To all my atheist and agnostic friends.
- Thread starter Son_Of_Saul
- Start date
So I was watching a preacher on TV the other week. He seemed like a knowledgeable and sincere gentlemen.
Well, he was talking about all of the good things that God wants for "you"
God wants you:
To be happy
Find love
Etc...
As I listened to him I got to thinking of all the times I have heard similar thoughts and teachings my whole life. We know exactly that God wants and he has a plan for use to be happy and live an eternal life in heaven if we follow His plan.
But then memories of all of the tragedies I have seen in life came back, if someone questions why God would let this happen, without fail....We can't know Gods plan,
I have a really hard time with this. Somebody please explain it to me.
Disclosure. I am a very atheistic leaning agnostic.
Well, he was talking about all of the good things that God wants for "you"
God wants you:
To be happy
Find love
Etc...
As I listened to him I got to thinking of all the times I have heard similar thoughts and teachings my whole life. We know exactly that God wants and he has a plan for use to be happy and live an eternal life in heaven if we follow His plan.
But then memories of all of the tragedies I have seen in life came back, if someone questions why God would let this happen, without fail....We can't know Gods plan,
I have a really hard time with this. Somebody please explain it to me.
Disclosure. I am a very atheistic leaning agnostic.
Ram, I don't believe god to be the beginning nor the end. Who's right? You? As you know from your experience as a therapist that emotional reasoning is a huge cognitive distortion.
That "Where's there is smoke, there must be fire" feeling isn't good enough to base the claim.
Just because it feels right, does not mean it is. FWIW, when I am in sessions with Christians, I want them to use their faith to help themselves. If they haven't been going to church and they are dealing with depression. I'll make a suggestion using Solution Focus Therapy to see if that will help get them back to church and hence make their situation better. I am a-ok with people having faith. But it does not speak for me, nor does it conclude that what Christians feel is the right way. As a whole on society, it's arrogant and condescending to come to the conclusion of god when it is based on pure conjecture.
Why are you listening to TV preachers? They just want your money.
The bible never says there will not be suffering. In fact it says quite the opposite.
Quit listening to the sunshine pumpers that just want your money. They've bastardized the bible into this "prosperity" ********. It's just a scam to have you believe that God wants them to be rich and happy and God will make you rich and happy too if you pay them.
And it's not arrogant and condescending to call someone's entire belief system "conjecture"? Hypocrite.
You all are the hypocritingest hypocrites on the hypocrittiest hypocritey hypocratel.
hahaha, and you're a drama king. It is all conjecture unless you can bring more credible evidence to the table than some book written by goat herders thousands of years ago. The fact you whine and cry over it does nothing to change the point. Bring better evidence to the table and then you'll have our attention.
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My only problem with this conversation is that for non-believers they make no attempt to allow for the possibility because science wins out. However they are more than willing to give science plenty of time to explain the condition known as transgender. So really science is guided with plenty of bias, because man or woman is always leading the way. Take the bias out of both and what are you left with?
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I said only problem, that's false. I also have a problem with Christians who can't conduct themselves in a manner that promotes the teachings of Christianity. The aggressive, rude, and plain mean thoughts and words of some are a big reason why many people choose not to believe. We are all products of our surroundings, and many a Christian has contributed to making the divide much wider.
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I said only problem, that's false. I also have a problem with Christians who can't conduct themselves in a manner that promotes the teachings of Christianity. The aggressive, rude, and plain mean thoughts and words of some are a big reason why many people choose not to believe. We are all products of our surroundings, and many a Christian has contributed to making the divide much wider.
It's not even about the science for me. I just can't believe in any text with supernatural stories. Also there is the whole issue with the bible itself. The council of nicaea, multiple translations, forgeries, copies of copies of copies.., verses later added to complete a narrative, contradictions, errors, and on and on. And then there is the ridiculousness of the whole metanarrative. I also don't agree with the treatment of women and other groups in the bible.
[laughing] Sorry, but just how much time you need? You've had over 3000 years to your stake your claim and the only evidence comes from a book written 3000 years ago. That's the overall arrogance I was talking about (not saying you are arrogant.) We've accommodated your beliefs for so long, that when large amounts of people start questioning it, you fall back on the "just see it from our perspective". We have seen it, over and over and over again, and it still makes no sense.
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I think you misunderstood me Willy. I'm not taking sides here, I'm just pointing out the arrogance of both sides. I believe there is common ground to be had, but both sides (much like politics) have to much pride for that to happen. Science is a very wide reaching field and science has verified things that were though to be false through archaeological findings. I'm completely open to whatever the truth is, but won't say yes or no to either. I also think it's completely reasonable and needed for people to question things that don't have obviously clear answers, that's what helps to keep the pursuit for the truth moving forward. You won't find me mocking, degrading, or ridiculing either side in an honest fashion.
Just because we can't figure it out on our time lines in this lifetime, doesn't mean we stop trying. Just leaving it up to an invisible sky person, is not good enough for a species craved on discovery of knowledge. That will never stop.
Let's assume for a second Iran does have Noah's boat. I think the main question we should ask is does it reside in the Middle East or Asia?
Thanks for not calling me a drama queen.
I don't think many christians have given a rip about what atheists thought for most of modern history. Christians have no interest in proving their beliefs. It's just when atheists start attacking christians, calling their beliefs "dangerous" and "barbaric" and trying to tear down their existence that they start responding.
I mean... You're a weirdo. Can we all agree on that? You're a lovable weirdo and most of us (hopefully I'm not just talking for myself) assume most of what you say is in jest. Why on earth would I care what you think? I'm sure you would be great to grab a beer with on game day and we could put our differences aside but literally I don't care what you think about religion.
I often think atheists need the validation so they prod at religious people until they get a reaction. I'm sure the "socialite christians" do too, for that matter. They're the ones that usually react first. It's like that **** little cousin that bugged you until you slugged his *** then tied him up in bed sheets and put him in a hutch. Just because you got a reaction from a portion of the representation doesn't mean you aren't an insignificant twerp.
And for the troglodytes who are gonna say "awful thoughts for someone that's religious." I never actually did that. Never actually thought about doing it. Just trying to make an analogy you all can associate with.
I completely understand and agree with what you are saying.
Honestly, I was channel surfing and just stopped for a bit. But, it did make me realize that the....let me call it phenomenon I mentioned above, is the belief I have observed my whole life from a wide variety of people.
Just look at any social media outlet and I believe you will see the:
If it is something good that happen = "see that proves there is a God"
If it is a tragedy of any sort, but such as a kid getting hurt, cancer, etc.= "We cannot know God,s plan, He obviously need that three year old to suffer and die,she is needed in heaven."
Epicurus said it best around 400 BC. At least for me.
Crazy, you sure are full of yourself. Like you think you're the decider.
Trust me it's ditto. Beer and a ball game sure, anything other than that id pay no real attention to your opinion on important matters. May actually be the last person I'd seek to get wise information from.
Trust me it's ditto. Beer and a ball game sure, anything other than that id pay no real attention to your opinion on important matters. May actually be the last person I'd seek to get wise information from.
Brilliant. Thank you, I need that belly laugh.
I am in Barcelona at the moment on another of my " limited travels" and I can tell you for a fact; Spain, along with Portugal as mentioned before,does not appear to be Asian.
I only added the above because I was a part of the previous discussion and wanted to add some light hearted sarcasm.
Oh and I am in a hotel try to "type" on my phone, so my ramblings, spelling and grammar will be for worse than usual. This thing sucks for a keyboard.
Is that what I said? Interesting.
You spouted off a number. I just want to know where it came from.
I hope I did the quote thing correctly this time, if not I tried.
As I understand it, if some event, discovery or heck, even if I just truly have ha change of heart I can be a believer now no harm no foul. Provided I truly believe. That is a pretty good deal.
But if I understand religion (all or most of them) for God to be infallible what was set in stone thousands of years ago, is it. There is no, "well, he had that wrong and science has proven it this way now."
If a true believer says that well then God is not truly, infallible. Oh wait, we can move what ever "it" is from the literal to the allegory category. Problem solved.
Science can evolve. I do not believe the concept of an omnipotent supreme being can evolve and still maintain its belief. I truly hope I am wrong. Because the promised land sounds like a good deal for all of my family and friends who do believe it.
Christians are the original doormats. Do good to those who persecute you. Etc. And there's a lot of etc.
Very few Christians. Ever. Lots of nominal Christians.
Why round down to 30. 31 is the closer whole number. The bible was off 4.67% in this instance. The challenge was to find scientific inconsistencies in the bible. That's one.
I wish NASA would start using 3 for PI. Would make all the calculations much easier.
Fools indeed.
True Change of heart - That's my understanding of Christianity
Infallible - I don't prescribe to that belief for several reasons.
Absolutely science can evolve. It's difficult for me to put into words what I've been trying to say. What "IF" there is a supreme being, but it's a bit different than teachings throughout the world. What "IF" it's something that we can't even comprehend at this point. What "IF" science is the key to proving it all, and will someday. Like I've said before, I see no reason what the two can't coexist.
I understand. It's difficult to explain Willy, but for me I don't describe it as a feeling . I don't use spiritual approaches unless that's the direction people want to go.
I'm fine with people not having faith. It's their choice. Just a question: Is not just as arrogant and condescending when non-believers come down on believers? My proof of God is another man's proof of big bangs, evolution, etc....I respect their beliefs. I just don't agree.
As for SFT, where did you get your training? Is it the DeShazzer SFT? Read some great research on SFT vs traditional psychotherapy and success in treating cl with MDD. Favorable numbers and for a lot less time and $.
Christians believe the original creation was without pain. The Fall brought tragedy into a world that was supposed to be all good. IMO, if one believes in God one must also believe in the antithesis, or the devil. Some crap just happens because of the results of sin entering the world. A lot happens as a result of our choices. God gave us free will.
I cannot answer for God, but I do believe He intended us to have abundant lives. That's not necessarily a happy life. IMO, it's a life with love, joy, peace, contentment......there's a difference. That stuff is pretty nice to have in dealing with the crappy stuff you mention people deal with.
Respectfully,
IMO, Christian people that say stuff like this that give God a bad name. I was standing with a friend whose wife had just died, leaving he and 3 daughters. This lady said something just like this to him. "God has a purpose for this...."
While I can't speak for God, my belief is that God never intended for crap like this to invade His creation. IMO, again, the woman should have said, "Hang in there. This is just the attempt of Evil to pull you away from and question God's love for you". .....or maybe even better, just not say anything and just love the guy.
If God gave us free will and was ok with us making bad decisions that would result in evil and our eternal damnation then why destroy his creation with a worldwide flood? If he is ok with us living in sin then why destroy sodom and Gomorrah? Why send Jesus to die for our sins? Wouldn't it have been a lot easier, with a lot less bloodshed for a loving God to, oh I don't know, never create sin in the first place? When you start to dissect this stuff it doesn't add up. If it helps you get through the day then have at it, just keep it in the church house.
It would help to, i dunno, read the first few pages of the bible if you're going to critique its content.
What you just posted is the equivalent of someone not know what a cell or carbon is and wanting to debate the validity of evolution.
Raised in church. Spent the majority of my life in church. You are the most self righteous dude on this board and I really don't want to have a discussion with you.
You're post was the equivalent of my "Asian countries" screw up. If you were raised in a church then you should know that. Even if what you posted was supposed to be the cliff notes version you left some important pieces out, and I'm not speaking from a religious pov, I'm speaking from a literary pov.
I love when people tear down an entire belief system with phrases like "leave it in the church house" which is preceded by some of the most inane drivel ever posted and questions that the answers to are clearly and briefly laid out in the first book of thr bible.
I'm sorry you had a bad experience in church because of people like me. It's pretty obvious that people like you and most in this thread want to just rip Christianity without having a fraction of knowledge of what the scripts contain compared to how much knowledge most believers have about evolution. You don't want to be called out for your ignorance, you just want your group think posse to run roughshod over those you don't agree with.
Oh... But you read the passage where it says not to eat shellfish, so you got it all figured out.................
I disagree. I'm pointing out my problems with the metanarrative. It doesn't make sense to me. Why destroy the world with a flood when you could have prevented your screw up in the first place? Why give people free will if you're just going to tear the whole thing down when they screw it up? Why send your son to die for the sins of the people when you could prevent suffering all along? It's all ******** and dumb as hell.
Boss,
It would be interesting to know what kind of environment you encountered in your church experiences. Obviously, it wasn't good.
[QUOTE="ram1955, post: 4368084, member: 12644"Lots of good questions and I don't have a ton of answers. He didn't create sin.][/QUOTE]
If God created everything but not sin, then does sin actually exist?
If God created everything but not sin, then does sin actually exist?