law and Lindsey.

W/ that kind of D, even w/ the disjointed O (which is capable of going for extended minutes w/o scoring a basket), don't think some of those teams would have come back on the 'Cats (the under par D made things too easy for them).