3pt Shooting

[vcugreg]

Something that I’ve found bewildering this season, and at times other seasons in the past, is K allowing his guys to shoot so many 3s. Now don’t get me wrong, I get the whole “take shots when you have them” and shooting out of slumps, but this years team has, at times, chucked an insane amount of 3s up.

What do you guys think is the plan behind that? Serious question. This is yet another time we shot 35+ 3s in a game and barely made any. It surprises me that K hasn’t put a lid on it when it gets out of hand. There are times when the game was within reach, and we bailed UNC out by chucking 3 after 3. Am I the only one that is baffled that K hasn’t tightened that up this late in the season? I worry about this going forward in March. We have to identify when shots just aren’t dropping and start driving to the paint rather than all these sequences of shooting 3 after 3.

The game that really comes to mind is the Cuse game where Jack shot 0/10 from 3. I was shocked he wasn’t given the red light after the first 5.

 

[DiehardDukeFan4Life]

I agree that we need to stop shooting so many 3’a when they’re not falling. In our 3 losses we shot a combined 22-95 (23.1%) from 3 point range.

Gonzaga 5-13 (38.4%)
Syracuse 9-43 (20.9%)
UNC 8-39 (20.5%)

Out of our 3 losses, the only game we didn’t shoot terrible from 3 point range in was against Gonzaga.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

A few days ago I mentioned that our half-court offense doesn’t work. 5 out motion swing caters to finding the open 3pt shooter because it’s based on off-ball screens. We’re not a 3pt shooting team and we are dangerously better when we shoot a normal amount (15 to 20 attempts) — It’s an elite offense that we run to perfection but given our lack of 3pt prowess, it just doesn’t work. We have gotten away with it all season with offensive rebounds and plenty of scoring from transition offense.

Last time I mentioned this virtually everyone disagreed because we’re winning games. Everyone will probably disagree again because “Zion didn’t play.” — You’re all entitled to your opinions but running the Golden State Warriors’ offense with a team that shoots this poorly isn’t good. Even with Zion in the game and on the boards, if the other team has a hot-hand player we’re in for a battle when the talent disparity should negate it.

Out of our 3 losses, the only game we didn’t shoot terrible from 3 point range in was against Gonzaga.

Although that was a loss, that’s the amount of 3’s we should be taking. We lost that game because the Space Jam aliens stole Steph Curry’s shooting stroke and rented it to Gonzaga in the first half where they literally shot 70% with perfect contests. Same story ensued the first 5 minutes of the 2nd half. Then Steph Curry got his powers back and we had to catch up 15 points down to a one of the top teams in the nation. We did that then failed to score in the final minute and a half and lost by 2.

In essence... We are much better when we shoot only 13 3pt attempts because the odds of facing a top team with Steph’s borrowed powers shooting 70% for 3/4th of the game and then holding us to 0 points in the final 2 minutes is never going to happen again and we will win THAT game every time against anyone.

 

[DukeDenver]

Our offense is statistically pretty good with things opened up for Zion, the most efficient player in the country. Now that he’s out, maybe a change is in order.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Our offense is statistically pretty good with things opened up for Zion, the most efficient player in the country. Now that he’s out, maybe a change is in order.

We’re the best team in the country at offensive put backs. Cheap possession, raises efficiency. If you miss the 2nd free throw on a shooting foul - it doesn’t count as a possession and we avg 24 FTs per game. We also lead the nation in steals, which are usually free buckets. Our superb defense also means our opponents often shoot miserably, a lot of the times that rebound leads to quick transition offense given our athleticism where we get a high percentage open shot / layup. The factors that go into an efficiency rating are divided by possessions. Given the information above, that’s why our efficiency is very top notch. All of that crap I just talked about puts a blanket over our half-court offense and shoves it in the closet.

Because our half-court offense results in 3pt shots more often than not, it’s our skeleton in the closet. That can stay hidden and great things can happen, I hope that’s the case. But if the skeletons in the closet get revealed.....

*** Not trying to be negative, just realistic.

 

[dukehokie]

We’re the best team in the country at offensive put backs. Cheap possession, raises efficiency. If you miss the 2nd free throw on a shooting foul - it doesn’t count as a possession and we avg 24 FTs per game. We also lead the nation in steals, which are usually free buckets. Our superb defense also means our opponents often shoot miserably, a lot of the times that rebound leads to quick transition offense given our athleticism where we get a high percentage open shot / layup. The factors that go into an efficiency rating are divided by possessions. Given the information above, that’s why our efficiency is very top notch. All of that crap I just talked about puts a blanket over our half-court offense and shoves it in the closet.

Because our half-court offense results in 3pt shots more often than not, it’s our skeleton in the closet. That can stay hidden and great things can happen, I hope that’s the case. But if the skeletons in the closet get revealed.....

*** Not trying to be negative, just realistic.

Call it realistic (because that’s the thin veil every internet coach hides behind), but the offense worked when we weren’t shooting 30 threes in a game. The winning wasn’t a fluke and it wasn’t solely because of one person. It actually worked to the tune of being the third most efficient offense in the country. Last year’s team was similar in that they were the third best offensive rebounding team in the country. If that’s a part of your game plan so be it. Last night turnovers and no ability to defend derailed this team more than anything. UNC got the world’s easiest shots, while Duke was shooting fallaway threes. Not a recipe for success at all.

So pat yourself on the back and say we need to switch to pick and roll if that makes you feel better. The team has generally scored just fine. Even against Syracuse they put up 91 after shooting 8-43 from three.

The main issue that has occurred in the last 5-6 games is that no one outside of RJ, Cam and Zion were capable of scoring. That wasn’t the case early on. Now, there is some serious work to be done to empower the others to score, because essentially 4 guys have to make up for one players’ production. This may turn into a blessing, because some guys are going to forced into roles they didn’t hold or didn’t expect to hold. If they can perform, and Zion comes back, this team then successfully takes the final step becoming a champion.

 

[Laettner]

One sequence in 2nd half we took a three got the rebound kicked out then took another 3 got ANOTHER board and kicked out for yet another three. Jacked up three treys in less than 10 secs. That is not basketball, it's AAU baloney.

End of 1st half clearly showed our lack of basketball IQ & it was alarming. I love our guys but they do not know how to play the game correctly, its an NBA system based on out athleteing teams. It was on full display last night and is very concerning heading into the tourney.

 

[dukehokie]

One sequence in 2nd half we took a three got the rebound kicked out then took another 3 got ANOTHER board and kicked out for yet another three. Jacked up three treys in less than 10 secs. That is not basketball, it's AAU baloney.

End of 1st half clearly showed our lack of basketball IQ & it was alarming. I love our guys but they do not know how to play the game correctly, its an NBA system based on out athleteing teams. It was on full display last night and is very concerning heading into the tourney.

Yeah that was problematic. Outside of the players not hitting the shots, there seemed to be no plan. So at this point, practice is going to be paramount. Shot creation is more important at this point than shot making. This team was a high assist team earlier in the year. They have to get back to that. Get back to that and the role players become more empowered. Empowering those guys I’m sure is on the top of the list.

 

[chov1125]

Remember the Syracuse loss? Remember how bad we looked on defense? Remember how we gave K a few days to draw up a gameplan for Virginia? Remember how that turned out? I’m confident we’ll look much better this weekend.

 

[crazyduke3]

We’re the best team in the country at offensive put backs. Cheap possession, raises efficiency. If you miss the 2nd free throw on a shooting foul - it doesn’t count as a possession and we avg 24 FTs per game. We also lead the nation in steals, which are usually free buckets. Our superb defense also means our opponents often shoot miserably, a lot of the times that rebound leads to quick transition offense given our athleticism where we get a high percentage open shot / layup. The factors that go into an efficiency rating are divided by possessions. Given the information above, that’s why our efficiency is very top notch. All of that crap I just talked about puts a blanket over our half-court offense and shoves it in the closet.

Because our half-court offense results in 3pt shots more often than not, it’s our skeleton in the closet. That can stay hidden and great things can happen, I hope that’s the case. But if the skeletons in the closet get revealed.....

*** Not trying to be negative, just realistic.

All of your post are two miles long.

 

[Mac9192]

We are too dependent on our one and dones. Yes, the team was in shock that 36 seconds into the game, their best player gets injured. Our 3 juniors are so clueless on offense. Alex has regressed from the little he played his freshman season. The sad reality is our player development is really bad.
If Zion played at Clemson, they would have 5-7 more wins. He’s that good, and he masks some of our short comings cause of his motor.
Very frustrating watching our team get shredded with 62 points in the paint. Maye had, what 33?
Our ball movement is terrible, and the confidence of our non elite kids looks low.

How much is on K?

 

[DukeRulesBasketball]

Remember the Syracuse loss? Remember how bad we looked on defense? Remember how we gave K a few days to draw up a gameplan for Virginia? Remember how that turned out? I’m confident we’ll look much better this weekend.

Thank you!! I’m not sure why everyone is losing their minds.

 

[Dad2ze]

Call it realistic (because that’s the thin veil every internet coach hides behind), but the offense worked when we weren’t shooting 30 threes in a game. The winning wasn’t a fluke and it wasn’t solely because of one person. It actually worked to the tune of being the third most efficient offense in the country. Last year’s team was similar in that they were the third best offensive rebounding team in the country. If that’s a part of your game plan so be it. Last night turnovers and no ability to defend derailed this team more than anything. UNC got the world’s easiest shots, while Duke was shooting fallaway threes. Not a recipe for success at all.

So pat yourself on the back and say we need to switch to pick and roll if that makes you feel better. The team has generally scored just fine. Even against Syracuse they put up 91 after shooting 8-43 from three.

The main issue that has occurred in the last 5-6 games is that no one outside of RJ, Cam and Zion were capable of scoring. That wasn’t the case early on. Now, there is some serious work to be done to empower the others to score, because essentially 4 guys have to make up for one players’ production. This may turn into a blessing, because some guys are going to forced into roles they didn’t hold or didn’t expect to hold. If they can perform, and Zion comes back, this team then successfully takes the final step becoming a champion.

It kills me when teams play poor defense and try to compensate by jacking up 3s. Jack had one good game where he made like 5 3s and now all of a sudden he’s Steph Curry. A few times last night Goldwire and Tre both had wide open shots from 3 and instead drove in and took a 15 ft jump shot. It didn’t fall but that’s how you get the defense to move so you can drive.

My biggest problem isn’t they took a ton of 3s but their defense was and looked JVish.

 

[chov1125]

It kills me when teams play poor defense and try to compensate by jacking up 3s. Jack had one good game where he made like 5 3s and now all of a sudden he’s Steph Curry. A few times last night Goldwire and Tre both had wide open shots from 3 and instead drove in and took a 15 ft jump shot. It didn’t fall but that’s how you get the defense to move so you can drive.

My biggest problem isn’t they took a ton of 3s but their defense was and looked JVish.

Just because they are tough and gritty doesn’t mean they aren’t still Freshman. Our youth was on display last night. And that’s not criticism, just an all around difficult situation for them to deal with.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Call it realistic (because that’s the thin veil every internet coach hides behind), but the offense worked when we weren’t shooting 30 threes in a game. The winning wasn’t a fluke and it wasn’t solely because of one person. It actually worked to the tune of being the third most efficient offense in the country. Last year’s team was similar in that they were the third best offensive rebounding team in the country. If that’s a part of your game plan so be it. Last night turnovers and no ability to defend derailed this team more than anything. UNC got the world’s easiest shots, while Duke was shooting fallaway threes. Not a recipe for success at all.

So pat yourself on the back and say we need to switch to pick and roll if that makes you feel better. The team has generally scored just fine. Even against Syracuse they put up 91 after shooting 8-43 from three.

The main issue that has occurred in the last 5-6 games is that no one outside of RJ, Cam and Zion were capable of scoring. That wasn’t the case early on. Now, there is some serious work to be done to empower the others to score, because essentially 4 guys have to make up for one players’ production. This may turn into a blessing, because some guys are going to forced into roles they didn’t hold or didn’t expect to hold. If they can perform, and Zion comes back, this team then successfully takes the final step becoming a champion.

I never once said our wins were a fluke, 23-3 with our schedule isn’t a fluke. Shooting is our skeleton in the closet. Our defense is so damn good that majority of our opponents shoot miserably, we also lead the nation in steals. Steals are transition offense and majority of rebounds are as well. Louisville game, they were firing hot on us and protecting the ball the first 30 minutes. Not much transition, all half-court offense. We couldn’t shoot, 3’s and mid-range weren’t falling. We were barely breathing thanks to Zion. Last 9 minutes our defense created chaos and we flourished in that created transition. If we face that situation in the tournament, we are way too damn talented at attacking the basket to live and die by jump shots. Bottom line is that we are winning games and I have no business arguing with that. Basically, I’m paranoid of facing a couple hot hands and I don’t want to have to rely on a miracle comeback to win. That being said, I’ve thought our half-court offense could use some sprucing up. The other day I mentioned that I thought P&R would warrant some success and add some creativity. There’s a million other offensive options that would probably help. I don’t think we need to “switch to P&R” or switch to anything. Just maybe put a few tricks different looks up our offensive sleeve for when the perimeter shots are woeful. Something to provide a spark.

I know you don’t agree with me on the above paragraph, that’s cool man. We’re all allowed our opinions but you don’t have to throw in jabs about patting myself on the back or being an internet coach. I’m just bringing up the discussion. Even if you look at the game thread, few guys were mentioned how terrible the half-court O looked. We can just agree to disagree on all of that.

Syracuse game was a high tempo slop on both sides, I don’t know the exact # of possessions we had w/o looking it up again but it was like 105ish. We average 75 or so. Last year’s team had prolific 3pt shooters. The first-shot offense was successful without the offensive rebounding, that was just a bonus of 2 insanely talented centers. Too bad they couldn’t play defense.

I completely agree with you about the scoring. Tre is fantastic at everything but scoring. White was providing 10-15ppg or so until conference play began, he’s been absolutely miserable offensively. Honestly, I think mixing Alex into it a little bit would help. He’s not a good defender but not as terrible as most seem to think that he is. I know last night was no indication that he’s a sharp shooter, but I think he could regularly provide an offensive spark if given the chance. DeLaurier has been awesome to bring in for defensive purposes but he’s absolutely inept offensively. I know Joey Baker redshirted because K didn’t foresee the playing time but he has a pretty stroke, sure would of liked to see it on display.

 

[LouisiAaron]

All I know is we can’t shoot at home and we’re better in black. That’s a fact. Can we wear dark colors as the higher seed in the tournament?

 

[truth321]

I agree that we need to stop shooting so many 3’a when they’re not falling. In our 3 losses we shot a combined 22-95 (23.1%) from 3 point range.

Gonzaga 5-13 (38.4%)
Syracuse 9-43 (20.9%)
UNC 8-39 (20.5%)

Out of our 3 losses, the only game we didn’t shoot terrible from 3 point range in was against Gonzaga.

Especially when zion is out our chances at offensive rebounds are cut in half.

 

[HuffyJB]

This isn't a good shooting team, and that isn't going to change. On most nights they can weather that with Zion's typical points in the paint added into the equation. When he is out, the shooting struggles become paramount. The other game where he missed extended time (@FSU), Duke had one of their better shooting nights from three, going 11-24. They probably really need to have that sort of a night shooting to beat a good team with Zion out, and that is really the exception more than the rule. Obviously 8-39 isn't going to get it done when your paint production is cut down by 75%.

 

[Dad2ze]

Just because they are tough and gritty doesn’t mean they aren’t still Freshman. Our youth was on display last night. And that’s not criticism, just an all around difficult situation for them to deal with.

Being a freshman is an excuse for poor defensive effort?

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Being a freshman is an excuse for poor defensive effort?

The last 3 days of practice a defensive gameplan has been drilled into their heads, one that includes Zion. They’re given a defensive assignment or two to look over and likely watched some tape. First play of the game and everything changes at a moment’s notice. That’s tough... But, the defense definitely didn’t need to look that bad.

Honestly? I think White and Reddish played the terrible defense. Not saying other guys didn’t give up a couple plays but those 2 really just got torched.

 

[AlanInNJ]

I don't know Beer.

To me Syracuse was an anomaly. We were down two starters and shot terribly in an ugly game. Even still, if Zion makes both free throws at the end of regulation, we win.

Tre has generally been a nice supplemental scorer, getting into the lane for a couple layins or floaters a game, 9-12 points. Louisville he was 2 for 10. Last night he was 1 for 11. Like most of the team for most of the game last night he looked dazed and confused. He airballed an 8' baseline pull-up. Really??

I think Alex's liability on defense is why he doesn't play much. And because he doesn't play much he doesn't get the in game experience which could boost his confidence. Double edge sword there.

Somebody not named RJ, Zion or Cam needs to step up and put the ball thru the basket. I'm really hoping Jack comes back around. Ideally Bolden chips in a handful of points too.

Oh, and we are still 23 and 3, 11 and 2 in conference. The sky is not falling.

 

[denverexpat]

3/4 through the season and we are saying they need to practice defense? That statement itself is problematic. By now we should have a clue what we are doing no matter who is on the floor...but we dont. Same on the O end...its a pro style offense with non-pro players. Works some nights not others...just like the NBA..we are tied to it as long as we rotate our roster every season

 

[dukehokie]

I never once said our wins were a fluke, 23-3 with our schedule isn’t a fluke. Shooting is our skeleton in the closet. Our defense is so damn good that majority of our opponents shoot miserably, we also lead the nation in steals. Steals are transition offense and majority of rebounds are as well. Louisville game, they were firing hot on us and protecting the ball the first 30 minutes. Not much transition, all half-court offense. We couldn’t shoot, 3’s and mid-range weren’t falling. We were barely breathing thanks to Zion. Last 9 minutes our defense created chaos and we flourished in that created transition. If we face that situation in the tournament, we are way too damn talented at attacking the basket to live and die by jump shots. Bottom line is that we are winning games and I have no business arguing with that. Basically, I’m paranoid of facing a couple hot hands and I don’t want to have to rely on a miracle comeback to win. That being said, I’ve thought our half-court offense could use some sprucing up. The other day I mentioned that I thought P&R would warrant some success and add some creativity. There’s a million other offensive options that would probably help. I don’t think we need to “switch to P&R” or switch to anything. Just maybe put a few tricks different looks up our offensive sleeve for when the perimeter shots are woeful. Something to provide a spark.

I know you don’t agree with me on the above paragraph, that’s cool man. We’re all allowed our opinions but you don’t have to throw in jabs about patting myself on the back or being an internet coach. I’m just bringing up the discussion. Even if you look at the game thread, few guys were mentioned how terrible the half-court O looked. We can just agree to disagree on all of that.

Syracuse game was a high tempo slop on both sides, I don’t know the exact # of possessions we had w/o looking it up again but it was like 105ish. We average 75 or so. Last year’s team had prolific 3pt shooters. The first-shot offense was successful without the offensive rebounding, that was just a bonus of 2 insanely talented centers. Too bad they couldn’t play defense.

I completely agree with you about the scoring. Tre is fantastic at everything but scoring. White was providing 10-15ppg or so until conference play began, he’s been absolutely miserable offensively. Honestly, I think mixing Alex into it a little bit would help. He’s not a good defender but not as terrible as most seem to think that he is. I know last night was no indication that he’s a sharp shooter, but I think he could regularly provide an offensive spark if given the chance. DeLaurier has been awesome to bring in for defensive purposes but he’s absolutely inept offensively. I know Joey Baker redshirted because K didn’t foresee the playing time but he has a pretty stroke, sure would of liked to see it on display.

I am with you. I apologize. I admit I am a bit cranky. This team is too good to look like they have for the past 3-4 games really. Injuries aside. I think the ship will be righted, and maybe Zion being out for a few days is the ticket that saves this squad. I mentioned it in the game thread, we used to share the ball well. That’s hasn't been the case in this stretch. This may force some hands.

 

[dukehokie]

Being a freshman is an excuse for poor defensive effort?

Honestly, there is truth to this when you run a strict game script. And when something happens like last night, or Syracuse, there’s no fall back due to lack of experience. You can’t say “switch to the game plan we used against ____ last year.” When Duke went down 22 to Maryland, K famously “threw away the playbook.” But in reality, that was a veteran club that could fall back on successes from past events.

This team doesn’t have that recipe book yet. Practice will be crucial for these guys.

 

[PatrickYates]

What else are we supposed to do? It is easy to say "don't shoot so many threes." What is the alternative strategy? Teams know that we've got 2-3 guys that are lethal when driving in Cam, Zion and RJ. With another player in Tre that is pretty good at driving and hitting runners or tear drops as the gets closer to the basket. Then there are the 2 bigs who are pretty useless outside the paint.
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So, the defensive strategy is to clog the paint. There simply aren't any extant driving lanes due to the number of bodies in the paint. If our guys were better at dribbling through a crowded lane, it would be a little easier, but that is something that takes time.
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Folks here don't like the following, but it doesn't make it any less true:

WE HAVE TO MAKE MORE THREES. Not take less. Make more of the shots we take. If Tre, Jack, and AOC don't make shots, we probably can't win a title.
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We knew the three point shooting would be bad this year. We never dreamed it would be this disastrous.

 

[dukehokie]

It kills me when teams play poor defense and try to compensate by jacking up 3s. Jack had one good game where he made like 5 3s and now all of a sudden he’s Steph Curry. A few times last night Goldwire and Tre both had wide open shots from 3 and instead drove in and took a 15 ft jump shot. It didn’t fall but that’s how you get the defense to move so you can drive.

My biggest problem isn’t they took a ton of 3s but their defense was and looked JVish.

Jack is trying to find himself. And K is allowing it, because we need Jack more in the postseason than we do in the regular season against Miami. I get it.

33 threes is uncalled for though. Especially when you have a point guard like Tre. This is the best team in the nation inside the arc. Part of that, a huge part, is Zion. But Cam and RJ are more than capable of getting to the interior as well.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

I don't know Beer.

To me Syracuse was an anomaly. We were down two starters and shot terribly in an ugly game. Even still, if Zion makes both free throws at the end of regulation, we win.

Tre has generally been a nice supplemental scorer, getting into the lane for a couple layins or floaters a game, 9-12 points. Louisville he was 2 for 10. Last night he was 1 for 11. Like most of the team for most of the game last night he looked dazed and confused. He airballed an 8' baseline pull-up. Really??

I think Alex's liability on defense is why he doesn't play much. And because he doesn't play much he doesn't get the in game experience which could boost his confidence. Double edge sword there.

Somebody not named RJ, Zion or Cam needs to step up and put the ball thru the basket. I'm really hoping Jack comes back around. Ideally Bolden chips in a handful of points too.

Oh, and we are still 23 and 3, 11 and 2 in conference. The sky is not falling.

I’m cool with throwing the Syracuse game out the window. Also cool with throwing last night’s game out the window. Regardless of the stat line, both were virtually no gameplan and unprepared. Not a clear representation of this team.

Those games aside, our shooting scares the hell out of me. We’re winning and that’s what matters, can’t argue with the W.... Assuming full health in the big tourney, could our shooting haunt us? We defend the arc well, but there’s a lot of hot hands out there that could catch fire and that feels lethal if we’re launching 3’s at our normal rate and normal percentage.

The Jack of the past is not the Jack of the present. I know everyone is stuck focused on how bad his shooting has been, but I ain’t been impressed with his defense lately either. He was either on Johnson or Maye last night. One play Johnson just took him right off the dribble and beat him by a step and layed it up. He gave up on the play. Gave up 2 offensive rebounds to Maye by simply not boxing out, Maye made a mockery of him in the paint a couple times. He’s been beat off the dribble quite a few times in conference play, Zion has usually been in the facinity to save the day. I like Jack, I hope it’s a slump... But I’m starting to think he just had a couple lucky games early on shooting wise and showed off his defensive ability against cupcakes that isn’t translating against the big dogs.

Anyway... you’re right. It’s still a great time to be a Duke fan.

 

[PatrickYates]

Jack is trying to find himself. And K is allowing it, because we need Jack more in the postseason than we do in the regular season against Miami. I get it.

33 threes is uncalled for though. Especially when you have a point guard like Tre. This is the best team in the nation inside the arc. Part of that, a huge part, is Zion. But Cam and RJ are more than capable of getting to the interior as well.

We say "a PG like Tre" as though he's this great set up guy. We are lethal in the transition game, and Tre is a huge, huge part of that. We've been mediocre in the half court all season. RJ and Zion play a lot of hero ball. That is only a problem when it doesn't work. Harden plays hero ball, and so did Kobe. When they are winning games, no one says anything. Hero ball is only a problem when it doesn't work. In the half court, there are a few easy assists to be had in giving RJ/Zion the ball in low risk situations, for them to make a good move and score. It isn't like the PG (Tre) had much to do with it. He simply gets them the ball in routine situations, and they use their incredible abilities to score. In his frosh year, I legit thought that Greg Paulus was the second coming of Bobby Hurley. Turns out, anyone can look good and accumulate assists when all you have to do is make a lateral pass to JJ who then made a three from a distance so far out that no college defenders would guard him. It wasn't like GP, or Tre, is getting assists because he's penetrating and then dishing under pressure in tight windows. AGAIN, IN THE HALF COURT.
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We've built up Tre as this elite set up man, but he really isn't. He's a very good set up guy, and is elite in transition. But in the half court? He's decent. And a huge part of his success is the guys he's throwing it too. Take out Zion, or RJ, and we get very guardable. When it gets a little harder to set guys up, Tre hasn't risen to the occasion. He hasn't been bad at setting the table, just not elite.
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Much like "AOC is a great shooter," the concept of Tre as this great team running PG is more of an expectation that we all had. He's elite in transition, but not in the half court.

 

[Mpm277]

I remember watching the ESPN+ series before the season started and K explaining that the offense will garauntee open threes and how you absolutely need to be able to hit the spot up three. But this team can't. Cam is really the only person on the entire team that even has any business shooting the three ball.

 

[vcugreg]

It worries me that in these games where we are 2/20 from 3 at halftime that K doesn't rein in the 3pt shooting. I know K knows best with this team, so I'm sure he will figure out what to do. I just wish that when we aren't hitting 3's we don't just chuck up more in hopes of making them. There were stretches last night where the game was within a few possessions and our guys were content with chucking up 3 pointers. It's enough to drive a fan crazy lol. It's nice when they are hitting them like in the UVA game, but we got to take notice when they just aren't falling and adapt the game plan. The possession mentioned above, where there were 3 back-to-back 3's bricked was infuriating to watch. I've never seen such a bad 3 point shooting Duke team have such a huge green light to chuck shot after shot. It's baffling to me, but I'm certainly no Coach K.

 

[dukehokie]

We say "a PG like Tre" as though he's this great set up guy. We are lethal in the transition game, and Tre is a huge, huge part of that. We've been mediocre in the half court all season. RJ and Zion play a lot of hero ball. That is only a problem when it doesn't work. Harden plays hero ball, and so did Kobe. When they are winning games, no one says anything. Hero ball is only a problem when it doesn't work. In the half court, there are a few easy assists to be had in giving RJ/Zion the ball in low risk situations, for them to make a good move and score. It isn't like the PG (Tre) had much to do with it. He simply gets them the ball in routine situations, and they use their incredible abilities to score. In his frosh year, I legit thought that Greg Paulus was the second coming of Bobby Hurley. Turns out, anyone can look good and accumulate assists when all you have to do is make a lateral pass to JJ who then made a three from a distance so far out that no college defenders would guard him. It wasn't like GP, or Tre, is getting assists because he's penetrating and then dishing under pressure in tight windows. AGAIN, IN THE HALF COURT.
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We've built up Tre as this elite set up man, but he really isn't. He's a very good set up guy, and is elite in transition. But in the half court? He's decent. And a huge part of his success is the guys he's throwing it too. Take out Zion, or RJ, and we get very guardable. When it gets a little harder to set guys up, Tre hasn't risen to the occasion. He hasn't been bad at setting the table, just not elite.
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Much like "AOC is a great shooter," the concept of Tre as this great team running PG is more of an expectation that we all had. He's elite in transition, but not in the half court.

False. A lot of Tre’s passes turn into immediate missed shots. Of all people, you should appreciate this statement. He leads the ACC in assists despite that, and is top 10 in the country in assist/turnover ratio. How is he not effective outside of transition again?

I love these statements “take this guy out and the team becomes so much less effective.” Of course it works that way dude! Holy crap, take Jordan off the Bulls and they lose in the first round of the playoffs! What a silly if/and statement. This team is prepped to have Zion’s efficiency. K should be fired if he’s prepping the team to run through Javin. Get out of here with this lame rudimentary arguement that Tre loses value because he gets to pass to Zion and RJ in transition. That’s bogus and you know it.

I give you creativity points, because you’ve clearly run out of material. Also thanks for clarifying you quality of judgement. You and Howard Garfinkel are the only two people who saw Hurley in Paulus. I now know what we’re dealing with here.

 

[PatrickYates]

It worries me that in these games where we are 2/20 from 3 at halftime that K doesn't rein in the 3pt shooting. I know K knows best with this team, so I'm sure he will figure out what to do. I just wish that when we aren't hitting 3's we don't just chuck up more in hopes of making them. There were stretches last night where the game was within a few possessions and our guys were content with chucking up 3 pointers. It's enough to drive a fan crazy lol. It's nice when they are hitting them like in the UVA game, but we got to take notice when they just aren't falling and adapt the game plan. The possession mentioned above, where there were 3 back-to-back 3's bricked was infuriating to watch. I've never seen such a bad 3 point shooting Duke team have such a huge green light to chuck shot after shot. It's baffling to me, but I'm certainly no Coach K.

Again, what is the alternative. Defenses are collapsing into the paint. We can take very good looks from 3, or we can drive and attempt very difficult 2s. It isn't like our guys are jacking up 3s with a hand in their face. They are as wide open as college perimeter players will ever be. Their alternative is to drive into a crowded paint with tons of defenders swiping at the ball as they dribble, while a few shot blockers wait for the shot attempts. Or, secure in the knowledge our guys won't kick out for threes, the defenders can sit there and let us run over them for charges. Because they were charges.
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This board is acting like we are passing up easy 2s for difficult 3s. In reality, it is the opposite. We are forgoing incredibly difficult 2s for essentially wide open 3s.
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If we'd make more threes, it would open up the lane for more driving.
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We have to start making 3s. If we start making a higher percentage, the lane will open up, and we'll take less threes, because there will be better options available wrt attacking the rim. When teams pack it in on us, we have to make 3s to get them to come out to guard us.
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There is no alternative. WE HAVE TO START MAKING 3s. We don't have to be snipers. But we can't be horrible from 3. Being mediocre from 3 would literally solve every single problem this team has. Every one. Just 33%, consistently, as a team. Do that, and it is national title time.

 

[PatrickYates]

False. A lot of Tre’s passes turn into immediate missed shots. Of all people, you should appreciate this statement. He leads the ACC in assists despite that, and is top 10 in the country in assist/turnover ratio. How is he not effective outside of transition again?

I love these statements “take this guy out and the team becomes so much less effective.” Of course it works that way dude! Holy crap, take Jordan off the Bulls and they lose in the first round of the playoffs! What a silly if/and statement. This team is prepped to have Zion’s efficiency. K should be fired if he’s prepping the team to run through Javin. Get out of here with this lame rudimentary arguement that Tre loses value because he gets to pass to Zion and RJ in transition. That’s bogus and you know it.

I give you creativity points, because you’ve clearly run out of material. Also thanks for clarifying you quality of judgement. You and Howard Garfinkel are the only two people who saw Hurley in Paulus. I now know what we’re dealing with here.

Every PG's passes turn into missed shots. Almost no one shoots over 50%, so most of the PGs passes turn into missed shots. And, I'll admit that Tre loses some assists when guys blow open 3s. But it isn't like the PG did a lot to get a 3pt shooter a great look. That is technically an assist, but the passer did almost nothing to engineer the shot.
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Look, the half court O hasn't been great all year. When we get steals and run outs, it really pads everyone's stats. Tre isn't bad at running the half court O. He's been good. But we act like he's been elite, but that isn't really the case.
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To be fair, the three point horribleness by this team leads to a crowded paint, and he can't effectively find people or penetrate vs such a crowded area.
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Really, it is all about the 3pt shooting.
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We knew it would be bad. But the reality has been far, far worse than even our worst case projections. Tre and AOC have been huge letdowns in this regard. Cam is slightly worse than we'd hoped, and Zion and RJ are at the low end of their reasonable projections from 3. But Z and RJ had lowered expectations, so that is even worse. Jack's early success gave us hope, but that has retracted.
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Really, if we'd make a few more threes, everything would get better.

 

[vcugreg]

Honestly, the 3’s we were chucking last night were a lot of times rushed and after one pass. I would rather our guys move the ball around and either find a mid-range shot from ft range, yes i know we suck at those, or shots in the paint even when contested over these wild and errant 3’s. There’s gotta be a point where the team stops chucking 3 after 3 in the hopes of breaking a slump. True, the defenses collapse on them in the paint but I’d rather make half our shots in the paint contested than shoot ourselves out of a somewhat close game at times last night.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

There is no alternative. WE HAVE TO START MAKING 3s.

Imagine this statement in the 90s.
PPG averages haven’t changed, what gives?

Maybe I’m just completely lost over here and missing the picture. I think the simple logic is changing our offense so it’s not based around 3PT shooting... I don’t know what that change is but we are seriously selling ourselves, averaging 26 attempts a game. You know the scary part? The WORSE we shoot, the MORE we shoot.

 

[saGz777]

Certainly not trying post, “this bench guy should get more PT” but JRob got some decent run last year and probably could hit a few outside shots relative to what we are getting from others. Maybe too big of a reach but his energy seems to be there...but freaking injuries!

 

[dukehokie]

Every PG's passes turn into missed shots. Almost no one shoots over 50%, so most of the PGs passes turn into missed shots. And, I'll admit that Tre loses some assists when guys blow open 3s. But it isn't like the PG did a lot to get a 3pt shooter a great look. That is technically an assist, but the passer did almost nothing to engineer the shot.
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Look, the half court O hasn't been great all year. When we get steals and run outs, it really pads everyone's stats. Tre isn't bad at running the half court O. He's been good. But we act like he's been elite, but that isn't really the case.
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To be fair, the three point horribleness by this team leads to a crowded paint, and he can't effectively find people or penetrate vs such a crowded area.
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Really, it is all about the 3pt shooting.
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We knew it would be bad. But the reality has been far, far worse than even our worst case projections. Tre and AOC have been huge letdowns in this regard. Cam is slightly worse than we'd hoped, and Zion and RJ are at the low end of their reasonable projections from 3. But Z and RJ had lowered expectations, so that is even worse. Jack's early success gave us hope, but that has retracted.
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Really, if we'd make a few more threes, everything would get better.

Why are you punishing Tre in your mind, because the coach is drawing up good effective plays to get lottery picks open? Your argument is silly and you’ve provided no proof whatsoever to determine Tre as an average half court floor general. None. Just three long, insufferable posts.

 

[BeerPoisoning]

Certainly not trying post, “this bench guy should get more PT” but JRob got some decent run last year and probably could hit a few outside shots relative to what we are getting from others. Maybe too big of a reach but his energy seems to be there...but freaking injuries!

JRob gets junk minutes when the game is out of reach. I’m not debunking your idea becsuse truth be told, I have no idea what he’s capable of besides making a couple threes...... but I’ve also never seen him play 1 minute in any game at a point where the game could be in question. So, maybe we’ll trust the GOAT’s decision on him sitting it out.

 

[PatrickYates]

Imagine this statement in the 90s.
PPG averages haven’t changed, what gives?

Maybe I’m just completely lost over here and missing the picture. I think the simple logic is changing our offense so it’s not based around 3PT shooting... I don’t know what that change is but we are seriously selling ourselves, averaging 26 attempts a game. You know the scary part? The WORSE we shoot, the MORE we shoot.

Because it is circular. Teams know that Duke will destroy them if we can get good looks attacking the basket. Conversely, we might not be able to make many threes. So, teams start out by restricting the paint as much as possible. Essentially, they dare us to make threes. If we make some, they have to extend their defense. This opens up the lane for Tre, Zion, and RJ to eviscerate the other team's D. If we don't make threes, then the defense contracts even further. The 3s get more open, and driving lanes get even smaller and more restricted.
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Thus, when we make some 3s we take less of them because other options are available and attractive. When we don't make threes, the 3s get even more open. We have to take them, because making 3s is the only way to get the opposing D to come out to the perimeter, thus opening up the lane.
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We just have to make more 3s. Then we'll take less.

 

[dukehokie]

JRob gets junk minutes when the game is out of reach. I’m not debunking your idea becsuse truth be told, I have no idea what he’s capable of besides making a couple threes...... but I’ve also never seen him play 1 minute in any game at a point where the game could be in question. So, maybe we’ll trust the GOAT’s decision on him sitting it out.

He played a 3 game stretch last season when Jav an Ques were out. He was efficient in the shots he got. He also played good defense. I personally don’t think he’d hurt us. Just my opinion.