Thought we had the backups at bigs this year-

dukiejay

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On paper and on the court are two completely different things.

Our success over the past decade with instant-impact freshman for some reason clouds people judgment into thinking every freshman is ready right away. Gerald Henderson should play more they said. So should Nolan, Elliot, Olek, Semi, Amile and more. Unfortunately some kids just aren't ready.

It's not too soon to give up on Sean, but K isn't going to play him just to play him. And Antonio, despite his size, was a 3-star coming out of high school. I'm not sure anyone had him penciled into the rotation three months ago. I know I didn't. I expected Chase to be a bit further along but it hasn't worked out that way.

Take this into consideration.....look at UK where Skal, the #1 ranked big man and a guy many had pegged as the first overall pick next summer is doing. His minutes are going down every game and now some experts are saying he may not even get drafted. And what about Diallo (sp) at KU? He can't find the floor. Nine months ago he was the MVP at the McDonald's game.

I know when Amile is hurt and we struggle like we did last night people are going to search for causes but also solutions. I get that. But we didn't lose last night because Sean, Chase and Antonio either 1) didn't play, or 2) didn't give us much of anything when they did. We lost because of foul trouble and lack of aggression on offense. The worst thing that can happen sometimes is when you start 6-8 from three....after that we were 5-17 and became reliant. And is wasn't missed free throws....it was a lack of free throws/lack of aggression.
 

barkingpumpkin

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On paper and on the court are two completely different things.

Our success over the past decade with instant-impact freshman for some reason clouds people judgment into thinking every freshman is ready right away. Gerald Henderson should play more they said. So should Nolan, Elliot, Olek, Semi, Amile and more. Unfortunately some kids just aren't ready.

It's not too soon to give up on Sean, but K isn't going to play him just to play him. And Antonio, despite his size, was a 3-star coming out of high school. I'm not sure anyone had him penciled into the rotation three months ago. I know I didn't. I expected Chase to be a bit further along but it hasn't worked out that way.

Take this into consideration.....look at UK where Skal, the #1 ranked big man and a guy many had pegged as the first overall pick next summer is doing. His minutes are going down every game and now some experts are saying he may not even get drafted. And what about Diallo (sp) at KU? He can't find the floor. Nine months ago he was the MVP at the McDonald's game.

I know when Amile is hurt and we struggle like we did last night people are going to search for causes but also solutions. I get that. But we didn't lose last night because Sean, Chase and Antonio either 1) didn't play, or 2) didn't give us much of anything when they did. We lost because of foul trouble and lack of aggression on offense. The worst thing that can happen sometimes is when you start 6-8 from three....after that we were 5-17 and became reliant. And is wasn't missed free throws....it was a lack of free throws/lack of aggression.

The reasons you give for the loss are all correct, but the lack of interior depth has reduced our margin for error. Obviously, no one thought amile would get hurt. And there were good reasons to suspect that we'd get more out of chase and sean. Not great production necessarily, but a little more than 5 fouls in 5 minutes, or whatever it was. We've pretty much gotten the bare minimum out of the range of reasonably expected outcomes.

With that said, I'm not that down about this loss. We made a lot of correctable mistakes. The raw materials are still there to have a decent year.
 

Anon1728003274

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DukieJay agree w/your points, but this paricular season I see the "not ready to play" as magnified...Thats because you have THREE guys who cannot help at interior slots...

IOW, if the schollys at 1 thru 5's were more scattered, I suppose it wouldnt be so GLARING...

We may not have lost

A/"because they didnt play"
And/Or
B/because they "didnt give us much when they did."

We simply enter EVERY GAME w/o Amile w/not a SINGLE BONAFIDE legit reserve big in case of foul trouble/injury....I think your point in earlier posts is very true about erring in staff evaluations...Sigh....
 

dukiejay

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The reasons you give for the loss are all correct, but the lack of interior depth has reduced our margin for error.

Most certainly. I'm not arguing that. That's clearly a weakness. But last night was a winnable game despite those inefficiencies and the fact we didn't do the things we typically do well.
 

dukiejay

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We simply enter EVERY GAME w/o Amile w/not a SINGLE BONAFIDE legit reserve big in case of foul trouble/injury....I think your point in earlier posts is very true about erring in staff evaluations...Sigh....

I trust the staff more than I trust myself. I think it's too soon to say they missed on Chase and Antonio. Both have been on campus less than six months. Chase is going to be a good player. It doesn't look like it right now, but trust me, he will be. He's a freshman. Think back to what being being a freshman meant 20 years ago. That's the context I mean it in. Antonio it's not even worth the discussion. Again....a 3-star player that wasn't expected for anything this season. But maybe productive down the road? Don't know yet.

Sean is the one that has me puzzled more. It's easy to sit here and say he should play. But really, what we have seen has shown a lot....and by a lot I mean nothing. Was it a misevaluation? I don't know. After all, he does have two more seasons after this one.
 

chov1125

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Last night was a loss for easily identifiable reasons.

1. Turnovers- You can't waste possessions on the road, you just cant. Way too many turnovers especially in the second half when they were shooting poorly for a period of time. They were getting 2-3 looks per possession and many times we weren't even getting 1.

2. Rebounding- 36-24 we were out rebounded by. Way too many offensive rebounds for them (10) and certainly not enough for us (4). These are extra shots, extra looks that one team gets and another does not. Especially on the road, the home team is eventually going to make a shot or two which ignites the crowd and leads to more and more makes. I will note, this is an area that people are going to critique Marshall and for a fair reason. He always seems to be out of position on the defensive end which leads to men being wide open on the weak side of the hoop where a majority of shots come off. This specific area is where we desperately need Amile back because he always seems to be in position and ready for a missed shot on either end.

3. Shot Selection- As DJ mentioned sometimes the worst thing that can happen is a hot start. We made a ton of 3's in the first half and play perimeter ball down the stretch. When you are only getting 1 look per possession, a cold spell from 3 at the worst time can sink a team. We went cold, we were sunk.

4. Foul Trouble/Timid Defense- I thought it was a very tight whistle last night, but it happens, especially to road teams. We had numerous guys in foul trouble, which led to a switch to zone defense. I won't critique the switch because we needed to keep guys on the floor, but I will critique us staying in zone when it was clearly not working. I will be honest that was the most timid zone defense I have ever seen watching a basketball game before. Hands were down, there was no energy, the top of our zone BI, was scared to go anywhere a Clemson guard and the gaps were bigger than the parting of the Red Sea. When we went back to man our energy picked up and we stringed together a few stops in a row and almost clawed all the way back.

5. Free Throws: Lastly this is a 2 part category. Our reliance on the 3 point shot led to us not shooting enough free throws and down the stretch we missed several key free throws, mostly by guys that shoot higher than 80% from the line.

Add up categories 1-5 and it equals a road loss 9/10 times. It was very disappointing because this is a game we let slip away and we now have 3 losses and have yet to get to the meat and potatoes of our schedule. I am confident these areas will be addressed but it will be up to the players to execute better going forward as Coach K has clearly exhausted his eligibility. As the saying goes X player is not walking through that door. Our roster is our current roster and it's up to our guys to get better or we could be staring a several more losses going forward.
 

Anon1728003274

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I trust the staff more than I trust myself. I think it's too soon to say they missed on Chase and Antonio. Both have been on campus less than six months. Chase is going to be a good player. It doesn't look like it right now, but trust me, he will be. He's a freshman. Think back to what being being a freshman meant 20 years ago. That's the context I mean it in. Antonio it's not even worth the discussion. Again....a 3-star player that wasn't expected for anything this season. But maybe productive down the road? Don't know yet.

Sean is the one that has me puzzled more. It's easy to sit here and say he should play. But really, what we have seen has shown a lot....and by a lot I mean nothing. Was it a misevaluation? I don't know. After all, he does have two more seasons after this one.

My problem however is w/the way the landscape of the game has evolved, almost overnite....I think you simply have to be more careful now doling schollys to "projects" in the land of OAD's
 

dukiejay

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Last night was a loss for easily identifiable reasons.

1. Turnovers- You can't waste possessions on the road, you just cant. Way too many turnovers especially in the second half when they were shooting poorly for a period of time. They were getting 2-3 looks per possession and many times we weren't even getting 1.

2. Rebounding- 36-24 we were out rebounded by. Way too many offensive rebounds for them (10) and certainly not enough for us (4). These are extra shots, extra looks that one team gets and another does not. Especially on the road, the home team is eventually going to make a shot or two which ignites the crowd and leads to more and more makes. I will note, this is an area that people are going to critique Marshall and for a fair reason. He always seems to be out of position on the defensive end which leads to men being wide open on the weak side of the hoop where a majority of shots come off. This specific area is where we desperately need Amile back because he always seems to be in position and ready for a missed shot on either end.

3. Shot Selection- As DJ mentioned sometimes the worst thing that can happen is a hot start. We made a ton of 3's in the first half and play perimeter ball down the stretch. When you are only getting 1 look per possession, a cold spell from 3 at the worst time can sink a team. We went cold, we were sunk.

4. Foul Trouble/Timid Defense- I thought it was a very tight whistle last night, but it happens, especially to road teams. We had numerous guys in foul trouble, which led to a switch to zone defense. I won't critique the switch because we needed to keep guys on the floor, but I will critique us staying in zone when it was clearly not working. I will be honest that was the most timid zone defense I have ever seen watching a basketball game before. Hands were down, there was no energy, the top of our zone BI, was scared to go anywhere a Clemson guard and the gaps were bigger than the parting of the Red Sea. When we went back to man our energy picked up and we stringed together a few stops in a row and almost clawed all the way back.

5. Free Throws: Lastly this is a 2 part category. Our reliance on the 3 point shot led to us not shooting enough free throws and down the stretch we missed several key free throws, mostly by guys that shoot higher than 80% from the line.

Add up categories 1-5 and it equals a road loss 9/10 times. It was very disappointing because this is a game we let slip away and we now have 3 losses and have yet to get to the meat and potatoes of our schedule. I am confident these areas will be addressed but it will be up to the players to execute better going forward as Coach K has clearly exhausted his eligibility. As the saying goes X player is not walking through that door. Our roster is our current roster and it's up to our guys to get better or we could be staring a several more losses going forward.

Wow. Well said. I pretty much agree with everything you said.
 

Anon1728003274

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We need somebody to go "Reggie Love" off the bench, lol!!! I remember several contests I heard K's postgames begin"Reggie gave us a lift," but that "X player" is clearly not in the cards apparently among our backup bigs this year....
 

dukiejay

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My problem however is w/the way the landscape of the game has evolved, almost overnite....I think you simply have to be more careful now doling schollys to "projects" in the land of OAD's

The landscape has changed....it is what it is. I actually think we've done a pretty good job adapting to it.

And to the point about giving scholarships to "projects" I think we're taking a pretty sound approach. I have to imagine Antonio knew the situation he was coming into. His ceiling at Duke is down the road....when we could likely need it. This season many projected Marshall, Amile and Chase to be the main bigs, with Brandon also seeing time at the "4" as a guy who can face up. Marshall, even with his limitations as a senior, is worlds ahead of where he was three seasons ago. If Antonio follows the same curve I'll be pretty pleased.
 

denverexpat

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My 0.02c - i agree that there should be room on the team for projects or 3-4 yr players who are longer term BUT those players should be able to give you at least some minutes in their freshman year. If they are a Duke scholarship player, I would hope they have been playing elite level basketball since they were very young so they should be versed in the fundamentals and know what it takes to compete. Granted they dont know the Duke scheme but some of BB is instinct and knowledge like any sport and carries forward from your experience.

What we are witnessing this year with the big man depth is frustrating. We should have 2-3 bench players who can jump onto the court and hold their own for 5 mins...rebound, block out maybe even get a fortuitous bucket on offense...but we dont. To hear Coach K in his presser from the Clemson game talk about no options is startling...its the coaching staff who recruit and plan the rosters so they should take the responsibility for the depth issues...NBA draft entries and all..
A miss or two on a recruit is understandable...no plan B is unacceptable when you get to pick the cream of the crop
Dont read this wrong, Coach K is an amazing coach, person and leader..making the current situation even more perplexing

Ok....that was cathartic!...now i hope we take this loss and dont bring such a lacklustre effort for the remainder of the season.
 

denniden

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We need somebody to go "Reggie Love" off the bench, lol!!! I remember several contests I heard K's postgames begin"Reggie gave us a lift," but that "X player" is clearly not in the cards apparently among our backup bigs this year....
That could have been Obi but i think he is not in great shape and is slow to react on the court so that limits his chances of being that guy, right now. Maybe things change going forward in the season. I hope they do and Obi has to see an opportunity right now to get some burn to major burn. I am not sure there can be more motivation for a guy like him. Vrank is a guy that we all knew was going to take a while until he was a contributor. People need to get him out of their minds and if he happens to do anything this year, it is all gravy.
 

Anon1728003274

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That could have been Obi but i think he is not in great shape and is slow to react on the court so that limits his chances of being that guy, right now. Maybe things change going forward in the season. I hope they do and Obi has to see an opportunity right now to get some burn to major burn. I am not sure there can be more motivation for a guy like him. Vrank is a guy that we all knew was going to take a while until he was a contributor. People need to get him out of their minds and if he happens to do anything this year, it is all gravy.
Hard to get those 7 footers on schollys out of your mind Denni...Gotta go w/denverexpat's rationale earlier...
 

Anon1728003274

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Setting yourself up for some disappointment?
No sir, just would expect a bit more positive in form of contributions...Heck if Chase plays w/o being so foul prone even, its acceptable compared to what we observed....Again I am more in accord to denexpat's POV...
 

stanleyduke

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I'm not saying Obi deserves to play (he's been terrible in the limited action I've seen) but I'd be willing to give him some minutes in the first half/early second half just to help keep Marshall and Ingram out of foul trouble and rested for the last 10 minutes of the game. With this 6 man rotation (with a couple Jeter minutes), we are going to lose a lot more ACC games due to situations like last night where Marshall and Ingram are out of gas and in foul trouble for the final 10 minutes of the game.
 
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Anon1728003274

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I'm not saying Obi deserves to play (he's been terrible in the limited action I've seen) but I'd be willing to give him some minutes in the first half/early second half just to help keep Marshall and Ingram out of foul trouble and rested for the last 10 minutes of the game. With this 6 man rotation (with a couple Jeter minutes), we are going to lose a lot more ACC games due to situations like last night where Marshall and Ingram are out of gas and in foul trouble for the final 10 minutes of the game.
X2
 

barkingpumpkin

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My 0.02c - i agree that there should be room on the team for projects or 3-4 yr players who are longer term BUT those players should be able to give you at least some minutes in their freshman year. If they are a Duke scholarship player, I would hope they have been playing elite level basketball since they were very young so they should be versed in the fundamentals and know what it takes to compete. Granted they dont know the Duke scheme but some of BB is instinct and knowledge like any sport and carries forward from your experience.

What we are witnessing this year with the big man depth is frustrating. We should have 2-3 bench players who can jump onto the court and hold their own for 5 mins...rebound, block out maybe even get a fortuitous bucket on offense...but we dont. To hear Coach K in his presser from the Clemson game talk about no options is startling...its the coaching staff who recruit and plan the rosters so they should take the responsibility for the depth issues...NBA draft entries and all..

But it's clear that chase and Sean aren't ready to provide very much at all. Just like Marshall wasn't ready for several years. It's a huge jump from the most competitive high school and AAU ball to the ACC. It just takes some guys one or more years to even be able to hold their own...hell, some never get there at all.

That said, I think Mike thought he had the roster figured out for this year. He probably thought they'd be further along than they are, which would be reasonable. It's not like Duke was the only one who wanted these guys.

Honestly, I ascribe our current predicament more to bad luck than roster mismanagement or coaching errors.
 

dukehokie

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Just 10-15 years ago, a freshman that contributed was a rarity and a blessing. Now it's expected that the freshmen come in and give you what you need. The game has changed ladies and gentlemen, but the talent curve remains the same. There is only so much, some guys can do.

If you want a good indicator, follow their timeline in high school. Were they always "the man"? Did they blow up late? Were they just solid for 4 years, but had better stats senior year?

Look at Ryan Kelly. His career arc at Duke almost directly followed his high school progression. As did, Matt Jones. As did Marshall. As did Amile. We can keep going back, and it's always going to be the same. Some guys take longer. Chase Jeter is another. Look at his first two years in high school and look at his last. He will take some time getting used to this level.

We get enamored with the Ball Is Life mixtapes and think that's what we should expect. Those are HIGHLIGHTS. Meaning, they are not the norm. They are plays made outside of the normal situation. Yes, you can tell what skill a player may possess, but you can't tell how it will translate.

This season, if nothing else should definitely be a lesson in expectations.
 
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Jake1985

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Antonio has skills and IQ but his mobility, conditioning and such would create such a hitch in how a team needs to defend or team running the court would flow. I know for a fact, that when Vrank was being recruited the idea was he would need a year with the Duke strength and conditioning coach/program to address his conditioning etc. He is the "Diamond in the crowd" type kid to where if his game readiness needs ever catch up to his intangibles he will contribute. Not ideal for solution to this years issues but he could have a role in the year(s) to come.
 

Anon1728003274

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Just 10-15 years ago, a freshman that contributed was a rarity and a blessing. Now it's expected that the freshmen come in and give you what you need. The game has changed ladies and gentlemen, but the talent curve remains the same. There is only so much, some guys can do.

If you want a good indicator, follow their timeline in high school. Were they always "the man"? Did they blow up late? Were they just solid for 4 years, but had better stats senior year?

Look at Ryan Kelly. His career arc at Duke almost directly followed his high school progression. As did, Matt Jones. As did Marshall. As did Amile. We can keep going back, and it's always going to be the same. Some guys take longer. Chase Jeter is another. Look at his first two years in high school and look at his last. He will take some time getting used to this level.

We get enamored with the Ball Is Life mixtapes and think that's what we should expect. Those are HIGHLIGHTS. Meaning, they are not the norm. They are plays made outside of the normal situation. Yes, you can tell what skill a player may possess, but you can't tell how it will translate.

This season, if nothing else should definitely be a lesson in expectations.

You'd like to think just ONE of THREE however would make the cut as a newcomer!
 

CRAZIE4LIFE

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This freshman class is disappointing all around other than Ben Simmons. Some have had their moments. We were spoiled last year and in years past by certain freshman types but this year ain't it. Ingram is good but not great but has potential along with Luke. This year we don't have a Nolan, Kyle, Jon, or a Quinn which is what this class is missing. Next year will be special but just relax and enjoy what we have. It could always be worse. We have a top 25 team to watch and there are 322 teams that can't say that.
 
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CRAZIE4LIFE

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I wasn't knocking Ingram, I just meant as a whole there aren't any freshman that are really carrying their team this year compared to years past and what we will see next year
 
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Anon1728003274

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K thx for posting and I am not here to take Bret to task...The trio of Chase/Obi/Vrank are in fact "options." We simply choose to use them AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE...I am not saying thats wrong, but as Strelow notes, we did "think enough of them" to offer schollys..
 

WI#1Dukie22

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Ingram is coming mighty close to carrying a team ( look beyond scoring, and stats) , he's been absolutely dynamite! To be honest I'm gaining Kyrie like trust in this kid. He's an all around beast! It's a shame he gets sold short, even by his own. Today's day and age rash judgment is pathetic ..... If Brandon doesn't dramatically improve from the slow start, this season could easily be the biggest mess of my lifetime (with K involved)

Amile will be back, Duke will be fine, UNC will continue to wonder how in the world we always own that azz
 
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Anon1728003274

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Ingram is coming mighty close to carrying a team ( look beyond scoring, and stats) , he's been absolutely dynamite! To be honest I'm gaining Kyrie like trust in this kid. He's an all around beast! It's a shame he gets sold short, even by his own. Today's day and age rash judgment is pathetic ..... If Brandon doesn't dramatically improve from the slow start, this season could easily be the biggest mess of my lifetime (with K involved)

Amile will be back, Duke will be fine, UNC will continue to wonder how in the world we always own that azz
Lol, love it!!! Agreed...Brandon is AMAZING!!