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NCAA admits WMU should have won game, and I'm more confused than ever...

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Dawgzilla2

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So, the FBS oversight committee says the officials in the UM game should have ended the game after the first Hail Mary. Cool.

But it also says there WAS 1 second left on the stadium clock, but that the officials should have relied on the clock in the NBC video...so what clock was NBC showing?

Let me just add, I always thought the stadium clock was unofficial. The refs are always telling the clock operator to change the time on the clock, and that is without using replay. So there must be some other way to keep time. But right after the controversy, all I read were people in the industry saying the stadium clock IS the offical clock. So...now we have to count on the broadcasters to keep accurate time???
 
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8dog

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Dawgzilla2 said:

So, the FBS oversight committee says the officials in the UM game should have ended the game after the first Hail Mary. Cool.

But it also says there WAS 1 second left on the stadium clock, but that the officials should have relied on the clock in the NBC video...so what clock was NBC showing?

Let me just add, I always thought the stadium clock was unofficial. The refs are always telling the clock operator to change the time on the clock, and that is without using replay. So there must be some other way to keep time. But right after the controversy, all I read were people in the industry saying the stadium clock IS the offical clock. So...now we have to count on the broadcasters to keep accurate time???
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The stadium clock is the official clock unless you have to go to replay to determine the time. At that point, you use the embedded clock in the TV feed. What no one can seem to do is explain exactly what that is or how it’s calibrated to the stadium clock- if it is at all. But if that’s not available- and apparently it wasn’t, you use the TV graphic. But agree that no one has done a good job laying out the logistics of how these clocks normallly work.
 
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L4Dawg

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Shouldn't WMU now be given the win? That actually happened in a MHSAA playoff game a few years ago. A rule misinterpreted led to Leland getting another play that they shouldn't have had. Leland scored on that play and beat Walnut. Walnut appealed. 3-4 days later the MHSAA disallowed the final play and awarded the win to Walnut.
 
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ckDOG

ckDOG

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The entire situation has been a cluster of bad information and communication. Did NBC ever come back and admit they were wrong and misled the viewers? It wasn't intentional but that was the result. I was fired up after the game bc they were confident their camera view of the clock was correct. It wasn't. There was a tick left.
 
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RBcoach

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Dawgbite said:
If the outcome were reversed they would have reversed the outcome claiming playoff implications or some BS. The haves and the have nots.
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By rule they can't reverse the outcome has been determined by the officials declaring the game over.
 
mstateglfr

mstateglfr

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If Michigan wins it all at the end of the season, an * can be placed next to their name, and the 10 Western Michigan fans can point to that * whenever their grandchildren are visiting and they force the kids to sit and listen for the 30th time to how mighty Western Michigan was screwed over on September 5th 2026.
 
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o_Hot Rock

o_Hot Rock

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The NFL has a defined rule saying the clock we see on TV must be the official clock used. The college game adapted that rule but never formalized it in the rule book.

NCAA has since that game added a rule specifically stating which clock must be used. This gives Michigan more ammo to say hey, no rule before and now there is a rule, I did nothing wrong. But it should not matter as it was established as passed practice and is still enforceable. This was not some obscure thing, people know which clock is supposed to be used. Yes, there are separate timers that are used in case of malfunctions etc...

The NCAA could overturn the game based on common practices and dare Michigan to fight it. NCAA has a standing policy of final game scores not being overturned no matter how right or wrong. There have been other games that were just as bad as this one where it costs teams games.

I am sure Michigan knows all this but I am not sure if it was a spur of the moment decision or they had a one time get out jail free card in their pocket. I think when it happened, they just thought no one will notice but it could have easily been sitting on this to use as needed.

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Seinfeld

Seinfeld

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ckDOG said:
The entire situation has been a cluster of bad information and communication. Did NBC ever come back and admit they were wrong and misled the viewers? It wasn't intentional but that was the result. I was fired up after the game bc they were confident their camera view of the clock was correct. It wasn't. There was a tick left.
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The whole thing absolutely reeks of a child lying and then having to repeatedly lie afterwards in order to protect himself from the first lie
 
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The Peeper

The Peeper

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I bet there will be unlimited numbers of t-shirts made by vendors in Michigan all season long concerning this topic. Screen printers will make a fortune
 
GloryDawg

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It will be a moot point in the end. They will lose at least four games. They are an average team. Also, OU offense is not good either.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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So the rule is, use whatever clock the broadcaster uses, whether it is official or not? That....doesn't sound like a good rule. And I still want to know what clock NBC was showing embedded in its replays, since it must not have been a stadium clock?

As far as the game itself, I agree the outcome of the game should not be reversed. That would just open up a dispute over any game that ended in controversy. But the playoff committee, pollsters, and computer ranking systems are free to count it as a loss if they want to.
 
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RocketDawg

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And they did. They should go back and change it to an L for Michigan, and a W for Western Michigan.
 
Maroon13

Maroon13

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GloryDawg said:
It will be a moot point in the end. They will lose at least four games. They are an average team. Also, OU offense is not good either.
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Yeah.......I was saying that last week and Michigan won. Looking at their schedule, they could make the playoffs. Oregon, Indiana and OhSt will be favored over Michigan. Hopefully Penn St can upset them at Michigan.

Lets just hope the committee, while they can't over turn the results of the game, will view Michigan's resume with one less win.
 
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TXDawg.sixpack

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Shmuley said:
Everything will be good as long as the playoff selection committee recognizes the actual loss.
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If Michigan finishes the season "undefeated", is the Western Michigan loss enough to keep them out of a 12-team playoff? Unfortunately, I doubt it.
 
Perd Hapley

Perd Hapley

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The stadium clock HAS to be the official clock. It’s the only clock the players and coaches can see, and it really doesn’t matter what clock anyone else is looking at.

Refs should certainly keep a back-up clock so that they can correct the stadium clock if it is off in a situation when the clock is already stopped, but this isn’t one of those situations if the stadium clock was at 0:00 before the ball contacted the WMU player.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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Perd Hapley said:
The stadium clock HAS to be the official clock. It’s the only clock the players and coaches can see, and it really doesn’t matter what clock anyone else is looking at.

Refs should certainly keep a back-up clock so that they can correct the stadium clock if it is off in a situation when the clock is already stopped, but this isn’t one of those situations if the stadium clock was at 0:00 before the ball contacted the WMU player.
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The NCAA statement says the stadium clock was at 0:01 when the ball was touched, and that is the clock the refs looked at in replay. But for some reason they should have used NBC's clock, wherever it cane from.
 
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FlotownDawg

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How many different clocks are there? NBC showed two different clocks, the one in the graphic, and the one during the replay that looked like the stadium clock, and they both said zero. Then there was the clock the replay officials used, and that one said 1 second. Are not all the clocks in the stadium synched up? And which one of the stadium clocks do the replay officials use?
 
POTUS

POTUS

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Perd Hapley said:
The stadium clock HAS to be the official clock. It’s the only clock the players and coaches can see, and it really doesn’t matter what clock anyone else is looking at.

Refs should certainly keep a back-up clock so that they can correct the stadium clock if it is off in a situation when the clock is already stopped, but this isn’t one of those situations if the stadium clock was at 0:00 before the ball contacted the WMU player.
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Stop. You're making too much sense. We can't have simple, straightforward rules. That would be too easy.***

Also, the stadium clock doesn't have tenths. So saying there were tenths of a second left is saying it was at zero. WMU should be awarded a victory and Michigan given a loss. Clear and obvious ruling. But of course, it's college football. The Dr. Pepper guys are gonna have a field day with this in next year's commercials.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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FlotownDawg said:
How many different clocks are there? NBC showed two different clocks, the one in the graphic, and the one during the replay that looked like the stadium clock, and they both said zero. Then there was the clock the replay officials used, and that one said 1 second. Are not all the clocks in the stadium synched up? And which one of the stadium clocks do the replay officials use?
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All of the stadium clocks were synced. The stadium clock said 0:01 when the ball was touched. The B1G replay system has some expensive software that syncs the replay video with a video of the stadium clock.

The reason I am confused is NBC showed a clock that said ZERO, and the NCAA says that clock should have been used in replay.
 
kb549

kb549

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Has anyone watched the entire play to determine that the clock started on time after the snap? You know that slow reaction time on the “unbiased” game clock operator. Or it that stuff AI vision controlled now? I thought I heard them saying Michigan had some expensive *** ball tracking system way earlier in the broadcast. Probably a D*mini*n system (don’t want to get sued for defamation).
 
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Dawgzilla2

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POTUS said:
Stop. You're making too much sense. We can't have simple, straightforward rules. That would be too easy.***

Also, the stadium clock doesn't have tenths. So saying there were tenths of a second left is saying it was at zero. WMU should be awarded a victory and Michigan given a loss. Clear and obvious ruling. But of course, it's college football. The Dr. Pepper guys are gonna have a field day with this
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The stadium clock does not tick down until the fractions of seconds expire. If the clock says 0:02, there could be anywhere from 2.0 seconds to 1.00001 seconds left. When the clock says zero, it means ZERO.

In this case, "the Big Ten used a camera trained on a clock in the stadium that showed 0:01 at the time of contact."
 
CochiseCowbell

CochiseCowbell

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Nobody Knows GIF
 
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StillTbonewannabe

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8dog said:
The stadium clock is the official clock unless you have to go to replay to determine the time. At that point, you use the embedded clock in the TV feed. What no one can seem to do is explain exactly what that is or how it’s calibrated to the stadium clock- if it is at all. But if that’s not available- and apparently it wasn’t, you use the TV graphic. But agree that no one has done a good job laying out the logistics of how these clocks normallly work.
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They have talked about syncing all clocks several hours before game time. I imagine they verify that the clocks are all still synced up before the game begins.

Big Ten refs just made sure Michigan still had a chance at a playoff spot.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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StillTbonewannabe said:
They have talked about syncing all clocks several hours before game time. I imagine they verify that the clocks are all still synced up before the game begins.

Big Ten refs just made sure Michigan still had a chance at a playoff spot.
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They reset the clocks to 0:09 before the snap. I have read that resetting the clocks like that syncs up all the clocks. I don't know what happens to any fractions of a second. Like, say the ball was spiked when the clocks said 0:09, but the real time was 0:08.5. Does resetting the clocks put you back at :09.0 on the dot, or is that half second still lost?
 
mstateglfr

mstateglfr

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TXDawg.sixpack said:
If Michigan finishes the season "undefeated", is the Western Michigan loss enough to keep them out of a 12-team playoff? Unfortunately, I doubt it.
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They will have beaten a ranged Oklahoma team, a ranked Iowa team, a ranked Penn State team, a highly ranked Indiana team, a ranked Oregon team, and a highly ranked Ohio State team.
They have the 2nd hardest schedule this season.

Even at 11-1(the WMU game as a loss), that is clearly a playoff team.
At 10-2 with a loss to Indiana or Ohio State, there may be a valid argument at the end of the year for them to be included.
 
Perd Hapley

Perd Hapley

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Dawgzilla2 said:
The NCAA statement says the stadium clock was at 0:01 when the ball was touched, and that is the clock the refs looked at in replay. But for some reason they should have used NBC's clock, wherever it cane from.
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Then the NCAA statement is BS. Stadium clock has to be the official clock.

It kind of reeks of NBC (and other networks) raising hell that their clock they used was not the official clock for the game, which is utterly ridiculous because the players and coaches who actually use the clock aren’t 17ing watching the game on TV. If that’s the case, NBC should do a better job syncing their clock to the stadium clock.

This whole thing is a circus.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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Perd Hapley said:
Then the NCAA statement is BS. Stadium clock has to be the official clock.

It kind of reeks of NBC (and other networks) raising hell that their clock they used was not the official clock for the game, which is utterly ridiculous because the players and coaches who actually use the clock aren’t 17ing watching the game on TV. If that’s the case, NBC should do a better job syncing their clock to the stadium clock.

.
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This is part of my confusion.

When the NCAA published its new rule, I thought I must not have understood it correctly. But...."While the NCAA said that the official time for all games will be the time displayed on the game clock, "when a replay review requires time to be restored or otherwise adjusted, the replay official's decision will be based on the embedded game clock contained within the program feed."

So, ignore your stadium clock, and use NBC's clock so the viewers at home will be happy?

And just where did NBC's clock come from, and was it properly synced to the rest of their replay?
 
Villagedawg

Villagedawg

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Dawgbite said:
If the outcome were reversed they would have reversed the outcome claiming playoff implications or some BS. The haves and the have nots.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. Remember when Ohio state didn't win their division, but played in the championship game anyway because, it was "best for the Big 10."
 
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8dog

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Dawgzilla2 said:
This is part of my confusion.

When the NCAA published its new rule, I thought I must not have understood it correctly. But...."While the NCAA said that the official time for all games will be the time displayed on the game clock, "when a replay review requires time to be restored or otherwise adjusted, the replay official's decision will be based on the embedded game clock contained within the program feed."

So, ignore your stadium clock, and use NBC's clock so the viewers at home will be happy?

And just where did NBC's clock come from, and was it properly synced to the rest of their replay?
Click to expand...
I’ve just assumed you wouldn’t use the stadium clock for replay b/c you would almost never be able to see it in the standard replay views.
 
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FlotownDawg

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If they are going to be this precise on the timing, then the NCAA should require all football stadium clocks to go to tenths of seconds, like basketball. It's only been in the last few years that I've noticed they've gotten so precise with the clock. Used to be, the ball would hit the ground on an incomplete pass or a runner go out of bounds, and another second would go off the clock because the clock operator was a little slow in stopping the clock, and no one cared. Now, it's like they replay everything to get the clock exact. But if the clock doesn't have tenths of seconds on it, it can't be exact. Let's say the clock actually was at 8.5 seconds before the previous play (if the tenths of seconds showed), which was a spike to stop the clock and the officials reset it to 9 seconds. Michigan just gained half a second, which would have made the difference in the clock going to zero before it was touched or not.
 
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Hotdiggydawg

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What everyone is missing is not the clock per say but when is the play dead. A player in the end zone touching the ball does not end the game. The player could catch it or tip it. The play is dead when the ball is caught or hits the ground. It's not like a punt where the kicking team touches the ball it is dead. This was a pass and the ball has to come to touch the ground either as incomplete, as a catch, or interception. So if a player touches the ball at one second it takes another second or two for the play to complete.
 
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Dawgzilla2

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Hotdiggydawg said:
What everyone is missing is not the clock per say but when is the play dead. A player in the end zone touching the ball does not end the game. The player could catch it or tip it. The play is dead when the ball is caught or hits the ground. It's not like a punt where the kicking team touches the ball it is dead. This was a pass and the ball has to come to touch the ground either as incomplete, as a catch, or interception. So if a player touches the ball at one second it takes another second or two for the play to complete.
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You haven't been keeping up. The defensive player was out of bounds when he jumped up to touch the ball, which means the pass was incomplete right when he touched it.
 
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