11/22/1963
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People always forget that the people suspected are the people investigating and controlling the evidence.
People used to think smoking was safe because industry "studies" said so
There were no JFK agency conspiracies because US agencies said so
Again, the HSCA disagrees. That's why they came to the conclusion that they did. Every November 22 this board goes round and around on this topic. Either way people will always believe what they want and won't change.
I picked up Case Closed by Posner when I was home this summer. Since this is supposed to be the definitive book for the anti conspiracy crowd I'm looking forward to reading it to see his case.
And again, the facts disagree with them. There is literally no evidence whatsoever of any kind that goes beyond Oswald. It's all conjecture, opinion, hope, etc. Reading Posner's book is a good start.
If you get a chance read the book "Chaos" by Tom O'Neill. Gives you a little bit of a different look at Bugliosi re: Manson.
I have read Posner's book; it is well worth your time.
It seems unimaginable that an insignificant neurotic malcontent like Lee Harvey Oswald could have single-handedly changed the course of history. Nevertheless, that is Posner's conclusion. That has happened before and after -- the assassinations of Presidents McKinley and Garfield, and the attempted assassinations of Presidents Franklin Roosevelt, Ford (twice) and Reagan were all acts of solo crazies.
I always kind of wondered why there wasn't more discussion of the RFK assassination.
Kennedy was killed by a shot behind his ear but Sirhan Sirhan was standing in front of him. How does that happen?
From an article from The Washington Post:
Though Sirhan admitted at his trial in 1969 that he shot Kennedy, he claimed from the start that he had no memory of doing so. And midway through Sirhan’s trial, prosecutors provided his lawyers with an autopsy report that launched five decades of controversy: Kennedy was shot at point-blank range from behind, including a fatal shot behind his ear. But Sirhan, a 24-year-old Palestinian immigrant, was standing in front of him.
Kennedy was killed by a shot behind his ear but Sirhan Sirhan was standing in front of him. How does that happen?
From an article from The Washington Post:
Though Sirhan admitted at his trial in 1969 that he shot Kennedy, he claimed from the start that he had no memory of doing so. And midway through Sirhan’s trial, prosecutors provided his lawyers with an autopsy report that launched five decades of controversy: Kennedy was shot at point-blank range from behind, including a fatal shot behind his ear. But Sirhan, a 24-year-old Palestinian immigrant, was standing in front of him.
All the people, in Dealey Plaza were stupid? Despite the fact that they were there. They saw smoke, smelled gunpowder, and ran up the hill to the source of the smoke, and smell. Dozens of people report the same. But, since the government didn't approve of those facts, you discount them? That's not a particularly open minded position.
I think Sirhan did it but I believe him when he says he has no memory of doing so. That's a long story,
It was after Bobbie's murder that the Secret Service began to be appointed to candidates.
Bizarrely, RFK Jr requested SS protection during his candidacy but was rejected.
The excuse given was that RFK Jr was not confirmed as a major candidate yet.
However, Carter gave Edward SS protection (despite hating Edward) when he wasn't confirmed primary winner yet and Obama was given protection at the same point in campaign as RFK is.
RFK Jr was rejected three times and since initial request has had stalker break into his home and had an armed man show-up at a campaign event.
"Since the assassination of my father in 1968, candidates for president are provided Secret Service protection. But not me."
Joe Rogan called the book 'Chaos" fvcking amazing - that's enough for me to say pass.
Incorrect. This exact scenario was recreated by expert marksmen. It took one of the best 3 attempts to get off 3 shots with that level of accuracy in that amount of time. The others couldn't do it.
That is not exactly true. The basis of their conclusion in the 1978 report rested on a dictatabelt recording from a motorcycle that seemed to indicate “impulses” which were interpreted as shots. About 10 years later that recording was discredited because the police motorcycle was not at the scene at the time of the shooting. Robert Blakley who was the Chair of the HSCA in 1978, later stated that their conclusion would be changed based on the new information about the recording and would conclude no conspiracy if there was not a 4th shot. There was not a 4th shot. Again, I would encourage people to read Gerald Posner’s “Case Closed” published in 1993. He did not set out to disprove a conspiracy, however based on his exhaustive data/fact driven investigation came to the conclusion that The WC report while flawed in some ways, arrived at the right conclusion. Most people who support conspiracy theories don’t know many of the basic, evidence supported facts and aren’t familiar with the backgrounds of Oswald and Ruby which really explains their actions. To say that both were “unstable” is a huge understatement.
Was there on business a few years ago and walked around the place for a bit. Apparently the never close that Library window and I stood on the "X" put on the street where Pres. Kennedy was shot. Creepy feeling.
As for the OP. I was 5 but not in school cause I missed the birthdate cutoff by 2 days! Like Source the biggest memory was the horse drawn carriage and that famous seen of John Jr. and First lady on the steps watching.. all on black and white TV. I do remember Ruby killing Oswald on live TV also.
Perfect summary. Oswald had his views, so when fate caused JFK to drive past his place of work, he acted. It was a crime of opportunity and luck. Nothing more. So many people don't want to believe the randomness of history, but that's what life is about. History is full of events that simply come down to dumb luck or happenstance.
Look at how WWI started. The assassination attempt of Ferdinand actually failed (which was a bombing). However, for whatever reason lost to time, Ferdinand kept driving around that day, his driver took a wrong turn, and literally drove past one of the assassins who after his shock jumped up on the running board of the car and shot Ferdinand at point blank range.
The examples of such events are endless.
Good grief. RFK wasn't walking in a straight line and was constantly turning in to shake hands and acknowledge people. Someone has to be a true conspiracy wacko to believe anything beyond the clear facts of this event. And FYI, multiple people literally were there and saw Sirhan fired the fatal shots (which came from a few inches away).
Great post.
Also, most conspiracy folks jump to the incorrect conclusion that law enforcement/government incompetence is "proof" of a conspiracy. However, if you think this through, it actually proves the opposite. LOL!
Because those are not facts, just rumors, myths, and outright lies.
And FYI, eyewitnesses are the most stupid people with proving details of an event. Over 100 people were interviewed who were in the Plaza that day, the inconsistencies are comical to say the least.
Was a junior in college. Was walking to the Student Union when I heard. Had a bad feeling that everything was going to go south & it did. He was so charismatic & popular. Even the Republicans grudgingly liked him. Never believed Oswald acted alone. One of the secret service agents who was in the following car recently[this Sept.] Came out & said that he heard 2 shots. Article was in the NYT.
Thousands of pages on the assassination have not been released though the were supposed to have been in 2017.
When Warren Commission was put together members were told that the subject would be confined to Oswald only. After the process, there were commission members who did not agree with the final findings and refused to sign off on final report unless their reservations were included. They were told their reservations would be included but then never were.
The open mic thing on a motorcycle was later confirmed to be complete ******** that swayed the House Committee. If you believe that kind of crap you are a outdated idiot .
It is clear by documented evidence that JFK intended to withdraw 1,000 US troops from Vietnam by the end of 1963 & to withdraw all US troops from Vietnam by 1965. The CIA & Military were extremely opposed to this action. Always suspected the CIA.
Can't say I remember anything. I was only 22 days old. My mother told me that a neighbor told her about what happened while she was walking me in a carriage.
I guess I’m one of the older posters. I was a freshman at RU. I came out of a Development of Western Civilization exam in the General Classroom Building on College Ave (later renamed Scott Hall) when I find out about the shooting. I remember Rutgers postponed our game against Columbia scheduled for the next day. We watched the tv coverage all weekend and the funeral on Monday. My generation grew up that day.
I was a junior in hs and in English class. The school had no PA system and someone came to the door, whispered something to the teacher who told us the president had been shot. We were let out of school after that class and spent the weekend watching the nonstop tv coverage.
In what was always a strange decision to me, the NFL didn’t cancel the Sunday football games - my father had tickets to the Eagles game and we went - can’t remember who they played. On the way to Franklin Field, we had the radio on and heard Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. After we got home, I just remember being glued to the tv, probably until the funeral was over. The whole series of events were some of the most significant and saddest in my lifetime.
In what was always a strange decision to me, the NFL didn’t cancel the Sunday football games - my father had tickets to the Eagles game and we went - can’t remember who they played. On the way to Franklin Field, we had the radio on and heard Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. After we got home, I just remember being glued to the tv, probably until the funeral was over. The whole series of events were some of the most significant and saddest in my lifetime.
Do you think that maybe "uninformed" or "sadly mistaken" might be better than an "out dated idiot"?
I believed that the bogus audio wasn't the only piece of "evidence" that the committee would cite as for the reason that they thought it was a conspiracy. Looking into it further, I made a mistake. As I mentioned before I picked up Posner's book which I will read soon.
People should be able to debate things without insults.
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I always heard JFK wanted away from Vietnam but figured it was probably just attempts of protecting JFK from criticism. But I've seen enough reliable people say JFK didn't want military solutions in Vietnam. After Bay of Pigs he didn't trust military advisors. He also started to ignore McNamara after he called for sending troops to Laos, and preparing for a Chinese response that could involved using nukes vs China.
RFK Jr also says his uncle was against getting deeper into Vietnam. In same talk, RFK Jr also said that John and Robert had a young guy from Yale who used a bike to carry messages back and forth because they knew Hoover had their phones tapped.
There were screwballs, misfits and lunatics all over the place back then. McNamara really got off the chain with LBJ. The Tonkin fiasco was yet another murky affair with "shadows on the wall" as they say
Absolutely. The Warren Commission was too focused and concluded in less than a year.When Warren Commission was put together members were told that the subject would be confined to Oswald only. After the process, there were commission members who did not agree with the final findings and refused to sign off on final report unless their reservations were included. They were told their reservations would be included but then never were.
I was in Dallas this summer, and visited Dealey Plaza. The first questions that occurred to me, why didn’t Oswald fire when JFK was coming toward him on the street that was directly in front of the window? Why wait until the motorcade turned onto Elm and was moving away from him?
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