Thoughts from Evanston yesterday

NUChicago

Junior
Aug 23, 2001
3,683
248
63
It was a gorgeous day in the Chicago area yesterday and I love the 2PM start. Had a good burger at BAT 17, really nice NU place and they have a NU Bud Light sign I would love to have in my man cave. But then the game started:

Collins looks beat down and miserable.
Jerry Brown was at the game (nice to see).
The loudest cheer came from the free chicken sandwich, Yes, you read that right.
As always, Jim Phillips was in attendance.Must have been embarrassed with the roar over free food opposed to his team.
Zero energy in the building (imagine that), and a small Minnesota contingent.
The team looks confused and just not fun to watch at all.

I was not expecting a win, but man what a waste of two hours and we were never close. JP has some thinking to do, as it is harder to build a team (including finding the right coach) than build buildings.
 

7th Cir. Cat

Redshirt
Jul 25, 2006
2,171
9
23
I also had pre-game meal at Bat 17! I had the fried chicken sliders and a pint of the Sketchbook IPA. Best part of the afternoon.
 

NUChicago

Junior
Aug 23, 2001
3,683
248
63
I also had pre-game meal at Bat 17! I had the fried chicken sliders and a pint of the Sketchbook IPA. Best part of the afternoon.
We also like to go to Bangers and Lace. The food is great but the service is terrible. Basics like do you want another drink or silverware. Two times I have had to go to the bar and ask for a beer, when the server never returned. Downtown Evanston has changed so much, I am glad there are many options.
 

hoosboot

All-American
Nov 7, 2001
26,893
6,534
0
The loudest cheer came from the free chicken sandwich, Yes, you read that right.
As always, Jim Phillips was in attendance.Must have been embarrassed with the roar over free food opposed to his team.

Unfortunately, the free chicken sandwich was the best part of the game.
 

torque-cat

Redshirt
Dec 11, 2018
1,234
0
0
It was a gorgeous day in the Chicago area yesterday and I love the 2PM start. Had a good burger at BAT 17, really nice NU place and they have a NU Bud Light sign I would love to have in my man cave. But then the game started:

Collins looks beat down and miserable.
Jerry Brown was at the game (nice to see).
The loudest cheer came from the free chicken sandwich, Yes, you read that right.
As always, Jim Phillips was in attendance.Must have been embarrassed with the roar over free food opposed to his team.
Zero energy in the building (imagine that), and a small Minnesota contingent.
The team looks confused and just not fun to watch at all.

I was not expecting a win, but man what a waste of two hours and we were never close. JP has some thinking to do, as it is harder to build a team (including finding the right coach) than build buildings.

Don't think JP has much thinking to do right now, unless he thinks CC has lost all recruiting mojo (doesn't seem likely given recent articles about 4 and 5 stars looking at NU), has lost the respect of his players or whose character is a concern--none of these seem true. He is not gonna buy out a long-term contract from the one guy who got us to the tourney, is playing one of the least experienced rosters in the country in the toughest conference and who has been bringing in good talent with program-changing recruits seriously looking at NU.
 

phatcat_rivals223240

All-Conference
Nov 5, 2001
18,861
1,027
113
Don't think JP has much thinking to do right now, unless he thinks CC has lost all recruiting mojo (doesn't seem likely given recent articles about 4 and 5 stars looking at NU), has lost the respect of his players or whose character is a concern--none of these seem true. He is not gonna buy out a long-term contract from the one guy who got us to the tourney, is playing one of the least experienced rosters in the country in the toughest conference and who has been bringing in good talent with program-changing recruits seriously looking at NU.
general question for the CCC defenders. Aside from some scandal (cheating, crime, etc), what level of failure, and for how long, would lead you to say, "Ok, I see, we need someone else"? For instance, if they go 3-17 or worse in the B1G next year, is that bad enough? the year after? to be fair, I asked the same about Fitz after 2x 5-7 seasons. He turned it around then, and I believe he will again.

So - what say you all?
 

xxxbobxxx

Sophomore
Mar 12, 2005
10,806
163
43
Lately, I've often wondered if this is the case.

We will know once the season ends. It seems like the transfers started pretty early last year.

But, here is what I wonder - PBJ and Christie would probably only come as a package and would be talking to each other. I have to wonder if they have a third, fourth, maybe even fifth player. We are facing two open schollies. So, if PBJ and Co approached CCC and said that they will come, but only as a package deal. You figure out admissions and scholarships by x/x/xx and we will announce to become the next Fab 5 and overtake the prior one since we are going to a non-blue blood and will take them to the Final Four (it would be a mind blowing feat).

In this fantasy of mine, what does CCC, and hopefully JP, do? First, I would like to believe they convince Morti to remove any admissions hurdles. But if there are three needed schollies... And how would you feel if you somehow learned that they ran off three current kids...but to bring in the team of a lifetime and probably one and done for a couple of those players?

I doubt this will happen. I also doubt PBJ and Christie come here. But the idea is quite interesting.
 

willycat

Junior
Jan 11, 2005
21,448
318
0
We will know once the season ends. It seems like the transfers started pretty early last year.

But, here is what I wonder - PBJ and Christie would probably only come as a package and would be talking to each other. I have to wonder if they have a third, fourth, maybe even fifth player. We are facing two open schollies. So, if PBJ and Co approached CCC and said that they will come, but only as a package deal. You figure out admissions and scholarships by x/x/xx and we will announce to become the next Fab 5 and overtake the prior one since we are going to a non-blue blood and will take them to the Final Four (it would be a mind blowing feat).

In this fantasy of mine, what does CCC, and hopefully JP, do? First, I would like to believe they convince Morti to remove any admissions hurdles. But if there are three needed schollies... And how would you feel if you somehow learned that they ran off three current kids...but to bring in the team of a lifetime and probably one and done for a couple of those players?

I doubt this will happen. I also doubt PBJ and Christie come here. But the idea is quite interesting.
I say make it all happen. There is one guard who's not getting many meaningful minutes and big who's underperforming. Two plus two could = a "fab four"!
 

hdhntr1

All-Conference
Sep 5, 2006
37,245
1,086
113
general question for the CCC defenders. Aside from some scandal (cheating, crime, etc), what level of failure, and for how long, would lead you to say, "Ok, I see, we need someone else"? For instance, if they go 3-17 or worse in the B1G next year, is that bad enough? the year after? to be fair, I asked the same about Fitz after 2x 5-7 seasons. He turned it around then, and I believe he will again.

So - what say you all?
I have always looked at this year as rebuilding but we also had a perfect storm of things go wrong, not the least of which was seeing Gaines go down. So this year became all about the development of the younger players. Would have liked if a couple of the grads would have stuck around as it would be better for them learning to play D but they made the choices that were best for them.Like a lot what I am seeing out of Young and Jones as well. Buie is showing he can play but I would like to see more of him assisting others. Will be interesting to see how they develop for next year. Nash has shown signs of what he can be and I like it when he goes after the basket. I feel a year will make a pretty big difference
 

GatoLouco

Sophomore
Nov 13, 2019
5,636
116
63
we also had a perfect storm of things go wrong, not the least of which was seeing Gaines go down.

Can you please elaborate how the perfect storm is worse than the situation of the following teams?

Iowa
-Jordan Bohannan - out for season
-Jack Nunge - out for season
-Patrick McCaffery - out for season
-Aidan Vanderloo - out for season

Minnesota
Eric Curry - out for season

Wisconsin
-Owen Hamilton - out for season
-Joe Hedstrom - out for season
-Kobe King - left program

Illinois
-Jacob Grandison - out for season
-Benjamin Bosmans-Verdonk - out for season

Michigan State
-Joshua Langford - out for season
-Brock Washington - out for season

Ohio State
-Musa Jallow - out for season
-Justice Sueing - out for season
-DJ Carton - out for season

Purdue
-Brandon Newman - out for season
-Mason Gillis - out for season

Nebraska
-Derrick Walker - out for season
-Delano Banton - out for season
-Shamiel Stevenson - out for season
-Matej Kavas - out for season

Northwestern
-Anthony Gaines - out for season.

Those are just players out for the season. List does not include players who missed games within season. Because of injury, suspension, etc. That leaves Michigan, Rutgers, Indiana and Penn St as more "fortunate" than us.

Point is, stop thinking we are just victims of circumstances. We are not. Set backs are far more the norm than the exception.
 

phatcat_rivals223240

All-Conference
Nov 5, 2001
18,861
1,027
113
I have always looked at this year as rebuilding but we also had a perfect storm of things go wrong, not the least of which was seeing Gaines go down. So this year became all about the development of the younger players. Would have liked if a couple of the grads would have stuck around as it would be better for them learning to play D but they made the choices that were best for them.Like a lot what I am seeing out of Young and Jones as well. Buie is showing he can play but I would like to see more of him assisting others. Will be interesting to see how they develop for next year. Nash has shown signs of what he can be and I like it when he goes after the basket. I feel a year will make a pretty big difference
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

To me, notwithstanding any hypothetical 5* recruits that might always be out there, I'd like to see a semblance of consistency, continuity, progress, effort, improvement, etc.

I mean, even Fitz, of all people, fired McCall.
 

CappyNU

Junior
Mar 2, 2004
5,160
338
83
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

To me, notwithstanding any hypothetical 5* recruits that might always be out there, I'd like to see a semblance of consistency, continuity, progress, effort, improvement, etc.

I mean, even Fitz, of all people, fired McCall.
For me, if we're not back in the NCAA tourney by the 2021-22 season, then I'm on board for a change. I've been looking for silver linings all season, but there's no defense for what happened in yesterday's game.
 

purplejustice

Redshirt
Jan 2, 2006
1,074
43
48
I went to my granddaughter’s third grade coed basketball game rather than going to see the Wildcats. She scored a key basket. Sounds like I made a great decision. I will be back on Thursday and hope for a better game from the Cats.
 

Fitz51

Senior
Oct 21, 2008
10,115
649
0
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

I'd have to say if Collins ever praised the work of Bill Carmody, that would be enough for me.
 

PURPLECAT88

Senior
Feb 4, 2003
7,676
727
113
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

To me, notwithstanding any hypothetical 5* recruits that might always be out there, I'd like to see a semblance of consistency, continuity, progress, effort, improvement, etc.

I mean, even Fitz, of all people, fired McCall.
We can't look at it as "Is Collins the answer?" The question is "Who can we get that would be better?" For example, if Beilein is willing to come on board, Collins should be gone tomorrow. I couldn't give you any other examples because I'm just not that plugged in to the rising stars in the coaching ranks, but there needs to be a plan. Firing Collins and then hoping to find someone better is not a plan.
 

combes

Heisman
Jul 10, 2001
36,256
10,766
66
Can you please elaborate how the perfect storm is worse than the situation of the following teams?

Iowa
-Jordan Bohannan - out for season
-Jack Nunge - out for season
-Patrick McCaffery - out for season
-Aidan Vanderloo - out for season

Minnesota
Eric Curry - out for season

Wisconsin
-Owen Hamilton - out for season
-Joe Hedstrom - out for season
-Kobe King - left program

Illinois
-Jacob Grandison - out for season
-Benjamin Bosmans-Verdonk - out for season

Michigan State
-Joshua Langford - out for season
-Brock Washington - out for season

Ohio State
-Musa Jallow - out for season
-Justice Sueing - out for season
-DJ Carton - out for season

Purdue
-Brandon Newman - out for season
-Mason Gillis - out for season

Nebraska
-Derrick Walker - out for season
-Delano Banton - out for season
-Shamiel Stevenson - out for season
-Matej Kavas - out for season

Northwestern
-Anthony Gaines - out for season.

Those are just players out for the season. List does not include players who missed games within season. Because of injury, suspension, etc. That leaves Michigan, Rutgers, Indiana and Penn St as more "fortunate" than us.

Point is, stop thinking we are just victims of circumstances. We are not. Set backs are far more the norm than the exception.

On Illinois, Verdonk is out for the season and is redshirting. However, Grandison (and Hutcherson) are both transfers sitting out this season.
 

EvanstonCat

Senior
May 29, 2001
50,761
762
73
We will know once the season ends. It seems like the transfers started pretty early last year.

But, here is what I wonder - PBJ and Christie would probably only come as a package and would be talking to each other. I have to wonder if they have a third, fourth, maybe even fifth player. We are facing two open schollies. So, if PBJ and Co approached CCC and said that they will come, but only as a package deal. You figure out admissions and scholarships by x/x/xx and we will announce to become the next Fab 5 and overtake the prior one since we are going to a non-blue blood and will take them to the Final Four (it would be a mind blowing feat).

In this fantasy of mine, what does CCC, and hopefully JP, do? First, I would like to believe they convince Morti to remove any admissions hurdles. But if there are three needed schollies... And how would you feel if you somehow learned that they ran off three current kids...but to bring in the team of a lifetime and probably one and done for a couple of those players?

I doubt this will happen. I also doubt PBJ and Christie come here. But the idea is quite interesting.

I would say that CCC telling kids that they are unlikely to play at all, and letting them chase their dreams elsewhere like Ash, Benson, etc... would be perfectly fine. And not inviting back players for a 5th year is perfectly fine too. Not sure how many people fit into that boat.
 

xxxbobxxx

Sophomore
Mar 12, 2005
10,806
163
43
I would say that CCC telling kids that they are unlikely to play at all, and letting them chase their dreams elsewhere like Ash, Benson, etc... would be perfectly fine. And not inviting back players for a 5th year is perfectly fine too. Not sure how many people fit into that boat.

Pretty sure if PBJ and Christie headlined a Fab Five, in would be conditioned on all five having the starting spots to lose. So in that mindset, Buie, Berry, the other incoming frosh would seemingly be the strongest reserves depending on who rounds out that five.

Based on current sizes: PBJ should be a 4, but wants to be a 3. Goode and Christie are both 2s. If you ran an LG with two wings and two taller stretch 4 (tall 3s) - you probably get beat up underneath. But the speed... And not much for Cs, or even 1s, on the 2021 NU Board. Akin is the only PG I even see.

So, this leaves me wondering - outdoing the Fab 5 of Michigan fame would be a reason to come here, as it would involve a non-blue blood school and thereby a better accomplishment. But the likely guys play the same positions and they have no Chris Webber / Juan Howard type to bring. I think that is quite important to realistically reach a Final Four.

If it is not a Fab 5 scenario, I really struggle to see either of those guys coming here. They are both likely one and done players. They want to be showcased. In a nontraditional bball program - that requires winning. Can they win with Berry/Buie at the 1, Christie at the 2, PBJ at the 3, Beran or Nance at the 4 and either Nicholson, Young or Jones at the 5?

Well, assuming both PBJ and Christie are the real deal, then you have Buie that shows signs but isn't a threat to be All B!G yet. Berry - could be? So could every other heralded recruit in NU history. Neither Nance nor Beran are striking fear in the opponents eyes just yet. And none of the bigs are projected All B!G either - again, not that they cannot become such. BUt very, very few have at NU.

Well, if you remove the Fab 5 scenario and you critically, honestly assess the surrounding cast - it is hard to believe that those two program changers would risk big money for the sake of the nostalgia of playing on the court that they used to wipe down. So I still don't see either in purple.
 

Medill90

Junior
Jan 30, 2011
6,910
321
0
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

To me, notwithstanding any hypothetical 5* recruits that might always be out there, I'd like to see a semblance of consistency, continuity, progress, effort, improvement, etc.

I mean, even Fitz, of all people, fired McCall.

I think it's a fair question (for any school in a similar situation).

What makes it hard is that it's NU so no standard model applies.

For me, there needs to be positive progress in terms of wins next year AND the year after. Within that, there need to be close-game wins...NU has to stop the late game collapse and has to win...let's say 40%....of the 50/50 games. And the recruiting must continue at pace or improve. (note I do not mention NIT or NCAA)

He does that, he should finish his contract. Which, he's going to do anyway. Cuz it's NU.
 

Sec_112

Sophomore
Jun 17, 2001
6,599
195
63
not trying to troll - but I'd really like an answer. What lever of failure would lead CCC defenders to say "I've had enough - he's not the answer"?

To me, notwithstanding any hypothetical 5* recruits that might always be out there, I'd like to see a semblance of consistency, continuity, progress, effort, improvement, etc ...

I'll play along. However, I wouldn't call myself the greatest Collins fan in the world.

The "I've had enough" level? Another year like this is pretty unacceptable. 1-15 in the conference along with some bad pre-conference losses next year, and I'd be done. You can't have this level of losing with no signs of hope.

Earlier this year, someone here also made the point that if the team loses the effort down the stretch, that's another bad sign. Well, here we are. That's weighing on my oh-so-influential evaluation.

The problem becomes these levels of gray - 4-16 in the conference next year ... 1-15 next year with a four game winning streak to end the season ... 7-13 in two years.

I'm not exactly doing backflips for four or five conference wins next year against the bottom third of the conference. That's the kind of stuff propping up the records of past coaches - wins against an easy pre-conference schedule, then weasel 4 or 5 wins against the basement of the conference.

If we're in that gray area, I'm also a guy who doesn't like the chances of the unproven commodity vs. Collins. This gig almost requires five years minimum.

If CC gets 4-6 conference wins next year, I'm comfortable seeing if he can do it again in '21-'22.

One more thing: He can't have more than one player leave this year from the group of Kopp, Buie, Beran, Young and Jones.
 

Purple Pile Driver

All-Conference
May 14, 2014
27,123
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Pretty sure if PBJ and Christie headlined a Fab Five, in would be conditioned on all five having the starting spots to lose. So in that mindset, Buie, Berry, the other incoming frosh would seemingly be the strongest reserves depending on who rounds out that five.

Based on current sizes: PBJ should be a 4, but wants to be a 3. Goode and Christie are both 2s. If you ran an LG with two wings and two taller stretch 4 (tall 3s) - you probably get beat up underneath. But the speed... And not much for Cs, or even 1s, on the 2021 NU Board. Akin is the only PG I even see.

So, this leaves me wondering - outdoing the Fab 5 of Michigan fame would be a reason to come here, as it would involve a non-blue blood school and thereby a better accomplishment. But the likely guys play the same positions and they have no Chris Webber / Juan Howard type to bring. I think that is quite important to realistically reach a Final Four.

If it is not a Fab 5 scenario, I really struggle to see either of those guys coming here. They are both likely one and done players. They want to be showcased. In a nontraditional bball program - that requires winning. Can they win with Berry/Buie at the 1, Christie at the 2, PBJ at the 3, Beran or Nance at the 4 and either Nicholson, Young or Jones at the 5?

Well, assuming both PBJ and Christie are the real deal, then you have Buie that shows signs but isn't a threat to be All B!G yet. Berry - could be? So could every other heralded recruit in NU history. Neither Nance nor Beran are striking fear in the opponents eyes just yet. And none of the bigs are projected All B!G either - again, not that they cannot become such. BUt very, very few have at NU.

Well, if you remove the Fab 5 scenario and you critically, honestly assess the surrounding cast - it is hard to believe that those two program changers would risk big money for the sake of the nostalgia of playing on the court that they used to wipe down. So I still don't see either in purple.

Christie goes to my local HS. He is dominant player, but he is not a one and done.
 

GatoLouco

Sophomore
Nov 13, 2019
5,636
116
63
20-21
Less than 6 wins - fired
6 wins - meh
7-8 wins - ok
More than 8 wins - over achieving

21-22
Less than 7 wins - fired
7-8 wins - meh
9-10 wins - ok
More than 10 wins - over achieving
 

NJCat

All-Conference
Mar 7, 2016
21,327
1,502
113
20-21
Less than 6 wins - fired
6 wins - meh
7-8 wins - ok
More than 8 wins - over achieving

21-22
Less than 7 wins - fired
7-8 wins - meh
9-10 wins - ok
More than 10 wins - over achieving
Conference or total wins?
 

Figrating

Redshirt
Dec 19, 2007
3,568
30
0
This season can not end soon enough.

The biggest question for an NU HC is, "Can you recruit for NU?" CCC has shown he can. Few can do it and of those who can, few are interested. It's 3-D depressing to watch this NU team get pushed all over the floor, but I still have hope for the future.

NU could not afford to lose Gaines. Other conference teams that lost players for the season have more talent and more experienced talent to pick up the slack. It hasn't hurt them nearly as much as the loss of Gaines hurt NU.
 

Catreporter

Senior
Sep 4, 2007
4,957
437
83
Let's not forget that coaches with winning resumes as HEAD coaches such as Bill Foster, Tex Winter and even Kevin O'Neill, could not get it done in Evanston.
 

willycat

Junior
Jan 11, 2005
21,448
318
0
I'll play along. However, I wouldn't call myself the greatest Collins fan in the world.

The "I've had enough" level? Another year like this is pretty unacceptable. 1-15 in the conference along with some bad pre-conference losses next year, and I'd be done. You can't have this level of losing with no signs of hope.

Earlier this year, someone here also made the point that if the team loses the effort down the stretch, that's another bad sign. Well, here we are. That's weighing on my oh-so-influential evaluation.

The problem becomes these levels of gray - 4-16 in the conference next year ... 1-15 next year with a four game winning streak to end the season ... 7-13 in two years.

I'm not exactly doing backflips for four or five conference wins next year against the bottom third of the conference. That's the kind of stuff propping up the records of past coaches - wins against an easy pre-conference schedule, then weasel 4 or 5 wins against the basement of the conference.

If we're in that gray area, I'm also a guy who doesn't like the chances of the unproven commodity vs. Collins. This gig almost requires five years minimum.

If CC gets 4-6 conference wins next year, I'm comfortable seeing if he can do it again in '21-'22.

One more thing: He can't have more than one player leave this year from the group of Kopp, Buie, Beran, Young and Jones.
Wouldn't like to lose any of those guys. However lake of playing time may force losing one or two of Nance, Greer and are we sure Gaines will be able to come back. Need some extra open scholarships.
 

Gocatsgo2003

All-Conference
Mar 30, 2006
46,631
3,011
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Wouldn't like to lose any of those guys. However lake of playing time may force losing one or two of Nance, Greer and are we sure Gaines will be able to come back. Need some extra open scholarships.

Need good players who want to take those scholarships first.
 

TheC

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
19,099
1,169
62
This season can not end soon enough.

The biggest question for an NU HC is, "Can you recruit for NU?" CCC has shown he can. Few can do it and of those who can, few are interested. It's 3-D depressing to watch this NU team get pushed all over the floor, but I still have hope for the future.

NU could not afford to lose Gaines. Other conference teams that lost players for the season have more talent and more experienced talent to pick up the slack. It hasn't hurt them nearly as much as the loss of Gaines hurt NU.
I'm not sold that Collins can recruit for NU. In my mind, a college coach is like a mid-size business owner. He needs to be talented at what he does (i.e., coach basketball), but more importantly, he needs to have a great plan and build an organization to execute that plan. The first problem I have had with Collins is that his recruiting strategy doesn't make sense. I feel like he is just trying to land as many four star guys as he can get without a real organizational plan for how those pieces fit together. For example, we got a bunch of tall, skinny, slow four star guys who could apparently shoot well for their size, but were tweeners - they weren't as good at shooting as a top shooting guard would be and they were not very good doing traditional big man things. So, in the end, they didn't turn out to be all that exceptional. Then there was the inability to find ball handling guards to mix in with these bigger guys. My second problem is about a lack of identity (which I guess is related to the first problem). There are some coaches that have a distinctive style and you can say - this kid is a Coach X kind of player. He fits that coach's style. Can we say that about Collins? What kind of kid would we say is a Coach Collins kind of player?

This has all led to a team that on paper has had some of our highest rated recruits, making us think Collins is a great recruiter, but some pretty bad teams (save that one magical run) because the parts don't really fit. I'm just not as impressed with his ability to build an organization and, to me, that's about smart recruiting.
 

NJCat

All-Conference
Mar 7, 2016
21,327
1,502
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I'm not sold that Collins can recruit for NU. In my mind, a college coach is like a mid-size business owner. He needs to be talented at what he does (i.e., coach basketball), but more importantly, he needs to have a great plan and build an organization to execute that plan. The first problem I have had with Collins is that his recruiting strategy doesn't make sense. I feel like he is just trying to land as many four star guys as he can get without a real organizational plan for how those pieces fit together. For example, we got a bunch of tall, skinny, slow four star guys who could apparently shoot well for their size, but were tweeners - they weren't as good at shooting as a top shooting guard would be and they were not very good doing traditional big man things. So, in the end, they didn't turn out to be all that exceptional. Then there was the inability to find ball handling guards to mix in with these bigger guys. My second problem is about a lack of identity (which I guess is related to the first problem). There are some coaches that have a distinctive style and you can say - this kid is a Coach X kind of player. He fits that coach's style. Can we say that about Collins? What kind of kid would we say is a Coach Collins kind of player?

This has all led to a team that on paper has had some of our highest rated recruits, making us think Collins is a great recruiter, but some pretty bad teams (save that one magical run) because the parts don't really fit. I'm just not as impressed with his ability to build an organization and, to me, that's about smart recruiting.
Excellent post.

Collins is 11-43 in the B1G in the last 3 seasons. Throw out the unicorn season and the peasants would be out with pitchforks for his hide. Just don't see why some think Collins is a great fit for NU.
 

Purple Pile Driver

All-Conference
May 14, 2014
27,123
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Excellent post.

Collins is 11-43 in the B1G in the last 3 seasons. Throw out the unicorn season and the peasants would be out with pitchforks for his hide. Just don't see why some think Collins is a great fit for NU.
He had one full recruiting cycle and made the Tourney. Even won a game and put a scare into the top seed. Spare the part that CBC recruits were the reason. He completely missed in wave two of recruits. There were some injuries, but that doesn’t excuse the very poor output by the group as a whole. CCC has to own that, it’s on him. Now his in in the third and current wave, let’s have this play out as the tiebreaker. If anyone thought NU was going to win games in the B1G this year with a team of underclassman and no real superstar they were dreaming.
 

Styre

Senior
Oct 14, 2004
7,729
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Next year should be make-or-break for Collins. IMO he needs to do one (or both!) of two things to keep his job:

1. Field a competitive team with a winning overall record. "Competitive" does not mean "loses all of its conference games but by close margins."

2. Recruit PBJ/Christie or equivalent.

If neither of those things happen, he should be relieved of his duties.
 
Jul 26, 2001
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Just don't see why some think Collins is a great fit for NU.

Chris Collins the brand is a good fit for Northwestern. The Chris Collins brand would probably have to be tarnished by something other than just bad basketball teams for NU to make a change before his contract is up.
 

PurpleFaze

Redshirt
Jan 9, 2019
1,331
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Excellent post.

Collins is 11-43 in the B1G in the last 3 seasons. Throw out the unicorn season and the peasants would be out with pitchforks for his hide. Just don't see why some think Collins is a great fit for NU.

His last two classes and the one coming in for next year have been more than acceptable recruiting for NU at this stage of the program. If he can keep recruiting at that level Or better then that is a reason to give him more time. If the recruiting falls off the next year or two then that would be a huge negative in my opinion.

The next question then becomes can he coach well enough? Next year he’s going to have a large contingent of juniors and sophs so to me it’s going to really show if he can survive in the Big 10.

Personally I think he’s got a two year window to get things on solid footing or his seat is going to be scorching hot.
 

GatoLouco

Sophomore
Nov 13, 2019
5,636
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I'm not sold that Collins can recruit for NU. In my mind, a college coach is like a mid-size business owner. He needs to be talented at what he does (i.e., coach basketball), but more importantly, he needs to have a great plan and build an organization to execute that plan. The first problem I have had with Collins is that his recruiting strategy doesn't make sense. I feel like he is just trying to land as many four star guys as he can get without a real organizational plan for how those pieces fit together. For example, we got a bunch of tall, skinny, slow four star guys who could apparently shoot well for their size, but were tweeners - they weren't as good at shooting as a top shooting guard would be and they were not very good doing traditional big man things. So, in the end, they didn't turn out to be all that exceptional. Then there was the inability to find ball handling guards to mix in with these bigger guys. My second problem is about a lack of identity (which I guess is related to the first problem). There are some coaches that have a distinctive style and you can say - this kid is a Coach X kind of player. He fits that coach's style. Can we say that about Collins? What kind of kid would we say is a Coach Collins kind of player?

This has all led to a team that on paper has had some of our highest rated recruits, making us think Collins is a great recruiter, but some pretty bad teams (save that one magical run) because the parts don't really fit. I'm just not as impressed with his ability to build an organization and, to me, that's about smart recruiting.

Lots of interesting thought there. And, bear in mind, I am probably one of the most vocal critics of CC's decisions.

Still, I don't see the situation exactly as you do. I like the analogy of a coach being a lot like running a medium sized business. Build a team over time. But I think you are overlooking what kind of business he is running.

I believe you are thinking he runs a business that is profitable, and has the ability of recruiting decent talent. Say that business is a law office or something like that. It pays competitively, makes good choices on who to hire. Has challenges, but can execute on a vision of what it wants. And, most importantly, can more or less easily find the human capital it needs.

I believe CC is not running that kind of business. I believe he is running more of a retail operation. I say this because retail is a world I know fairly well. In such world, you do not offer very attractive work. You offer mostly $10/hour work that is not fun. Often work entails back breaking hours and hours of throwing freight onto shelves. Even at a manager level, it's not very attractive. It has enormous amounts of stress. Employees steal a lot, don't show for work, your talent pool comes from a socially challenged background where lives are chaotic. And, in the end, if you find someone reliable, who shows up for work, does not steal, that is good enough. You take the best you can get. Because there are not that many people wanting to work for you.

Bringing it back to NU bball. We can't aim to recruit from the entire "market". Most kids are not eligible to play for us. We have an horrendous track record. We have some good points, we offer great education, we have decent facilities, great city... We win on the front against a lot of other programs. But we are not competing with mid majors. We are competing with the big boys. Our competition for recruiting is fierce. So what is the best strategy? hard to figure out.

You hear the stories of how Rutgers built its current team. Hard nosed kids. You hear how Brad Stevens built the Butler teams, where attitude was far more important in recruiting than talent. But are we in a position of executing on that when our recruiting base is so small? Probably not.

So what do you do? For the most part, and in most cases, you are probably better off following the principle that if you find a good recruit, you take it. Regardless of position or need. That is not to say you do not try to balance the team. Point guard story, bla, bla, bla. You need a couple of big guys, bla, bla, bla... But for the most part, you can get a good prospect, you have to take him, because truth is that you don't get many chances at top 150 players. Maybe over time that can change. One can dream.

Wow, this got long. And, in the end, it is all summed by the inevitable conclusion, over and over again: it always goes back to admissions
 

TheC

All-Conference
May 29, 2001
19,099
1,169
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For the most part, and in most cases, you are probably better off following the principle that if you find a good recruit, you take it. Regardless of position or need.
Generally, I think your post makes sense until I got to this line. I think you are right that this is the approach CCC has taken most recently. I think the results show that this strategy is a miserable failure.

I would argue this wasn't the strategy CCC took with his first team. He got solid players where he had a plan in place for how they would fit. BMac, Lindsay, Law and Pardon are really nice complimentary pieces. He then got away from that approach in his get a bunch of tall four-star wings that don't really mesh recruiting plan and we've seen this team get worse every year since.
 

GatoLouco

Sophomore
Nov 13, 2019
5,636
116
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Generally, I think your post makes sense until I got to this line. I think you are right that this is the approach CCC has taken most recently. I think the results show that this strategy is a miserable failure.

I would argue this wasn't the strategy CCC took with his first team. He got solid players where he had a plan in place for how they would fit. BMac, Lindsay, Law and Pardon are really nice complimentary pieces. He then got away from that approach in his get a bunch of tall four-star wings that don't really mesh recruiting plan and we've seen this team get worse every year since.

Yeah, can't disagree with that.

I'm not defending not recruiting for position. You have to do it. Lindsey, that you mentioned, was a recruit ranked #281. You still have to fill roster spots to balance the team. Lindsey turned out great, his rank suggested he would not be nearly as good as he was. Buie was ranked #327, promised to be better than rank suggested.

I guess my point was that, in most cases, we can ill afford to pass on any top 150 recruit that wants to play for us.

Back to your point: CC failed, he did, as we went through multiple years of getting nothing out of our recruiting classes. Did not land a PG with BMac still on roster. And after that, we know what happened. Center, Benson never developed into a capable B1G center. Shooting guard, still don't have anything resembling a decent 2. You are right, we got higher recruits than we usually do, but they tended to be 1) too late to not have an enormous gap in competitiveness 2) in the 3-5 position (Nance, Kopp, Beran, Young...)