Will UK ever be consistently relevant?

[BBBLazing]

I posted this last week in an obscure thread and no one gave thoughts about it. Reading the discussion about WKU and Brohm made me want to repost it and see if anyone had thoughts about it.

I'm coming around to the thought that there are only 2 ways that we can ever get out of the cellar in the SEC:

1. Give an unproven coach like Stoops that is recruiting much better talent here a significant amount of time to build this program from the bottom up. I mean 7-9 years to get enough lineman that we have talent 2-3 deep on both sides of the line. We can always get a few skill players that make a difference, and have seemed to consistently have some of this talent, but we never have enough big guys to compete against SEC teams and control the line of scrimmage.

2. Go pay a ridiculous amount (and it would have to be ridiculous) to talk a name like Saban or Parcells or something really stupid to come here. The number would have to be twice what anyone else would pay them just to get them here. Once we get them, we would have to lock them down in a contract that they have to stay for x number of years or give all the money back. This is not likely to ever happen because such a deal could never be struck, but that is one way that I think we could get out of where we are.

 

[Myotis]

Even though Stoops is recruiting better than anyone else at UK in the last 40 years, it's still weaker than the whole rest of the SEC save Vandy. So unless he starts channeling Vince Lombardi very soon, it's not going to make much if any difference. Right now he's probably recruiting at least some on pure name recognition but the recruiting will quickly plateau or even tank if UK doesn't post a winning season in the conference soon. The best players are never going to come here just to get crushed week in week out.
As for the second scenario, never gonna happen.

 

[buster3.0]

No

 

[richbrookstomato]

To become "relevant", UK Football will have to play a disciplined, mistake free brand of football. We will always be near the bottom in the SEC recruiting rankings, so our coaching staff will have to use a system that runs like a machine. Missouri proved that you can win the SEC east without consistent top 20 ranked recruiting classes.

Can coach Stoops provide us with this type of system?

 

[CHAMPCAT11]

To become "relevant", UK Football will have to play a disciplined, mistake free brand of football. We will always be near the bottom in the SEC recruiting rankings, so our coaching staff will have to use a system that runs like a machine. Missouri proved that you can win the SEC east without consistent top 20 ranked recruiting classes.

Can coach Stoops provide us with this type of system?

Absolutely no chance.

 

[Woodrow24]

To become "relevant", UK Football will have to play a disciplined, mistake free brand of football. We will always be near the bottom in the SEC recruiting rankings, so our coaching staff will have to use a system that runs like a machine. Missouri proved that you can win the SEC east without consistent top 20 ranked recruiting classes.

Can coach Stoops provide us with this type of system?

That's exactly right.

 

[KentuckyWildcat4Life]

Not until someone of authority pulls out their balls and makes a smart decision.

 

[birdie king]

To become "relevant", UK Football will have to play a disciplined, mistake free brand of football. We will always be near the bottom in the SEC recruiting rankings, so our coaching staff will have to use a system that runs like a machine. Missouri proved that you can win the SEC east without consistent top 20 ranked recruiting classes.

Can coach Stoops provide us with this type of system?

Mizzou is finished. Players threatening to boycott fiasco and settling for the assistant coach :thumbsdown:. They are a dumpster fire.

 

[BBBLazing]

Even though Stoops is recruiting better than anyone else at UK in the last 40 years, it's still weaker than the whole rest of the SEC save Vandy. So unless he starts channeling Vince Lombardi very soon, it's not going to make much if any difference. Right now he's probably recruiting at least some on pure name recognition but the recruiting will quickly plateau or even tank if UK doesn't post a winning season in the conference soon. The best players are never going to come here just to get crushed week in week out.
As for the second scenario, never gonna happen.

So, we can't become relevant recruiting the 12th best in the conference? That is the best we will ever do I'm afraid. Everyone that uses Vandy or Mizzou as examples of how you can do it ignore the fact that they win for a few years, then drop back to the bottom. I am talking about consistently becoming relevant. I've seen UK win when Curci cheated. I've seen us win when Mumme cheated. I've seen us go to bowls when Brooks scheduled us into them. I'm talking about actually becoming relevant nationally consistently. I think we can do that with a top 25 recruiting class. But we have to develop the line and have 2-3 deep there. If we do that, qbs and rbs will want to come and play behind them, and linebackers and dbs will want to play behind them. But it is tough to ask linebackers and dbs to play behind a line that gets no push and to ask qbs and rbs to play behind lines that can't block.

 

[UKWildcats#8]

Consistently relevant? Doubtful. We have done a good job at being consistently irrelevant for most of our history though sadly.

 

[rmattox]

I love Ky Football more than anything else in all of sports. It pains me to say, IMO, the answer is "no". We will never be consistently relevant. We will never be a perennial championship competitor like Bama or even Auburn, LSU, UGA, UT, Fla, etc... We're in the wrong conference. I do think we CAN be consistently competitive.

As much as it pains me to do so, I'll once again use a bball analogy. What if you were asked if Ole Miss will ever be consistently relevant in bball (compared to Ky/ competing for championships, etc...)? They will have an occasional good year, but consistently they will be marginal at best and will never be the equal of a Ky.

 

[Pulaski Cat Fan_rivals377587]

It depends on just how serious and committed the administration is. UK needs to pay top dollar across the staff, and not to just any staff, I mean top notch coaches. Our recruiting budget needs to be near tops in the nation, since our recruiting base is not enough to sustain success. Kentucky should have a recruiting budget on part with Tennessee if at all possible. The powers to be have to decide that what we have done historically is not good enough and changes and total commitment to the program must be made.

 

[rmattox]

It depends on just how serious and committed the administration is. UK needs to pay top dollar across the staff, and not to just any staff, I mean top notch coaches. Our recruiting budget needs to be near tops in the nation, since our recruiting base is not enough to sustain success. Kentucky should have a recruiting budget on part with Tennessee if at all possible. The powers to be have to decide that what we have done historically is not good enough and changes and total commitment to the program must be made.

The per roster spot recruiting budget for Football should be equal to the per roster spot budget for bball. If that means dropping other, non-revenue sports for the time being, so be it. If Ky were to ever have a nationally competitive Football team, money would not be an issue. They'd have enough to fund all non-revenue sports.

 

[bthaunert]

It depends on just how serious and committed the administration is. UK needs to pay top dollar across the staff, and not to just any staff, I mean top notch coaches. Our recruiting budget needs to be near tops in the nation, since our recruiting base is not enough to sustain success. Kentucky should have a recruiting budget on part with Tennessee if at all possible. The powers to be have to decide that what we have done historically is not good enough and changes and total commitment to the program must be made.

People always bring up money for coaches. Money isn't going to solve problem. Stoops pay is within $500,000 of being a top 20 paying job in college football. It's within $1,000,000 of being a top 10 paying job. Paying $1,000,000 more per year for a coach is not going top bring a top 10, or even top 20 coach because of our history. There will always be a lot of better options out there when we are looking for a coach. Unless you want to pay Saban type dollars and get a guy nowhere near worth Saban type dollars, it's not going to work.

I have posted many times that the only way we ever become relevant for a sustainable period is if we do a few things IMO:

1. Think outside the box when it comes to offense. IMO, we will never have the talent to compete head to head on a consistent basis with the big boys in conference (don't even tell me about Vandy and Mizzou, when they have done it for 10 years straight, then I will listen).

2. We have to have something that make us recognizable to recruits. Something that defines Kentucky football. Something that when Kentucky is mentioned, even the most casual fan, or wife of a fan says, "Oh yeah, that's the team that _____". Oregon did it with uniforms. Boise State did it with a blue field. What can UK do that can make them stand out to anyone and everyone?

3. We have to get a commitment from the University to consistently make bond debt available every 10 years to continue major improvements on our facilities. I think if the AD promised to always carry bond debt for academic building construction, it is possible. Once the money is paid off for the science building, take on another $50+ million in bond debt for another academic building in exchange for taking bond debt money to upgrade football facilities every 10 years.

 

[rmattox]

Good post, bt. I agree with everything you say. Kentucky will never win in Football trying to do it the way Bama does it. We will NEVER beat them at their own game. We need to be creative from the look of the uniforms all the way to the scheme on the field. If I was a great Football player, why would I come to KY? We need something that sets us apart from everyone else.

 

[Bluetick2100]

. We have to have something that make us recognizable to recruits. Something that defines Kentucky football. Something that when Kentucky is mentioned, even the most casual fan, or wife of a fan says, "Oh yeah, that's the team that _____". Oregon did it with uniforms. Boise State did it with a blue field. What can UK do that can make them stand out to anyone and everyone?

I'm thinking some beer drinking monkey's would make us recognizable.
Maybe some trick ponies and clowns.
Better chance with the circus acts than ever getting a Saban like coach to come to this graveyard.

 

[bthaunert]

The per roster spot recruiting budget for Football should be equal to the per roster spot budget for bball. If that means dropping other, non-revenue sports for the time being, so be it. If Ky were to ever have a nationally competitive Football team, money would not be an issue. They'd have enough to fund all non-revenue sports.

Not going to happen...not feasible. We spent $500,000 on recruiting. Basketball spent $400,000. For basketball, that is a price tag of $100,000 per player. No way we are going to spend $2.2 million/year on recruiting when the highest in the nation (Tennessee) spends $1.3 million. I could see doubling it, but no way we are going to budget almost twice as much money as any other school for a recruiting budget.

As for dropping sports. It's never going to happen, so not even worth discussing.

 

[NCukcat62]

No. But we should have expectations to go at least 6-6 7-5 every year. Anything else is really unacceptable as of now. But we will NEVER compete consistently. Sorry if that upsets some.

 

[rmattox]

Not going to happen...not feasible. We spent $500,000 on recruiting. Basketball spent $400,000. For basketball, that is a price tag of $100,000 per player. No way we are going to spend $2.2 million/year on recruiting when the highest in the nation (Tennessee) spends $1.3 million. I could see doubling it, but no way we are going to budget almost twice as much money as any other school for a recruiting budget.

As for dropping sports. It's never going to happen, so not even worth discussing.

I understand. In overstating my position, I'm essentially saying Football needs to become the priority at Ky just as it is at the schools around the country that are recognized as athletic powers. Since it won't become the #1 priority, we're stuck to languish in a state of less than mediocrity. It would be realistic to expect a recruiting budget as high as Tennessee's. Personally, if it took scrapping the rest of the athletic program to make Football a power, I'd be for it. Even then, it would take years to get turned around. Fortunately, it's not necessary.

Respectfully,
A Football Fan

 

[NavyCat88]

We can, but a chain of events is necessary rather than a single event:

1. You need an AD who can make a good FB HC hire through use of marketing, research, a search committee, interviews, & background checks.
2. The newly hired FB HC needs (IMO) past D1 FBS or FCS HC experience (e.g. Other P5, MAC, SunBelt, SOCON, CAA).....complete with a reputation for strong fundamentals, program management, and good recruiting.
3. The newly hired HC needs to apply his experience in pursuit of a staff that is competent and has a past history of FB coaching success, recruiting prowess, etc.
4. The newly hired HC and newly hired staff need to coach fundamentally sound FB, prepare and game plan the team to take advantage of matchups, beat the majority of the teams they're supposed to beat, defeat a team or two each year they're not expected to beat.
5. The newly hired HC and newly hired staff needs to recruit well and improve recruiting incrementally over time.
6. #4 feeds improvement in #5, and #5 feeds improvement in #4 leading to an upward trajectory for the program overall.
7. After demonstrated success in coaching (winning seasons, bowl appearances, good recruiting, +.500 in the SEC), AD should incentivize the HC to remain at UK, BUT always have an eye on the HC landscape in case the newly hired, newly successful HC takes a higher profile job.

IMHO, we presently have only #5 of the seven requirements covered at this time.

 

[BigBlueCatNation]

I posted this last week in an obscure thread and no one gave thoughts about it. Reading the discussion about WKU and Brohm made me want to repost it and see if anyone had thoughts about it.

I'm coming around to the thought that there are only 2 ways that we can ever get out of the cellar in the SEC:

1. Give an unproven coach like Stoops that is recruiting much better talent here a significant amount of time to build this program from the bottom up. I mean 7-9 years to get enough lineman that we have talent 2-3 deep on both sides of the line. We can always get a few skill players that make a difference, and have seemed to consistently have some of this talent, but we never have enough big guys to compete against SEC teams and control the line of scrimmage.

2. Go pay a ridiculous amount (and it would have to be ridiculous) to talk a name like Saban or Parcells or something really stupid to come here. The number would have to be twice what anyone else would pay them just to get them here. Once we get them, we would have to lock them down in a contract that they have to stay for x number of years or give all the money back. This is not likely to ever happen because such a deal could never be struck, but that is one way that I think we could get out of where we are.

Yes they could, but it all depends on Kentucky's administration

 

[bigbluegrog]

I love Ky Football more than anything else in all of sports. It pains me to say, IMO, the answer is "no". We will never be consistently relevant. We will never be a perennial championship competitor like Bama or even Auburn, LSU, UGA, UT, Fla, etc... We're in the wrong conference. I do think we CAN be consistently competitive.

As much as it pains me to do so, I'll once again use a bball analogy. What if you were asked if Ole Miss will ever be consistently relevant in bball (compared to Ky/ competing for championships, etc...)? They will have an occasional good year, but consistently they will be marginal at best and will never be the equal of a Ky.

IMO, consistently competitive means consistently relevant. And I think I could be content with being consistently competitive. Unlike many others, I do think it "could" happen here if we can just get over the hump. Success breeds success. The ones that say it can't EVER happen have basically given up on the program. I wish they would start following Bama.

 

[TeoJ]

Yes

 

[Xception]

The sec wasn't always this good , it's currently in a unprecedented high mark . Right now is the worst time to make a move up for a historically bad program . The sec will not maintain this level of play , it's an abnormality that will shift and elite players will disperse throughout the nation once again . UK will have a window at that point to make a move if we are in position to do so . But consistently , no .

 

[WildCard]

UK annually plays at least 4 schools which consider football, to quote Merle Haggard, "...the biggest thing on campus". Those programs have enormous fan support and resources not the least of which is an abundance of in state talent. That is not the case in Lexington. Having a large in state talent pool that will attend State U regardless of circumstances is an extraordinary advantage in maintaing a "consistently relevant" program. In fact, ND is about the only "consistently relevant" program that achieves this status without a strong in state base. And you can make a pretty strong argument that "football ain't the biggest thing on campus".

Becoming relevant presumably means transitioning from a consistently losing program to one that "consistently" wins 7 or 8 games a year (more when some exceptional talent passes through). So if you don't have a strong in state talent base what is necessary to become "relevant"?

Recruiting is certainly important but without consistent in state talent it will likely be inconsistent over time. Or at least until a "consistently relevant" program perception has been established.
And since UK will be at a "recruiting disadvantage" with many of its' annual opponents I think it more important to win with the guys you do recruit.

Some will disagree but I believe the absolute first step is to find a coach that can consistently "do more with less". Sure, you could get in a bidding war with AL for Saban, but this is a totally unrealistic scenario. Doing more with less basically translates to winning the ones you are supposed to win plus 1 or 2 you are not supposed to win. So is CMS that guy? I don't know but he has not shown it yet. All, of course, JMO.

Peace

 

[LowCountryCat]

Not until Barney gets replaced by an AD that actually gives a crap about football.

 

[catfootballfan]

Not until Barney gets replaced by an AD that actually gives a crap about football.

I AGREE!!!!!!

 

[NoDef]

We have closed the gap in recruiting a little. We are still near the bottom of the SEC, but playing with the #25 class against a top 10 class gives you a lot better chance than coming in with the #65 class. Stoops has got it right in that part. He is close to the ceiling in that aspect with us being located in Kentucky. Stoops is doing right by trying to get kids from the north to come play at the closest SEC school. Very few players are going to make the league and location is sometimes a deal breaker in them choosing a school, so us being the farthest north SEC school is one of the few advantages we have over the other SEC schools for northern kids.

We are eventually going to have to start winning some of these home games against the better SEC programs. We have a terrible time beating the traditional giants (worse than even Vandy). We have to get a couple of them at home every once in a while. Have to get to the point where Vandy, USC, Miss. St, Missouri, are almost automatic home wins and be good enough to get one or two of them on the road.. Commonwealth has to produce wins against middle of the pack below teams and pull at least one upset a year. You get three automatic wins a year and when the middle of the pack ACC birds come to town that should be another win.

Even with the recruiting in place you are still going to have to have the right coach to ever have any hope in getting 9-10 win teams. We will never be at the point to where we are going to out talent much more than 50% of our schedule. There are teams out there beating other teams with better recruiting rankings. If we use that excuse at Kentucky we will be a loser in most games. We are going to have to have better coaches, teaching better fundamentals and winning with players not as highly touted as the opponent in most games. Might have to hire a coach with a little baggage to ever make that happen or maybe get lucky and Stoops might turn it around. .

 

[SanAntonioCat_rivals376502]

Even though Stoops is recruiting better than anyone else at UK in the last 40 years, it's still weaker than the whole rest of the SEC save Vandy. So unless he starts channeling Vince Lombardi very soon, it's not going to make much if any difference. Right now he's probably recruiting at least some on pure name recognition but the recruiting will quickly plateau or even tank if UK doesn't post a winning season in the conference soon. The best players are never going to come here just to get crushed week in week out.
As for the second scenario, never gonna happen.

At least the issues of campus renovation, dedicated football facilities, upgraded CWS and the current Taj Mahal of recruiting rooms are finally in place or soon will be.

 

[Mountain air]

Not just yes but heck yes! We just have to find the right HC and then be willing to pay him to keep him here after he has success.

 

[NoDef]

Not just yes but heck yes! We just have to find the right HC and then be willing to pay him to keep him here after he has success.

I really wish I shared that enthusiasm. I've been watching this thing since the early 80s and just getting to a bowl game has been a challenge. Especially no excuse now not to not go bowling since they added the extra game. We have not even had a head coach that even has to turn down other jobs. Baylor was crazy enough to pay Guy Morris and that ended up just delaying them in getting to national prominence a little faster.

Serious question. We know this has been a graveyard for head coaches, but outside of Leach how many of the assistants on any of our previous staffs have went on to have success as a head coach?

 

[VikingsCat]

I had my hopes up for this to happen around 2018-2019. Now, I don't see it happening. To turn UK into a consistently relevant program you need consistent fan support. This year proved that many fans are sunshine fans and bailed on the team when they lost a couple of games. No HC will ever have time to rebuild and develop UK into a top program with our inconsistent fan support. We had our chance and it got spoiled this year.

 

[NoDef]

I had my hopes up for this to happen around 2018-2019. Now, I don't see it happening. To turn UK into a consistently relevant program you need consistent fan support. This year proved that many fans are sunshine fans and bailed on the team when they lost a couple of games. No HC will ever have time to rebuild and develop UK into a top program with our inconsistent fan support. We had our chance and it got spoiled this year.

Fan support has NEVER been a problem at UK. If anything the fans support might have set the program back more than we have helped it. UK might actually have the best fan support of any program close to it if you compare on the field results. We probably easily lead the nation in number of fans/per win if they measured something like that. Our programs problems have been lack of support from the UNIVERSITY and bad or just average coaching hires.

 

[Mountain air]

I really wish I shared that enthusiasm. I've been watching this thing since the early 80s and just getting to a bowl game has been a challenge. Especially no excuse now not to not go bowling since they added the extra game. We have not even had a head coach that even has to turn down other jobs. Baylor was crazy enough to pay Guy Morris and that ended up just delaying them in getting to national prominence a little faster.

Serious question. We know this has been a graveyard for head coaches, but outside of Leach how many of the assistants on any of our previous staffs have went on to have success as a head coach?

You have to go back before my time. Coach Collier had some what turned out to be big names as assistants on his staffs, Shula, Schnellenberger, Knox and Arnsparger. That's some serious coach's right there. Sadly Collier was fired because fans were complaining. My dad told me KY people were mad because he wasn't recruiting KY kids. Funny how that one thing has been and still is an issue for all these years. KY fans, at least the ones from KY, always want to see local kids.

I do believe the right AD will find the right HC and do what it takes to get and keep them in place with the right staff.

I also believe Stoops isn't the right HC. I think he was a good DC but just doesn't have the right mindset to be a great HC and we need a great HC.