1950 Trophy

[Comebakatz3]

First off... both UT and Oklahoma claim this title. All three teams finished the year with just 1 loss. Oklahoma was the only team that finished without a loss in the regular season. UK lost their last game of the year to UT. UK then went on to beat OKlahoma. All three had equally great years and have excellent arguments for the title.

My question on determining whether this is embarrassing or just fine is... do UT and Oklahoma have trophies? Where did they get them? Were they given by the NCAA or some third party or did they make one? If they don't have one at all then this is a step too far. However, if they've made their own then there should be no problem with us having one as well.

 

[dorkmeister]

I had a turd tell me that the bowl games were like exhibitions and never mattered back the. He said Seniors never played in them. He said OU had about half their team and UK had most their team. He's just a sore looser.

 

[cantmissprospect]

They lined up their full team and we lined up our full team. We won on the grid iron. We beat them and that means we are National Champs. No other way to be a National Champ than win the game.

Not really. Tennessee beat UK that year and was ranked higher in final poll. So they have a pretty good argument also.

 

[Deeeefense]

Interesting that the tread on the national site was going hotly against Kentucky, 4 pages deep, until yesterday evening I posted the UK argument and there hasn't been one single post since. All the anti-UK experts seem to have disappeared.

 

[kyhusker2]

UK should be ridiculed for this just as much as Alabama, Auburn, Texas, and every other team is ridiculed for bs national championships. Hell, Alabama added like 5 or 6 titles to their collection in the 80s, based on seasons prior to WWII. It's absurd.

 

[MrKentucky]

Don't some fans make fun of UNC for claiming alternative basketball titles? Isn't this the same thing?

I see your point, but UNC basketball has actual accomplishments to be proud of.

 

[Soupbean]

Don't some fans make fun of UNC for claiming alternative basketball titles? Isn't this the same thing?

Yep because UNC is a supposed blue blood in hoops and it looks bad to try and embellish their resume (like their current resume isn't good enough or something)

We are perennial bottom dwellers who are trying to do what we can to look better so go for it. UNC doing it is sort of like the already good looking girl trying too hard with the makeup etc. We are a little bit homely and we need some lipstick and show some cleavage.

Time we started doing what we can and be damned what others think, sort of like UL did with setting aside their dignity to get what coaches and players it took at all cost and playing every game on Thursday night to get attention. At least in our case they cant argue we have a legit claim to the title.

 

[WildCard]

UK should be ridiculed for this just as much as Alabama, Auburn, Texas, and every other team is ridiculed for bs national championships. Hell, Alabama added like 5 or 6 titles to their collection in the 80s, based on seasons prior to WWII. It's absurd.

Totally agree with this^^^.

But relative to this thread the question is did they self award an "NC trophy" for same?

Peace

 

[CatsFanGG24]

Not really. Tennessee beat UK that year and was ranked higher in final poll. So they have a pretty good argument also.

Always fun to watch two UL fans argue.

 

[TeoJ]

Let's call it our Helms trophy in football,worked at NC in basketball.Hell they didn't even have to go to class.

 

[IHATEUAVEL]

UK beat Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl. So, it's UK's fault that there wasn't a post-bowl poll? How can it be ridiculed? Yes, UK's football history after Bear Bryant is mediocre at best, but during the Bear years, UK was solid program.

Is this just salt, because UofL will never, and I mean NEVER see a football national title? The only collision course the Cards are on is when honest Bob hops on his Harley.

snikkr nailed Honest Bobby..[winking][winking][winking][winking]

 

[cookscats]

They finished first but then we beat them after final rankings came out iirc. I think that gives us more than a fair claim.

Not exactly..... 3 other schools made claim to this title right? Recognize the Sugar Bowl but not the National Title

 

[cookscats]

Just to be clear I have no problem with the argument that UK should have been #1 based on today's standards. But commissioning a "National Champion" trophy some 65 years after the event just seems like a little bit too much to me. The belated "claim" of a championship based on a Sagarin statistical study carries far less historical weight than the actual game itself - breaking OK's 47 (?) game win streak. JMO

Peace

Agree with this.....

 

[Cat06]

http://www.saturdaydownsouth.com/ke...acility-features-claimed-national-title-1950/

Thanks!

 

[Cats78]

One thing to claim it and to argue for it; another thing completely to make your own trophy based on a forensic evaluation. It is something that will be widely ridiculed especially given UK's football history otherwise.

Peace

Widely ridiculed? LOL. Not really. I'm sure your UofL fan sites are having fun with it as I've seen the idiotic article that UofL fans are sharing today. I mean, whatever, I don't care either way about claiming the title or making a trophy. No one will care in a week, if not less. "Widely ridiculed" is silly

Maybe you all should worry about that basketball trophy you won by cheating, with a team half full of players that should have been ineligible. I guess we have something in common, we both have "fake" trophies.

 

[cookscats]

Ouch!

 

[jnewc2_rivals30628]

In case some of you need a history lesson (or just some general football knowledge):

"Prior to the advent of the BCS in 1998, national champions were primarily chosen by a combination of national ranking systems and nation media poll rankings. During the last 142 years, there have been more than 30 selectors of national champions using polls, historical research and mathematical rating systems. Beginning in 1936, The Associated Press began the best-known and most widely circulated poll of sportswriters and broadcasters. Before 1936, national champions were determined by historical research and retroactive ratings and polls. It is important to remember that from 1936–1964, the Associated Press chose a "national champion" prior to bowl games.

The NCAA has never officially recognized a national champion from among the bowl coalition institutions, but in 2004 the NCAA commissioned Jeff Sagarin to use his computer model to retroactively determine the highest ranked teams for the years prior to the BCS. His champion for the 1950 season is Kentucky. The polls for the 1950 national champion, taken before the bowl games were played, list either Oklahoma (AP, Berryman, Helms, Litkenhous, UPI, Williamson), Princeton (Boand, Poling), or Tennessee (Billingsley, DeVold, Dunkel, Missouri,Don Faurot Football Research, National Championship Foundation, Sagarin (ELO-Chess)). Tennessee was the winner of the Cotton Bowl and the only team to beat Kentucky during the 1950 season. Oklahoma was named National Champion by AP and UPI Coaches' Poll, both which awarded their titles before the bowl games. Kentucky would go on to beat Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl (giving them a more legitimate claim than any team in the country to be the national champion).

 

[Pike 96]

In case some of you need a history lesson (or just some general football knowledge):

"Prior to the advent of the BCS in 1998, national champions were primarily chosen by a combination of national ranking systems and nation media poll rankings. During the last 142 years, there have been more than 30 selectors of national champions using polls, historical research and mathematical rating systems. Beginning in 1936, The Associated Press began the best-known and most widely circulated poll of sportswriters and broadcasters. Before 1936, national champions were determined by historical research and retroactive ratings and polls. It is important to remember that from 1936–1964, the Associated Press chose a "national champion" prior to bowl games.

The NCAA has never officially recognized a national champion from among the bowl coalition institutions, but in 2004 the NCAA commissioned Jeff Sagarin to use his computer model to retroactively determine the highest ranked teams for the years prior to the BCS. His champion for the 1950 season is Kentucky. The polls for the 1950 national champion, taken before the bowl games were played, list either Oklahoma (AP, Berryman, Helms, Litkenhous, UPI, Williamson), Princeton (Boand, Poling), or Tennessee (Billingsley, DeVold, Dunkel, Missouri,Don Faurot Football Research, National Championship Foundation, Sagarin (ELO-Chess)). Tennessee was the winner of the Cotton Bowl and the only team to beat Kentucky during the 1950 season. Oklahoma was named National Champion by AP and UPI Coaches' Poll, both which awarded their titles before the bowl games. Kentucky would go on to beat Oklahoma in the Sugar Bowl (giving them a more legitimate claim than any team in the country to be the national champion).

Curious where that quote came from? The question and answer is this....how many,if not all, of the other schools Sagarin ranks as number one in those schools claim the national title for that year?? It's a very good bet that ALL do.

And if that's the case we should the title as well. And I'm fine with the trophy as a symbol of the accomplishment. Other schools sure as hell aren't putting any asterisk's on the stadiums where they advertise their championships that were counted because of the Sagarin rankings

 

[Brock28]

Thanks!

Anytime, my friend.

 

[RS73CAT]

Just my take. Rules, and laws are changed all the time. Mostly for the better. Years ago, a player could transfer to another school without sitting out a year. If you graduated, and had a fifth year of eligibility, you couldn't play. To me, I believe we should be able to claim a share of the 1950 championship. It hurts no one, and satisfies many, but I don't count.

As far as ul's argument goes. If this was ul, they would be screaming for it, and we here, would be on the opposite side.

 

[BigBlueTuckian]

but in 2004 the NCAA commissioned Jeff Sagarin to use his computer model to retroactively determine the highest ranked teams for the years prior to the BCS. His champion for the 1950 season is Kentucky

Some key words here: "commissioned" aka chose one man and one man only to be the sole determinant of history, and "use his computer model to retroactively determine" meaning he could have used whichever algorithm he liked with no outside input and no way to control bias, etc.

I realize UK fans like the fact that he determined us to be 1950 champs. I stand by my position: history said one thing, decades later a man with his own criteria said otherwise. It really sucks that during UK's golden years the national champ was determined before bowl games. But rewriting history to one's benefit is not my way. Had Jeff Sagarin not been "commissioned" to this task, would UK fans still claim this title? The IF/THEN game is endless.

 

[Beatle Bum]

Oklahoma finished #1 right? That's your National Champion in those days but I'm glad UK is finally taking football serious and investing in it....

I think most people realize that naming a NC before bowls was not the proper way to pick a NC. I think UK should promote that NC, even if it was decided years later. It makes sense.

 

[Beatle Bum]

UL fans claim basketball NCs under Peck Heckman.

 

[Deeeefense]

Some key words here: "commissioned" aka chose one man and one man only to be the sole determinant of history, and "use his computer model to retroactively determine" meaning he could have used whichever algorithm he liked with no outside input and no way to control bias, etc.

I realize UK fans like the fact that he determined us to be 1950 champs. I stand by my position: history said one thing, decades later a man with his own criteria said otherwise. It really sucks that during UK's golden years the national champ was determined before bowl games. But rewriting history to one's benefit is not my way. Had Jeff Sagarin not been "commissioned" to this task, would UK fans still claim this title? The IF/THEN game is endless.

It isn't like we jumped out of bed one day and declared ourselves the national champion of the 1950 season. The fact that the NCAA commissioned this to be done provides legitimacy to the claim, regardless of who did it and the Sagarin system has been around for decades and withstood the test of time for accuracy. Why should we run and hide from something that enhances the image of our program? Why would any Kentucky fan want to pick through the pieces and try to find some reason not to make this part of our football tradition? I don't understand the logic of any UK fan not wanting to embrace something that has been legitimately handed to us.

I'm grateful that those in charge choose to highlight this accomplishment in the the new training facility. It's something UK fans should be proud of and it adds to the experience of visiting recruits, which is very important in building a program.

 

[merrimanm]

Alabama claims about 6 of these types of championships and noone calls them out for it. So yes, UK should as well. Hell, Alabama claims a football championship when the Tuscaloosa 4H camp kids voted them number 1 in their 4H magazine.

 

[Oldtrainer_rivals]

My first game ever to watch was in fall of 1950. I was a awe struck 13 year old jr. high 8th grade o. guard and d. nose tackle. My WILDCAT hero's were linemen Bob Gain, Doug Mosley, Gene Donaldson and offensive players Vito "Sweet Ky. Babe" Parilli, and Wilbur "Shorty" Jamison. All were dominate in CATS win over OU! Coach Bryant moved mostly offensive player Walt Yowarsky to defensive end and tackle for the Bowl. Walt had his greatest game ever and won MVP of the Sugar Bowl game. OU all-american Billy Vesells said post game Walt was so disruptive that our qb. was befuddled the whole game. Think that team was SEC champions and after the Bowl game win some coaches and sports writers deemed them top team in the country. But after completion of 1950 season OU was ranked best team in the Country.
No doubt The Bear years were the Golden age of UK football! I enjoyed ever minute and remember it well! Still a WILDCAT football fan and looking forward to upcoming season!

 

[sensible]

Alabama claims about 6 of these types of championships and noone calls them out for it. So yes, UK should as well. Hell, Alabama claims a football championship when the Tuscaloosa 4H camp kids voted them number 1 in their 4H magazine.

Well Auburn fans have no problem calling them out for it. It's a running joke around Birmingham - except the joke doesn't seem to bother Alabama fans at all. It's the same way with Cam Newton - Cam to Auburn is assumed by everyone not an Auburn fan to be a business transaction - but this has zero effect on the Auburn fan's view of the recruitment.

I think the bottom line is anything you try to do to promote your program will be ridiculed by fans of other programs. The key is to get your own fan base behind which doesn't seem to be an issue at other schools.

 

[merrimanm]

Well Auburn fans have no problem calling them out for it. It's a running joke around Birmingham - except the joke doesn't seem to bother Alabama fans at all. It's the same way with Cam Newton - Cam to Auburn is assumed by everyone not an Auburn fan to be a business transaction - but this has zero effect on the Auburn fan's view of the recruitment.

I think the bottom line is anything you try to do to promote your program will be ridiculed by fans of other programs. The key is to get your own fan base behind which doesn't seem to be an issue at other schools.

Trust me. I know all about Alabama and Auburn. I grew up in Gadsden. That is why I despise anything that I'd University of Alabama.

 

[UK till Death]

One thing to claim it and to argue for it; another thing completely to make your own trophy based on a forensic evaluation. It is something that will be widely ridiculed especially given UK's football history otherwise.

Peace

Shut up, sanctimonious piece of monkey crap.

 

[TeoJ]

Totally agree with this^^^.

But relative to this thread the question is did they self award an "NC trophy" for same?

Peace

A poster with HUSKERcat and wildCARD,you guys should pick a team first. At least stick with the teams you like try not to pretend you like the CATS.

 

[JasonS.]

Claim the title...hang a sign in the stadium that says "National Champions" and add "Sagarin" somewhere on the sign, but DO NOT build & display a fake trophy!

Yep. No problem with a sign with appropriately large asterisks/caveats.

Creating a fake trophy on the other hand ...

 

[BARRYBLUE1]

Not really. Tennessee beat UK that year and was ranked higher in final poll. So they have a pretty good argument also.

The game was played on the weekend of the infamous blizzard in this part of country. Ohio State and Michigan game same day. Conditions were so bad that teams usually chose to punt on 1st down. Train excursion to Tennessee was stalled in Corbin and didn't arrive until halftime. Under normal conditions maybe UK wins.

 

[CB3UK]

Not really. Tennessee beat UK that year and was ranked higher in final poll. So they have a pretty good argument also.

How does Tennessee have a good argument? They didn't even win the SEC....we did. How can they have won the title that year if they didn't even win the conference? Also their lone loss was to a horrible 4-5 Mississippi State team.

As for Oklahoma, they lost their last game of the year, to us. In what sport can you lose your last game and then claim to be the champions?

 

[HedleyLamarr]

Tennessee beat Kentucky head to head, with both finishing 11-1 for the season. Kentucky had the better SEC record because they played one more game than UT. Tennessee beat 4 ranked teams, while Kentucky only beat one. Tennessee played a much tougher schedule. While Sagarin's original formula somehow managed to rank Kentucky number one, his later Elo- Chess model, designed for use by the BCS, ranked Tennessee number one. It is a very big stretch to claim a championship based on this fact base. A very big stretch.

 

[TBCat]

Tennessee beat Kentucky head to head, with both finishing 11-1 for the season. Kentucky had the better SEC record because they played one more game than UT. Tennessee beat 4 ranked teams, while Kentucky only beat one. Tennessee played a much tougher schedule. While Sagarin's original formula somehow managed to rank Kentucky number one, his later Elo- Chess model, designed for use by the BCS, ranked Tennessee number one. It is a very big stretch to claim a championship based on this fact base. A very big stretch.

No it isn't. If you beat the number #1 ranked team in the final bowl game today you will be the champion. We've even seen teams skip over other teams to get that rank. It happened to someone in the 90's. Can't remember if it was FSU or Nebraska. They had 1 loss and were ranked #3 but beat the #1 team in the bowl game. The #2 team also won but got leap frogged. It's not that big a stretch since these things happen all the time. If we use your standards it's a big stretch to say a lot of teams have titles that they also claim to have. So why is it just an issue when UK does it?

 

[TeoJ]

No it isn't. If you beat the number #1 ranked team in the final bowl game today you will be the champion. We've even seen teams skip over other teams to get that rank. It happened to someone in the 90's. Can't remember if it was FSU or Nebraska. They had 1 loss and were ranked #3 but beat the #1 team in the bowl game. The #2 team also won but got leap frogged. It's not that big a stretch since these things happen all the time. If we use your standards it's a big stretch to say a lot of teams have titles that they also claim to have. So why is it just an issue when UK does it?

Because that's the thinking of Card fans.

 

[cantmissprospect]

How does Tennessee have a good argument? They didn't even win the SEC....we did. How can they have won the title that year if they didn't even win the conference? Also their lone loss was to a horrible 4-5 Mississippi State team.

As for Oklahoma, they lost their last game of the year, to us. In what sport can you lose your last game and then claim to be the champions?

Interesting. UK played one more conference game and finished 5-1 while UT went 4-1

 

[cantmissprospect]

No it isn't. If you beat the number #1 ranked team in the final bowl game today you will be the champion. We've even seen teams skip over other teams to get that rank. It happened to someone in the 90's. Can't remember if it was FSU or Nebraska. They had 1 loss and were ranked #3 but beat the #1 team in the bowl game. The #2 team also won but got leap frogged. It's not that big a stretch since these things happen all the time. If we use your standards it's a big stretch to say a lot of teams have titles that they also claim to have. So why is it just an issue when UK does it?

UK finished #7 in the final poll . No way would they skip over 6 teams.

 

[TeoJ]

Love your "Coaches' Trophy". Really looking forward to your Uncle Martian apparel deal.

TPD,still covering up rapes?

 

[WildCard]

Widely ridiculed? LOL. Not really. I'm sure your UofL fan sites are having fun with it as I've seen the idiotic article that UofL fans are sharing today. I mean, whatever, I don't care either way about claiming the title or making a trophy. No one will care in a week, if not less. "Widely ridiculed" is silly....

Really? You can read about it here

And here

This

Maybe this

More

Something else

But 'Bama fans like the idea of a 7th championship for the Bear

Here is what UK says about the 1950 national championship.

The 1950 season should be appropriately recognized as the greatest season ever for UK football but I still think the NC trophy (mimicking the current championship trophy no less) was over the top. But I do agree this will be forgotten about in a week or so and the only persons to see it in the future will have no problem with it.

Peace