When Tre hits perimeter shots you cannot beat us, bottom line. The past few games (yes I know Zion is out) we have truly played 4 vs 5 on the offensive end because teams are refusing to guard him. He’s a great player, but for us to win it all he needs to get his perimeter stroke going. Goodnight.
Tre has to hit shots...
- Thread starter 2 skerz 3_rivals208847
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I disagree. Tre needs to stop taking shots. This team is tough to beat when they play to their strengths. And Tre shooting is not one of our strengths.
Until Zion gets back, the best way to accomplish this is more minutes and shots for O'Connell and Baker, less minutes for Jack White and DeLaurier.
then he needs to have more assists...5 isnt enough if you are not scoring yourself...should be in double digits.He needs a wingman to score too....who is our scoring guard?
I think we are at our best when Tre doesn’t have to shoot. When he can focus on running the offense and playing intense D.
Great responses to this thread so thank you for the dialogue. Those of you that say he shouldn’t shoot I disagree to a point. In the dance, teams are going to just pack it in on Zion and RJ and as great as those 2 are we are going to have to have someone besides Cam be a threat from 3. Is the GOAT willing to give up defense amd rebounding with Jack to play a sniper in AOC? Will be interesting to watch the GOAT be the GOAT over the next month. Buckle up!
Even then, he has to hit a few shots to keep defenses honest. If he's WIDE open, then he has to knock that shot down. It isn't that he needs to make more of the highly contested shots he's taking. Or that he needs to take fewer of the highly contested shots.
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His shots aren't highly contested. Or even all that lightly contested. He bricked some bunnies tonight.
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If the opposing D won't guard him, he has to make shots until they start guarding him. That will open up the defense so that RJ, Zion, et al can attack the rim.
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An offense can't function very well if the PG can't make shots. We lit up Duval for this last year. But Tre is getting a pass. Heck, his Defense hasn't been that good for a few weeks.
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He simply has to make shots if the other team won't guard him. Tyus would have had 40 vs that defense tonight.
We have no identity right now. Roles are still changing. All year Tre hasn’t really had to make shots. His mindset is not to score. So now his mentality has to change and shooting isn’t his strong point. It’ll take time for him to become comfortable as a scorer/shooter. He’s making his free throws though. Only person whose role hasn’t changed is RJ. Everyone else is changing and trying to overcompensate for Zion being out. I’m not worried about this squad until we lose again at full strength
Have you not seen the stat lines that the ppl Tre guard has been? His man is not the one beating us at all.
No, we’ll win it all if Tre doesn’t ever shoot again from behind the arc. The Celtics didn’t need Rondo to jack up 3’s for a championship.
I love “ESPN opinions”....They say something and the garbage just flows here instantly haha. Seth “they’re not guarding Tre”.....
Looks like they’re just saggin the paint to me.
Looks like they’re just saggin the paint to me.
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Any guard has to be able to hit wide open threes.
Tre going 1-4 from 3 in a game is not the end of the world to me.The thing that is missing is that midrange game he played so well in the first half of the season. He's taking the right shots, K is even drawing some plays up for him (see early in the second half of the Syracuse game). Some he has missed badly. Others have been halfway down and came out. I am perfectly fine with him taking 7-9 shots per game in the flow of the game.
His turnovers are up considerably recently too which is compounding the problem. Maybe it's the ole' freshman wall. I don't know, but we need a strong PG, and we have one. He will figure it out.
It is pretty clear Duke as a team is not getting out in transition or turning teams over the way they were in the first 15 or so games. Having to score primarily in the halfcourt has made a huge difference, and I think as a team we are struggling a little bit to adjust recently, especially in the last three games without Zion.
His turnovers are up considerably recently too which is compounding the problem. Maybe it's the ole' freshman wall. I don't know, but we need a strong PG, and we have one. He will figure it out.
It is pretty clear Duke as a team is not getting out in transition or turning teams over the way they were in the first 15 or so games. Having to score primarily in the halfcourt has made a huge difference, and I think as a team we are struggling a little bit to adjust recently, especially in the last three games without Zion.
Coach knows infinitely more than all of us put together and multiplied 1000 times, but it just seems really clear that Alex needs Jack's minutes. I think the primary detractor there is Alex's defense, but increased game reps and minutes are what is going to improve that, and his ceiling is higher than Jack's. What he does, flaws included, is more valuable to the team right now than what Jack is bringing. Jack is a great kid that works his butt off, but the numbers are the numbers.
Jack still hasn’t hit a shot but he made a lot of solid plays last night. He finished a couple plays around the rim, he grabbed 5 rebounds, some which extended possessions for us. Yes it’s easy to say Alex should take his minutes, it’s clear for us to see Alex’s shooting. But for every made 3 by Alex I could point out a tough bucket around the rim or a rebound that gave us another shot by Jack. Alex adds shooting, nothing else. So it’s not as black and white as some think. Our defense was putrid last night which is Alex’s biggest weakness. Given that I personally would have played him more, if the alternative wasn’t getting stops either. But I’m not going to bash every little thing Coach decides either.
Since when does a loss @ Tech trigger such a doom and gloom atmosphere. They are a well coached team that executed a very specific gameplan last night to almost perfection. They found the right shot, they made open 3’s and they didn’t turn the ball over. They played a sharp game and were home. Tip your cap and move on.
If we haven’t yet noticed we are never going to be the same dominant team when we are missing one of our top guys. There’s nothing we can do about it now, we don’t gameplan throughout the year for injuries. We have done our best to tread water and hopefully Zion will be back Saturday. We are fragile, we can’t afford injuries, the secret is out on us.
Lastly everyone wants to bash K because we don’t develop our bench and it shows when we suffer injuries throughout the year. Well think about the talent we bring in each year. When you have a Jahlil or Tyus or or Tatum or Bagley or Carter or Zion or RJ they are going to be the focal part of your offense all game every game. Those are the guys that give us the best chance to win. The consequence to that is that the secondary guys are not going to get the same opportunities that they would at UNC or some school that doesn’t have one and done guys. You can’t have it both ways. You ask a coach to do a job and win games and put the best product on the floor and that is what K has done. It just so happens the margin between our best players and our role players are wider than any other program out there. You don’t run an offense through Jack White when you have a Marvin Bagley. You don’t run an offense through Alex when you have RJ. If you want to look at why we find ourselves in this position you first look at injuries then look at our one and done system. We get the best talent each year, we play it.
I don’t think it’s as simple as “we need scoring, put Alex in for Jack.” Without Zion, we just aren’t a great rebounding team. Overall team defense takes a huge hit as well because Zion cleans up so much with his help defense. Jack is significantly better than Alex in both those areas. We would be at a serious size and athleticism disadvantage yesterday with him in for a lot more minutes than Jack. I think when Zion gets back, he cleans up a lot of those issues so hopefully Alex will be able to get some more run.
Is that your perception of what I did? That seems an overreaction and a mischaracterization.
The doom and gloom is because of how bad we looked without Zion. Last night we looked like Kobe's Lakers. Put the ball in the hands of our best player and hope he can win by himself. When Zion gets back, I have a feeling we go back to being the Kobe-Shaq Lakers.
Did I reply to your message or call you out by name? Did you read the gameday thread? If not please do and claim that people aren’t bashing K.
Edit: Sorry I actually did reply to your thread. The first part of my comment was in response to yours. Not the balance, my apologies.
How about that chase down block that Jack made last night. It was Zionesque!! I still support Jack being on the court for 15 minutes a game. His 3's looked better last night. They just aren't going down.
Please can we have no more injuries and illness moving forward? I didn't see K's post game presser, did he mention that others on the team were ill last night?
Alan
Please can we have no more injuries and illness moving forward? I didn't see K's post game presser, did he mention that others on the team were ill last night?
Alan
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Very much so. Scroll up a few posts.
I know people are being reactionary and over the top. I'm not one of them. My only point was that after Alex's absolutely vital role in beating Syracuse, I was surprised he didn't get more minutes last night. I know he is more useful against a team that guards the way Syracuse does vs. the way VT does, but he did hit his only two threes, and the floor was so congested last night. Jack brings the things Alex doesn't, and vice versa. Maybe some of the brilliant minds at the university can find a way to combine them into one player. Jackex O-White, can defend, rebound, and not be 0-28.
Sorry my edit crossed over with your response. I went on a rant and I forgot about what I responded to before I started my rant. The K bashing was not you.
True. But he hasn't been the disruptive force leading to TOs either.
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This board needs to be better at making nuanced evaluations. It isn't an either/or situation. The options aren't great and horrible. There are a whole host of ranges.
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Lately, Tre has been OK on defense. Not horrible. But not elite either.
I missed the part where their best player lit us up. Because he was on the bench. So, Duke was missing its best player, and VT was missing its best player.
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A national title team needs to win that game. Losing to a very good UNC team without Zion, especially when he goes down immediately, is understandable. Losing to a VT team that didn't really have any wins vs the top of the ACC, a VT team that is lacking its best player (and PG to boot), is not understandable. There is a melt down because cracks are beginning to appear, and those cracks are becoming chasms.
Teams aren't guarding Tre beyond the foul line. This is how our offense became "stoppable" last year, teams wouldn't even acknowledge Duval. This is a problem. Tre needs to make teams pay, he isn't a terrible shooter, he's just in a funk.
As far as the defense....I think Tre is fine, teams are literally game-planning to avoid having Tre guard the ball-handler, that is a win for Duke.
Zion makes our defense that much better.
Last night....there were 2 or 3 "gettable" steals when a guy comes around a screen and Zion just attacks the ball-handler and it's a dunk the other way. Javin fouled the guy twice, and Jack just straight got beat. With Zion in the game, that is 6 easy Duke points.
As far as the defense....I think Tre is fine, teams are literally game-planning to avoid having Tre guard the ball-handler, that is a win for Duke.
Zion makes our defense that much better.
Last night....there were 2 or 3 "gettable" steals when a guy comes around a screen and Zion just attacks the ball-handler and it's a dunk the other way. Javin fouled the guy twice, and Jack just straight got beat. With Zion in the game, that is 6 easy Duke points.
There is little history of this team without Zion. Until he is back, the team is just trying to figure out what works. Tre should shoot the shot when he has an open look. Surprised and not surprised by the ebb and flow of confidence of this young team. When Zion returns, I hope for normalcy.
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If he hadn't dove for that ball, we win that Syracuse game and are still tied for first in the conf, with the tie breaker to get the 1 seed in the tourney. When we play UNC on Friday, with UVA looming on Saturday, we'll revisit a lot of snarky comments. Most of this board won't like the long term implications, I fear.Unless in regards to diving on the floor.
What exactly has baker shown so far? Absolutely nothing...don't know why people think he should get more PT...because he was good in HS? Lol
Fantastic point about Tre vis a vis Duval.
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As for point 2, it is also very salient. Teams have game planned to take Tre's defense out of the equation. Or, rather, to lessen his impact. Problem is, by taking his D out of the equation, it puts more onus on his offense. And not just team running, which is only OK in the half court (more on this later), but mostly his shooting. We could live with Tre's bad shooting when he was disrupting the other team's offense. Now that opponents have found a way to severely limit his defensive impact, we are left with mediocre half court PG play, and sub 25% perimeter shooting.
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A note about his half court team running. It isn't great. He's not horrible, just not great. And that isn't entirely, or even mostly, his fault. It is the entire team's fault. We are so bad at perimeter shooting that teams are packing it in on us. Magic, Cousy, nor Hurley could effectively find guys vs D's packed into the paint this tightly. He can't make passes in the half court to get guys good looks because there are no passing lanes. There is no space for the ball to get to guys.
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Frankly, for a few weeks now, our O has been all hero ball. When Zion, RJ, and Cam (in that order) go hero ball, it works. Hero ball is only bad when the guy misses shots. It looks pretty good when Kobe, or KD, or Harden go hero mode. Zion and RJ and Cam can succeed at hero ball because they are largely unstoppable no matter how crowded the paint is SO LONG AS ALL THREE ARE ON THE COURT. But teams are just collapsing on guys when they take the ball into the lane. Vs Zion it rarely works. It is more successful vs RJ, but he is still going to score a poop ton of points. Cam's hero ball doesn't work driving the ball, but he can make jumpers from all over the court. But take one of the big 3 out, and the hero ball gets less effective because that is one more guy that can collapse on whoever has the ball.
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It was in another thread after the UNC loss. We simply have to make more threes. We don't have to become a 40% team. But we need to get to 33% or we probably can't win the title. Tre, Cam, Jack, and AOC have to take deep breaths, and start making 3s consistently. That will open up the paint, which will allow Tre to begin excelling in the half court again. If not, we are in trouble.
Ditto. What about 1 badly missed three, and one air ball that missed by about 5 feet, has led people to believe that he's this perimeter sniper? HS evaluations called him a good shooter, but not an elite one. We want him to be a shooter, and some folks that advocated playing him as opposed to RSing him, did so because they argued that his shooting would be necessary this year. If they admit now that he's not a great shooter, then they have to admit they were wrong from the word jump, which goes against human inclination. Regardless, we've seen nothing to indicate that he's any sort of legit threat to make threes.
I get what you’re saying but he’s had like 3 minutes of playing time. It’s hard to prove what you can do in that time. Plus he’ll sit for like the whole half and come in at the end for a minute. It’s hard to get in a rhythm when you’ve sat for 15-18 minutes and then you get in for a whopping minute and a half
Because Coach K has said that Baker has been shooting well in practice, to the point that he decided to burn his redshirt. That's a significant decision. So Coach K has made it quite clear that Baker has shown enough to contribute. And he was recruited to Duke in the first place because perimeter shooting is a strength of his.
So I completely disagree with you. Sure, he's shown nothing in 5 minutes of game play. But that's not a lot of time for any bench player to show anything.
Ok that's fine...everyone has their opinion...we just disagree to an extent