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How was the 2001 defense so bad?

OG Goat Holder

OG Goat Holder

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So I'm taking a slam and my phone is on charger, so I have to get some reading material. Found a program from the 2001 game at Florida where we got beat 50 something to nothing and they ran through us like water. I believe Grossman had 400 yards and 35 points at halftime. Then I saw the defensive starting lineup:

Haggan, Stephens and Mawhinney at the LBs/Ends;
Davis, Fields, Nash at DL;
Byrdsong, Prather and Morgan at S;
Wright and Banks at CB.

The only ones I remember sucking were Fields, Nash on the DL, Mawhinney at LB, and the 2 CBs. But were they THAT bad? I mean our 1999 and 2000 D was elite. Hard to believe just these guys made us so horrific in 2001.

Now I watched these games, I know we did in fact suck, but I didn't keep up with crootin and all that back then. I remember the AZ Western guys, but nowadays we act like it was the whole line we imported. Looking at this, we had Haggan, Stephens and Davis who had been a part of previous good defenses. And the safeties had been starting previously too.

Anyways, just kind of shocked me to see the actual personnel there and how we went from good to bad so quickly. Thinking back I do seem to remember Wright and Banks just being plumb terrible, and it was hard to run JLD's defense without competent corners. So everybody just blew the top off of us.
 
DesotoCountyDawg

DesotoCountyDawg

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OG Goat Holder said:
So I'm taking a slam and my phone is on charger, so I have to get some reading material. Found a program from the 2001 game at Florida where we got beat 50 something to nothing and they ran through us like water. I believe Grossman had 400 yards and 35 points at halftime. Then I saw the defensive starting lineup:

Haggan, Stephens and Mawhinney at the LBs/Ends;
Davis, Fields, Nash at DL;
Byrdsong, Prather and Morgan at S;
Wright and Banks at CB.

The only ones I remember sucking were Fields, Nash on the DL, Mawhinney at LB, and the 2 CBs. But were they THAT bad? I mean our 1999 and 2000 D was elite. Hard to believe just these guys made us so horrific in 2001.

Now I watched these games, I know we did in fact suck, but I didn't keep up with crootin and all that back then. I remember the AZ Western guys, but nowadays we act like it was the whole line we imported. Looking at this, we had Haggan, Stephens and Davis who had been a part of previous good defenses. And the safeties had been starting previously too.

Anyways, just kind of shocked me to see the actual personnel there and how we went from good to bad so quickly. Thinking back I do seem to remember Wright and Banks just being plumb terrible, and it was hard to run JLD's defense without competent corners. So everybody just blew the top off of us.
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You hit it in the last three sentences. JLDs defense required very good to elite cover corners. Those two were not that.
 
John Deaux VII

John Deaux VII

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I think it was the inability of defensive line to cause disruption and get to the quarterback coupled with not having corners like Fred Smoot and Robert Bean. Lack of depth was probably an issue too, as compared to 1999 and 2000.
 
vhdawg

vhdawg

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I have come to believe in recent years that Nick Saban really did expose something about Joe Lee Dunn's defensive scheme in the 2000 LSU game, and it took some time for that to become fully borne out through game tape and others working out the math as well.

That's not to say that personnel also didn't play a part, I believe it certainly did, but if you look at the entirety of JLD's tenure, 2000 LSU was a dividing line game. Things were never the same after that.
 
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patdog

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vhdawg said:
I have come to believe in recent years that Nick Saban really did expose something about Joe Lee Dunn's defensive scheme in the 2000 LSU game, and it took some time for that to become fully borne out through game tape and others working out the math as well.

That's not to say that personnel also didn't play a part, I believe it certainly did, but if you look at the entirety of JLD's tenure, 2000 LSU was a dividing line game. Things were never the same after that.
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I always thought that game was the turning point. But looking back there were a few games earlier that year we gave up a lot of points. But the rot definitely started in 2000.
 
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Perd Hapley

Perd Hapley

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At DL, Fields wasn’t that bad. Think he landed in the NFL for a little while, at least on a practice squad. But I think he was a freshmen that year though and was in no way ready for SEC ball yet. The Arizona Western trio were complete trash. And wasn’t Tommy Kelly on that team? Think we all know the story with him.

In secondary, Banks was talented but was undisciplined and was a headcase. Wright was pretty mid. Prather I think got hurt that year. Morgan was better at hitting than he was in coverage.

At LB, Mawhinney sucked. Him starting was a pretty stark revelation of our depth. Haggan of course was a workhorse, but ultimately not an elite athlete that could cover up flaws elsewhere. Stephens was decent. Also I could have sworn that Shawn Byrdsong had graduated and the actual Byrdsong on that team was his younger brother Marvin at LB. But maybe that’s wrong.

I do think that defense was better as the year went along, and was much, much better than they appeared in that Florida game. Gave up 24 points or less in 5 of 8 SEC games, then gave up 28 in the Egg Bowl that we won while also scoring once or twice themselves on pick-6 of Eli. Really, they just sucked against LSU and Florida, but the whole team didn’t even get off the bus in either of those games. Offense was the much bigger problem that year. Madkin’s injury hurt us pretty badly.
 
OG Goat Holder

OG Goat Holder

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grinningmule said:
You keep 25 year old game day programs next to the crapper? That is fandom.
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I got a bunch of them, 1997 CWS, 1996 basketball, 1995 baseball autographed, even that thing the Commercial Appeal did about 96 basketball

Even got a TX Rangers one about the time Raffy and A-Rod were there
 
OG Goat Holder

OG Goat Holder

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Perd Hapley said:
At DL, Fields wasn’t that bad. Think he landed in the NFL for a little while, at least on a practice squad. But I think he was a freshmen that year though and was in no way ready for SEC ball yet. The Arizona Western trio were complete trash. And wasn’t Tommy Kelly on that team? Think we all know the story with him.

In secondary, Banks was talented but was undisciplined and was a headcase. Wright was pretty mid. Prather I think got hurt that year. Morgan was better at hitting than he was in coverage.

At LB, Mawhinney sucked. Him starting was a pretty stark revelation of our depth. Haggan of course was a workhorse, but ultimately not an elite athlete that could cover up flaws elsewhere. Stephens was decent. Also I could have sworn that Shawn Byrdsong had graduated and the actual Byrdsong on that team was his younger brother Marvin at LB. But maybe that’s wrong.

I do think that defense was better as the year went along, and was much, much better than they appeared in that Florida game. Gave up 24 points or less in 5 of 8 SEC games, then gave up 28 in the Egg Bowl that we won while also scoring once or twice themselves on pick-6 of Eli. Really, they just sucked against LSU and Florida, but the whole team didn’t even get off the bus in either of those games. Offense was the much bigger problem that year. Madkin’s injury hurt us pretty badly.
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Which ones were AZ Western? Believe it was like Ofosobi or something.
 
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Willow Grove Dawg

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The rest of the DL was PUTRID after Davis, Fields & a mediocre at best Nash. Nash's teammates from Az Western were horrible and played a lot. MSU missed on 2-3 big time JUCO DL recruits in that class.
 
Maroon13

Maroon13

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I thought Hollywood Wright came in with Tommy BMF UP Kelly in summer 02? The whole hiding at the hotel all summer and all that????
 
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HammerOfTheDogs

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patdog said:
Tommy Kelly will always remain one of my least favorite players. All the talent in the world but played with zero effort here.
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Now, Tommy Kelly is a Head Coach at Lanier. Led them to a 10-win season. Described as a hard-core old school disciplinarian.
www.starherald.net

Tommy Kelly, a big man with big dreams, has turned around Lanier’s football team

Knolyn Bailey, a bright-eyed, just-turned-16-year-old, 10th grade running back, has grown up attending football games at Lanier High where his mother teaches. Most years, he says, there was little to cheer where the Bulldogs were concerned.
www.starherald.net www.starherald.net
 
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patdog

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HammerOfTheDogs said:
Now, Tommy Kelly is a Head Coach at Lanier. Led them to a 10-win season. Described as a hard-core old school disciplinarian.
www.starherald.net

Tommy Kelly, a big man with big dreams, has turned around Lanier’s football team

Knolyn Bailey, a bright-eyed, just-turned-16-year-old, 10th grade running back, has grown up attending football games at Lanier High where his mother teaches. Most years, he says, there was little to cheer where the Bulldogs were concerned.
www.starherald.net www.starherald.net
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P*ssed me off. Where was that work & discipline when he was in Starkville? Lanier is a bit of a paper tiger though. Weakest schedule in the state.
 
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Perd Hapley

Perd Hapley

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Willow Grove Dawg said:
The rest of the DL was PUTRID after Davis, Fields & a mediocre at best Nash. Nash's teammates from Az Western were horrible and played a lot. MSU missed on 2-3 big time JUCO DL recruits in that class.
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Well to be fair, we also had the #1 Juco DT in the country signed - 5* Paul Broussard, and he ended up getting shot and killed between signing day and start of camp.
 
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Maroon13

Maroon13

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patdog said:
Tommy Kelly will always remain one of my least favorite players. All the talent in the world but played with zero effort here.
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I happened to be in the students bleachers for the TN game 03. I can still see Coach John Hendrix screaming at him in warms up. It didn't bother ole Tommy one bit.
 
OG Goat Holder

OG Goat Holder

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vhdawg said:
Those guys were in 2002.
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That makes sense. When I look back at the 2001 schedule, we weren’t THAT bad save for Florida, who was elite, LSU, who won the SEC, and then of course the Troy bedshit in the rain. If I remember correctly there was a little excitement after beating OM and some optimism for the next year.

2002 is when the consistent beatings began. Then 2003 was just hapless.
 
The Peeper

The Peeper

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Anon1684630174 said:
What is the detailed story with Tommy Kelly? Dude was a beast in the NFL.
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He was a cun-t bag dou-che head while he was here in school.. He went on and made a lot of money in the NFL and has turned that high school program and consequently some kids lives around 180'. Good on him for finally waking up and seeing the light, and spreading it. They are currently 6-1 this season
 
J

johnson86-1

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Those teams from 2001 on through the end of Jackie's tenure had culture, talent, and coaching issues. We definitely had talent deficiencies at important positions, but we were not as bad as we consistently looked. Crooms did not inherit an empty cupboard and actually had the talent to be decent and he generally kept the talent level at least decent, but again, with major holes at important positions.
 
615dawg

615dawg

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I subscribe to the Saban 2000 theory as well. Something happened in that game in the fourth quarter that is hard to explain. We were up 31-17 and rolling. LSU had three drives in the fourth quarter that were unstoppable to take a 38-31 lead. We came back and scored to tie it then lost in overtime.

At the time, all the attention was on a possible fumbled first quarter touchdown by LSU, but Saban made a comment that "they saw something in the defense" when asked about the three touchdown drives in eight minutes all of a sudden.

The next week, we gave up 35 points to a bad Middle Tennessee team in their first year of FBS, then finished the season 2-2 against unranked SEC teams before winning the Snow Bowl.

Something happened that game to Joe Lee Dunn's defense. I'd love to ask Nick Saban.
 
OG Goat Holder

OG Goat Holder

Heisman
Sep 30, 2022
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johnson86-1 said:
Those teams from 2001 on through the end of Jackie's tenure had culture, talent, and coaching issues. We definitely had talent deficiencies at important positions, but we were not as bad as we consistently looked. Crooms did not inherit an empty cupboard and actually had the talent to be decent and he generally kept the talent level at least decent, but again, with major holes at important positions.
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Yeah I'll always say the "mess" Croom claimed to have inherited was always just a guise to set low expectations. I think you or I could have a 7-8 win season in the SEC if we get 3 years to plan for it.
 
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